VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: 96jetta on January 04, 2009, 01:49:08 pm
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ive got 300+ psi in all cylanders and all the timing marks line up. however she still doesnt even caugh :(. is there something im over looking? or has some thing gone tarribly wrong?
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glow plugs? Live to pump? pump primed? all of these would contribute to a no run situation! hope this helps
pete
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prim the pump??
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Yup!, crack the nuts on the injectors and turn the motor over until diesel starts to seep out of each injector. a lift pump would would help here too.
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Try to pullstart it. I´ve had some troubles in my days with cranking and cranking even though I primed the pump and what not. And they still don´t start. And when pulled they always come to life. Sometimes the starter doesn´t manage to get the last air out of the system.
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glow plugs?
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oh ya ive done that and i got fuel in all the lines. but i cheacked the power to the glow plugs and i got a steady 0 DCV :(. thats what i assume the problem currently lies
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Check glow plug fuse.
check blue/white wire connection on temp sender for glow plug relay.
check glow plug relay.
if you really need to start it right now, run a jumper wire from the battery positive to the glow plug bus, count to 15, then disconnect the wire and run inside the car and crank it over.
probably the glow plug fuse though. Does the light come on?
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does it have a block heater? plug that in for a good half hour or so and that should help. 300+ psi compression with glow plugs should start down to -5C without much trouble. maybe a lumpy idle, but thats it. when its cold things shrink, and fuel lines harden, so usually air leaks into the system, compounding the problem...
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ya the glow plug light still comes on. and i tryed pluggin in the block heater it caughed then died again
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check the fuse.
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its like #15 right? the pne for engin electronics?
cuz that one is good. but ive heard of a glow plug relay and m tryin to find where that is but no luck yet
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I know this is probably a stupid question, but what year is the car you are working on?
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96 it was made in febuary if it makes a difference
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Just to avoid confusion... the yellow light on the dash has nothing to do with the glowplugs having power (unfortunately :wink:) and the engine management fuse (if equiped) is not the glow plug fuse.
The glowplug fuse is the big silvery strip in a small black plastic box bolted to the firewall to the left of the brake booster... has two big red wires coming out of it.
On the MK3s there is sometimes another glow plug fuse in a pink fuse holder at the top of the fuse panel on the drivers side under the dash.
The glow plug relay is also on the fuse panel... it's a tall rectangular box on MK2s and a fatter square box on MK3s.
Regardless of chassis the workaround from a troubleshooting perspective is to run a heavy wire from the positive terminal on the battery directly to the copper glowplug buss bar for 20-30 seconds and then try to start the car.... this bypasses both the relay and the fuse.
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there is no wires or box on the fire wall at all. is it hidden behin something or possibly some where else
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Correct that the glow plug light has nothing to do with glow plugs getting power. i was just making sure that the relay was trying to turn on the glow plugs ;)
I think on all MKIIIs the glow plug fuse is above the fusebox. It will be a very large fuse (50A) which you can find a replacement at most car stereo shops.
i dont remember the part number of the relay off the top of my head but on the side of it is printed 'glühsteurgerat'.
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its a normal straight glass fues?
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no, it's a flat blade of copper. big piece of flat copper.
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looks like the one on the left, but its orange or red.
(http://www.evilution.co.uk/info/3fuse.jpg)
edit: dont know right from left lol!
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ya that one is good its not cracked or split. should i chang it anyway?
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do you have a multimeter? or a test light?
you are talking about the huge fuse above the fusebox right? the fuse in question is MUCH larger than the fuses 1-22 on the fusebox itself.
Is there a story here or did you just come out to the car and try to start it?
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is there another set of fuses behind the 1-22?? and what do u mean story? lol
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Story. As in, did you do an engine swap? Did you just buy the car? Was it recently abducted by aliens and now it wont start? that kinda story :)
The fuse in question is on top of the fusebox and mounted horizontally, not vertically like the rest of the fuses (1-22). It is mounted with the other relays on top of the fusebox. its going to be kinda hard to see, so take a flashlight.
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ya i found it blown appart lol. oh got ya. well i bought the car in the summer it had been sitting around in a lot for a while but ut ran good. so i added more boost (ran a good 20psi :D). then i decided to c how fast it would go got up to 192kph and 4200rpm. it ran rough after that. then not at all :(. so i started pulling it appart and i found lifter shards all across the top of the head. so i pulled the head off did the guasket cheacked the valves put it all back to gether with a new belt and tentioner. and it still doesnt wana start :(
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you found the fuse blown apart?
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ya it blew it self apart like it normally would theres a crack in the middle of it. is this not normal?
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It is perfectly normal for a blown fuse :p go get a new one and you should be good to go!
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lets hope :). thanks for all the help guys
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no prob. it was fun :)
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Yup!, crack the nuts on the injectors and turn the motor over until diesel starts to seep out of each injector. a lift pump would would help here too.
I dont know if its just me, but every time Ive had my injectors off the car, or even when I removed the cylinder head and replaced it with a new one, I didnt have to prime the injectors or anything?
Was I just lucky or am i missing something? Twas the ABL engine.
Fired up after a couple of turns
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The ABL is a gas engine so there is more than one conversation happening here.
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No, the ABL is the diesel engine code for the T4 vans in europe. I sold a starter for such an engine yesterday. It´s the same engine as the AAZ.
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true. keep in mind that the system is self bleeding. no real need to crack the lines unless all of the entire fuel system has been drained of fuel.
Very early versions of the Ve system actually had a primer pump installed on the fuel filter housing but it was a one year only type of deal.
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true. keep in mind that the system is self bleeding. no real need to crack the lines unless all of the entire fuel system has been drained of fuel.
Very early versions of the Ve system actually had a primer pump installed on the fuel filter housing but it was a one year only type of deal.
cracking the injector lines is a good way to troubleshoot priming issues and save the starter though :wink:
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making 155 bar (hydraulic pressure too might i add) on four injectors probably takes some energy.
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I dont know if its just me, but every time Ive had my injectors off the car, or even when I removed the cylinder head and replaced it with a new one, I didnt have to prime the injectors or anything?
Was I just lucky or am i missing something?
cracking the injector lines is a good way to troubleshoot priming issues and save the starter though :wink:
And I think that's the subtle difference... cracking the line is a *troubleshooting* technique IMHO, not a required step to prime the system. The pump is pushing 200 bar fuel thru the hard lines... a little bit of air in the lines is not going to hold it up. So, not a required step to "prime" anything.
On the other hand, as a troubleshooting technique it is very reassuring to crack a hard line and see the far end leak a little diesel... tells you almost everything is working and you're almost there !!
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No, the ABL is the diesel engine code for the T4 vans in europe. I sold a starter for such an engine yesterday. It´s the same engine as the AAZ.
Damn !!!! I hate it when I do that!
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:D :D
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i put in new glow plugs and a fuse so thats covered but it still doesnt even cough :( where do i go from here?
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oh ya ive done that and i got fuel in all the lines. but i cheacked the power to the glow plugs and i got a steady 0 DCV :(. thats what i assume the problem currently lies
What voltage to you have now?
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10.56 DCV was the highest but the battey is charging cuz it was dead so that might have some thing to do with it. is there any reason that the cam would flip 180 deg out?
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help please
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Well, this thread has become a dogs breakfast. Lets start over:
- you were roaring along at 4200 RPM on the highway and it sounds like you blew out the timing belt 'cause all the lifters shattered
- you pulled the head and believe all the valves survived because the cam was able to move them
- you have replaced the glow plugs, relay, and confirm that you have at least 10V at the glow plug buss
- you've reinstalled the head and timing belt and have aligned at least some of the timing marks
- it sounds like you're getting fuel to the injectors
If the above is pretty much the story, then:
- have you done the full timing setup (crank, cam, pump), with dial indicator, as per the service manual? My sig has a HOW-TO with some pictures that may help.
- what *exact* compression are you getting, on each cylinder?
Diesels need fuel, at the right time, with enough compression to light it up. Sounds like you have fuel, so you need to carefully check the timing *and* confirm the exact compression on each cylinder. Otherwise you're just guessing and throwing parts at it, IMHO. :roll: :wink:
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no one in this area had a guage the went higher than 300psi. so all the cylanders have 300 psi+. and no there has benn no dial indicator used at all. just the timing tools that vw has (cam lock and pump pin) and the mark on the bell housing
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Then your pump needs timed. Go get the stuff and set the value, maybe then you can get it going. .95-1.05 mm or approx .039"
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no one in this area had a guage the went higher than 300psi. so all the cylanders have 300 psi+. and no there has benn no dial indicator used at all. just the timing tools that vw has (cam lock and pump pin) and the mark on the bell housing
Do yourself a favor and get a compression gauge and the dial indicator, I got my compression gauge at Harbor Freight Tools years ago for $29 with a vw adaptor that was extra. Guess what, they have a set now that has a bunch of adaptors with it in a case for $24.99, I just looked at it and it reads up to 1000 psi, #93644-OVGA made by some company called US General which is the name mine is too and it's worked fine for 18 years so far. Harbor Freight's phone # to order is 1-805-338-3000. I would post the link but I don't know how to do that yet. There are lots of places you can get the timing tool and for sure somebody here can direct you to the best place without payiing a fortune. If you are going to mess with these diesels you will be lucky to just get one started without them and you are not to that point yet let alone set it to run the way it should. Timing these without the indicator is like shooting a gun with your eyes closed and I'm not exadurating a bit as far as puting it where it is supposed to be. Also if you don't have compression there is no reason to go any farther. If you are lucky enough to get it sarted before you get it timed with the indicator don't just accept it as being right. It doesn't take any time at all and then you know where you are at but you defiatly need these tools and you will be using them a lot more than you think. I think you're getting pretty close now though, God Luck :D
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how does this whole dial indicator thin work?
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http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=28
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how does this whole dial indicator thin work?
I'm pretty sure it's in the Bently book and I hope you have one of them too, that's the best book. It's kind of hard to explain it without you seeing the indicator tool and again I don't know how to do the link post thing but I'll try, and if one of you other guys see me do something wrong here make sure to set him straight. The tool is in 2 parts, the adaptor and the indicator. First take out the plug that is centered between the injector lines on the pump and don't loose the little sealing washer. I am assuming that you do have the cam, crank and pump all set right as far as the timing belt goes so I'm not gonna get into that part. All you have to do now is set the engine up with Cylinder #1 on top of it's compression stroke by aligning the timing marks in the big timing hole on the trans and making sure it is not 180 out. I'm not sure what type your valve cover is but if it has the filler cap on the left close to the pump you can just take the cap off and make sure that #1's cam lobes are both up in the both closed position, this also only works if the engine doesn't have the plastic oil baffle installed. If the valve cover is a different type or it has the cover-baffle thing then you have to remove it to make sure the engine is not i80 out. Now that you are sure it is on #1 you screw the adapter into the hole you took the plug out of. Now stick the indicator in the adaptor and slide it in till the gauge is in about the halfway or 2m/m position to preload it and tighten the clamp on the adaptor. Now slowly rotate the engine counterclocwise with a wratchet on the crankshaft until the gauge just stops moving backwards. Be careful you don't loosen the cranknut doing this, also wedging the flywheel with screwdriver will work too and you can watch the gauge better. Now that you have found the point where the gauge just stops, turn the little outer ring on the dial so it points to 0. Now you rotate the engine back to #1 TDC again going clockwise. The gauge should now be reading .95-1.05 and if it's not in that range the pump timing has to be adjusted. Again I am assuming that your belt, crank and cam are all in phase you should be able to put the injector sprocket locking pin in the proper holes on the sprocket and the pump bracket, a 7/16 or similar deep well socket will work if you don't have the exact locking pin. Now that the sprocket is locked you loosen all the pump mounting bolts enough that you can just tap on the pump to advance it or retard it. Advance means moving the top of the pump closer to the valve cover and retarding is back from it and advance is higher on the indicator, retard is less. This is where you will see how little movement of the pump it takes to put the indicator needle where you want it and you should aim for 1.00 M/M. Now that you have it there start tightening up the mounting bolts making sure the gauge doesn't move in the pocess, if t does you have to keep tapping it to keep it right. Now you are timed and for God's sake don't forget to pull the pump sprocket lock pin back out. Remove the dial indicator from the adaptor, remove the adaptor, put the plug back in with the little brass washer and you are now done. Now if the compression is pretty good, your injectors and pump are good, glow plugs working and a non-restricted fuel flow you should have a pretty good running engine. This looks like a lot of *** to do but really there is nothing to it and again the belt timing has to be right before you do this but with the tools there is nothng to it and most of all it is RIGHT. You can do a search on this site for timing tools and if I were you I'd get the whole set that has the locking pin, belt tensioner pin wrench,cam lock and you will be set, don't forget the compression gauge. HAPPY MOTORING :D
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My sig has a HOW-TO
how does this whole dial indicator thin work?
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/vwaldon/SiskoAnimated.gif)
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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My sig has a HOW-TO
how does this whole dial indicator thin work?
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/vwaldon/SiskoAnimated.gif)
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Yeh, I just saw it after I typed all this *** HaHa :lol:
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Yeh, I just saw it after I typed all this *** HaHa :lol:
S'all good... lots of different perspectives are useful here. :D
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ill do that. but ive found the cam 180 out at TDC twice now what would cause that?
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and i made sure it was in the right place the first time
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The cam goes around 2 times to every 1 time the crank does. So there are 2 TDCs, as long as you have the IP timed correctly to the cam it shouldn't matter.....That being said the IP can be timed wrong to the rest of the engine...ask me how I know :oops:
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so a coat hanger in the piston would be a good friend then? :oops:
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Just get the right tools and follow the instructions, as written... no need for coat hangers, worrying about how many revolutions everything does, etc etc etc.
There's no way for the cam to be correct and then suddenly shift exactly 180 degrees... if the cam sprocket is loose it *can* shift... but your valves would have very likely met your pistons... again.:cry:
If you follow the procedure...to the letter...*everything* will align as the VW gods intended. The cam will be in the right spot, the engine will be the right spot, the pump will be in the right spot, and if your engine is simply not starting because of timing it will then start.
This implies rounding up the required tools: a cam lock, a pump lock, a dial indicator. If you don't have this stuff at this point and can't/won't get it I'd really recommend towing the car to a mechanic who does. We're 4 pages into this thread and there's really not much else to say, IMHO, until the timing is known to be good. :wink: