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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: rov716y on December 21, 2008, 04:54:08 am
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i swapped out a 1.5 auto petrol and put a 1993 aaz in my series 1 mk1 about 6 months ago.
in that time i have done several things that have now made it a lot quicker than my mk1 gti.
i am still on a stock k03 turbo but i have fitted a manual boost controler and completely shut it off so my turbo is boosting to its own limit which is 19 psi. i have removed the stock pin out the top of the pump and fitted a modded one so i get lots off fuelling under boost. i have turned the fuel screw up as far as i can so it will still idle ok. i have rotated the pump towards the engine a little to advance the timing and removed a shim from the spring behind the plate at the front of the pump.
is their any other 'free mods' i can do? or is that about it?
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Did you remove the shim from the rev governor? It's a 'fork' that has three separate springs inside.
You will get a lot more performance still if you modify your governor. You're supposed to add shims to it, not remove :)
Search 'gov mod' or 'governor mod' - there's a guide here somewhere.
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hes talking about the timing piston in the bottom.rightmI thought that wasnt a worthwhile modd.
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hes talking about the timing piston in the bottom.rightmI thought that wasnt a worthwhile modd.
yes thats what i done and it does seem to off given me a little power. only done that this morn but deffo quicker.
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Did you remove the shim from the rev governor? It's a 'fork' that has three separate springs inside.
You will get a lot more performance still if you modify your governor. You're supposed to add shims to it, not remove :)
Search 'gov mod' or 'governor mod' - there's a guide here somewhere.
i've heard about doing something to the govener but never quite 100% understood what needs to be done.
will have a search and a read
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The goernor mod is shimming the main spring about 1/4" of an inch. The way I understand it is idle, intermediate, and main. The main spring is the biggest of the 3 springs in the assembly. Get some small SAE washers and stack them up on the shaft, put the spring on, slide it back together and your done. I have done 2 and it is really hard to do by hand and one person, if you have 2 people it isnn't bad, but the spring is nuts trying to get it back together.
What this does is allows the pump to fuel longer and as a result you should have more power in higher RPMs.
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The goernor mod is shimming the main spring about 1/4" of an inch. The way I understand it is idle, intermediate, and main. The main spring is the biggest of the 3 springs in the assembly. Get some small SAE washers and stack them up on the shaft, put the spring on, slide it back together and your done. I have done 2 and it is really hard to do by hand and one person, if you have 2 people it isnn't bad, but the spring is nuts trying to get it back together.
What this does is allows the pump to fuel longer and as a result you should have more power in higher RPMs.
so will the engine rev higher or just rev harder?
i'm guessing i'm at betwen 120 and 130 bhp at the moment what sort off increase will this see? 5 bhp? 20bhp? surely no more than that. my aim is 150bhp. if this governer mod doesn't give me that is their anything i can do to the injectors?
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easy rov,if you go any more you will need a bigger clutch :lol:
how about a free flow exhaust,your still on the 1.6D exhaust are you not?
Bert
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The engine will rev higher and should make more power longer into the RPM range....if you want real power take a trip to the vendors section and see a man named Giles. He is the true pump guru.
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If your still on stock exhaust you will be in trouble with egts.Need to open that thing up. :)
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If your still on stock exhaust you will be in trouble with egts.Need to open that thing up. :)
Hellz yeah buddy.
But not technically a free mod :oops:
unless you steal some signs and have a welder and the skills to boot.
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I may have mis-understood the gov mod but I thought that the standard gov has two elements..
- the first weak spring progressively reduces fuel delivery rate from about 2500rpm
- the second spring kills the fuel at hugh revs effectively giving the revlimiting effect
The gov mod effectively eliminates the first stage so you get full fuel up until the point the second spring cuts in and acts as a rev limiter.
So it should have little effect on rev ceiling but make it rev much harder.
Downpipe is what you really need though...
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You need to shim the main spring. Just put something in to compress it by 3/16"-1/4". That will allow it to fuel further up the RPM band instead of it cutting fuel at 3500.
Here is a picture, you can't see the idle spring as it is not there, but if you can imagine it being on the open end...it has been almost a year since I did one... I went with a couple more washers than what is pictured here, but this is the idea. From what I gather you lose serious drivabiltiy if you shim any spring but the biggest main one. It will rev like crazy after you do this.
I also found out that you might have to do some adjustments to the fuel and idle screws. Since one thread makes a big difference in those screws you will understand that taking the top off of the pump and not getting it exactly where it was before is hard. The pumps bolt holes had enough slop in mine to not line up correctly, that and my way of holding the governor back with a screw driver to get the top back on was challenging enough without trying to line it all up. replace all the seals you take apart as well so you don't have to do it 2 times like me.
(http://www.66rover.com/TDIswap/TDI%20Parts%20121307/slides/PICT1779.JPG)
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so will the engine rev higher or just rev harder?
i'm guessing i'm at betwen 120 and 130 bhp at the moment what sort off increase will this see? 5 bhp? 20bhp? surely no more than that. my aim is 150bhp. if this governer mod doesn't give me that is their anything i can do to the injectors?
You will achieve both. The main reason for the giv mod is to allow more power in the upper rev range, but you can also increase the rev limit.
As for your predicted power, you might just touch 120 hp after you have made the governor mod - no way you can get 130 hp with K03 turbo and stock exhaust. I would imagine your engine is currently around 100-110 hp, but all that torque makes it much quicker than a gas engine with the same power :wink:
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easy rov,if you go any more you will need a bigger clutch :lol:
how about a free flow exhaust,your still on the 1.6D exhaust are you not?
Bert
i know i'm running my 1.9td on a 1.6dn/a exhaust. i am saving to sort this. need about £350 to get one made for her. or i could get a downpipe made up so i can fit an off the shelf gti system.
and clutch i was on the understanding the aaz clutch was the biggest you can get into an 020 box?
i will do this governer mod once i syked myself up enough to take the top off my pump.
i was toying alittle with getting another k03 and running twin turbo's one for cylinder 1&2 and another for 3&4. which would be a nice little project. i could even get 4 turbo's and run 1 per cylinder. hmmm my minds running away again so i'll stop. :D
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210mm clutch with the 16V petrol pressure plate is supposed to be a more hp friendly set up :wink:
Bert
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You can find 2.5 inch stainless steel catback exhausts on eBay.de for ~270£
-much better flow than any stock system and quite enough for until about 300 hp.
As for the clutch, the AAZ is biggest that fits (it's 210 mm, right? ), but you should look into SRE or SPEC clutches. You'll need a stronger pressure plate and grippier disc pretty soon!
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-much better flow than any stock system and quite enough for until about 300 hp.
Dyno proven? My 2,5" exhaust restricted at less than 200hp. Didn“t dyno, gteched only. TDIs and gassers are different than IDIs.
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-much better flow than any stock system and quite enough for until about 300 hp.
Dyno proven? My 2,5" exhaust restricted at less than 200hp. Didn“t dyno, gteched only. TDIs and gassers are different than IDIs.
Yes, it could be I remember a TDI dyno run.
But somehow it's peculiar that a 2.5" system will restrict power at 200 hp (gas engines can run 500 hp with 2,5" after all). Shouldn't that relate to about 300 IDI hp anyway?
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You can find 2.5 inch stainless steel catback exhausts on eBay.de for ~270£
cat back? cat!! only got a back box on it any way lol but its only a 1 3/4 " system any way. and mild steel.
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Cat back means that it's not a complete turbo-back system, it starts from where you would have your cat if you had one...
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Cat back means that it's not a complete turbo-back system, it starts from where you would have your cat if you had one...
a 1979 golf with a 1993 engine.
going to have to be custom :x
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Cat back means that it's not a complete turbo-back system, it starts from where you would have your cat if you had one...
a 1979 golf with a 1993 engine.
going to have to be custom :x
An exhaust for a Mk1 TD would fit - the downpipe is the same and the turbo is in the same location.
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Cat back means that it's not a complete turbo-back system, it starts from where you would have your cat if you had one...
a 1979 golf with a 1993 engine.
going to have to be custom :x
An exhaust for a Mk1 TD would fit - the downpipe is the same and the turbo is in the same location.
chances of finding on is slim to none!!!!
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just rang around everywhere for a mk1 1.6td turbo pipe and nowhere can get one just refere me to custom places.
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just rang around everywhere for a mk1 1.6td turbo pipe and nowhere can get one just refere me to custom places.
eBay.de
Plenty of choice
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just rang around everywhere for a mk1 1.6td turbo pipe and nowhere can get one just refere me to custom places.
eBay.de
Plenty of choice
what are they called in german? I've looked before and had found one (the guy never answered me for the postage) but that was the only time I saw one.
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Golf I auspuff
Golf I sport auspuff
Golf I edelstahl auspuff - that's for stainless steel
...also try Golf I GTI auspuff ( and also try "Golf 1" in place of "Golf I")
You know, any Mk1 exhaust with the right tube size will fit... You'll have to make your own downpipe anyway, no matter where you buy.
So it's OK to use a Golf GTI exhaust, as long as it has a large enough pipe diameter. There are 2.5 inch stainless systems available on many eBay shops, for example.
I ordered my 2.5-inch stainless system here:
http://cgi.ebay.de/Gr-A-Edelstahl-Sportauspuff-VW-Golf-1-1983-971401C_W0QQitemZ220321034401QQihZ012QQcategoryZ73656QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem
...very nice quality, but I haven't tried it yet. There's no reason why it wouldn't fit anyway. I ordered a 'rennsport' system - that's for racing - so I only got one straight-through silencer.
There are more vendors there, with different options.
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thanks for the link 8)
but my mistake, I was thinking about the original MK1 GTD downpipe
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when building a full system do we need the fex joint like the one that 935 racer was selling?or that isnt needed?
in original form it doesent have...
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If you can weld (you should have had enough practice with ROV716Y) then make one, this was my first...
Mis-mash of bit's and pieces
180 degree 2.5" bend from powerflow
2.5" flexi from Ashley
manifold bracket from standard downpipe
90 deg and conector hacked from ecort cossy downpipe
All in the bits were £80 - so still pretty expensive
All stainless, but I wont bother polishing it.
(http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/448/1508061524sh6.jpg)
They got better....and cost me £13 for the flexi
A later one
(http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/1516/pipe2002kk2.jpg)
I've made 6 like this and they sold real quick, unfortunately I've changed job and lost the access to TIG and free stainless pipe. :(
You'll need a 180 degree mandrel bend and a 90 deg bend, I can tell you how to cut them if you fancy making your own.
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i would like to know as i am planning on doind it myself.
do i reaaly need a 180degree?
hard to find around here...
also does any stainless work?
i have a friend that works on a shop that makes house stuff in stainless and he gave me a 3 mt long pipe for free...
will it work or do i need some special one?
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but all that torque makes it much quicker than a gas engine with the same power
It'd feel quicker, not be quicker. Power is power, and is the bottom line.
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If you can weld (you should have had enough practice with ROV716Y) then make one, this was my first...
Mis-mash of bit's and pieces
180 degree 2.5" bend from powerflow
2.5" flexi from Ashley
manifold bracket from standard downpipe
90 deg and conector hacked from ecort cossy downpipe
All in the bits were £80 - so still pretty expensive
All stainless, but I wont bother polishing it.
(http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/448/1508061524sh6.jpg)
They got better....and cost me £13 for the flexi
A later one
(http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/1516/pipe2002kk2.jpg)
I've made 6 like this and they sold real quick, unfortunately I've changed job and lost the access to TIG and free stainless pipe. :(
You'll need a 180 degree mandrel bend and a 90 deg bend, I can tell you how to cut them if you fancy making your own.
i dont have access to any kind od stainless steel welder.
i did weld the mk3 mild steel downpipe into the mk1 mild steel downpipe to mate them together,
all i need it to get it as far back as a where a gti sytem would start them buy an after market gti system.
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but all that torque makes it much quicker than a gas engine with the same power
It'd feel quicker, not be quicker. Power is power, and is the bottom line.
Sorry, but that's not entirely true. You see, torque and power are just two sides of the same thing and you can actually calculate power if you know torque.
Let's say you have two engines.
Engine 1: 2.0 litre N/A gas. 100 hp and 170 Nm of torque.
Engine 2: 2.0 litre turbodiesel. 100 hp and 260 Nm torque.
The gas engine would make max. power around 5500 rpm, and max torque around 3000 rpm. The TD would make max power at 4500 rpm and max torque between 2000 and 3000 rpm roughly.
There is no question whatsover that the TD will be quicker (just compare any similar-hp gas and diesel equivalents and you'll see that).
Acceleration (especially overtaking) will be VASTLY quicker.
Top speed may be around the same for the both because at max rpm they will have equal power. Maximum power actually tells you little about a car's performance. All it tells you is how much torque you have AT HIGH RPM. Peak power helps little if another engine makes twice the accelerative force 80% of the rev range.
Power is nothing if you have no torque. Then again, torque will still make you go quickly with a moderately low max power. The reason why a TD will have lower max power, is because it has lower max revs - simple as that. With a TD, however, you will have much more torque over all the revs that you use - this is why the performance is stronger than hp would make you expect. Heck, this is why we frive TDs in the first place!!
Enzo Ferrari put it simply: "Horsepower sell cars, torque wins races".
I don't consider myself an expert, but I'd trust il Commendatore :)
In any case, merry christmas!!
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when building a full system do we need the fex joint like the one that 935 racer was selling?or that isnt needed?
in original form it doesent have...
Everybody tells me you need one.
I believe on the stock exhaust, the flex is provided by the flange between the cast downpipe and the first section of exhaust pipe. And even if it doesn't flex much, the cast elbow isn't going to crack under load, so it can 'force' the rest of the system to move about. And allow the flange connector to flex ever so slightly.
If you have a thin-walled normal exhaust tube connected to the turbo and no flex piece, changes are it will crack in time.
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my 2 cents, I hope no one minds:
HP=RPM X Torque/5252 One is a mathematical function of the other. This is why Hp and torque on a dyno sheet should always show HP and Torqu crossing at 5,252 RPM, unless the scales have been graphically shifted.
Torque is the amount of power per combustion stroke.
At peak torque, an engine is at high volumetric efficiency, making the most out of every breath of air, this also tends to coincide with lower fuel consumption.
Hp is the substitution of more combustion strokes over time, it is an accumulation of torque at a given RPM, how much total power that is accumulating at a given rpm. It is like the way a 2 stroke makes more power than a 4 stroke, it totals more power per time than a 4 stroker at the same RPM, but each power stroke makes much less torque than a 4 stroke does each stroke, but because you have two power strokes in the same period of time, it will deliver more power at the same rpm(as long as each power stroke of the two stroke equals more than half of the torque than each power stroke from the 4 stroker machine, which it better, or it is a piece of crap).
Does this help?
-Tony
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i dont have access to any kind od stainless steel welder.
You have a mig don't you? You can mig stainless easy with stainless wire.
Would probably last better in mild steel anyway.
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just rang around everywhere for a mk1 1.6td turbo pipe and nowhere can get one just refere me to custom places.
I have a new passenger performance one at the workshop I didn't use.
01484 664 017
:)
I post daily.
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I made the whole 3" stainless exhaust on my turbo cosworth vega with stainless wire in my lincoln 100 mig. it welds really nice actually, you have to use a bit more argon in your mix if I am not mistaken, No straight CO2 unless you want a perforated bead.
BTW, I have been driving my 1.6 jetta (engine in avatar) for about two weeks now, running 25 pounds of boost. It is a crop duster under load but MAN THE PULL!
-Tony
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Techtonics.com
they will make you a complete 2'5 system
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I made the whole 3" stainless exhaust on my turbo cosworth vega with stainless wire in my lincoln 100 mig. it welds really nice actually, you have to use a bit more argon in your mix if I am not mistaken, No straight CO2 unless you want a perforated bead.
BTW, I have been driving my 1.6 jetta (engine in avatar) for about two weeks now, running 25 pounds of boost. It is a crop duster under load but MAN THE PULL!
-Tony
Yes, get a flex joint. I paid $23 for mine from http://autozone.com
Before I sold my MIG to get my TIG, I welded S.S. just fine. My gas shop sold me a mix for this - 25% CO2 / 75% Argon. The mix gave great penitration and a good bead on the S.S. (with S.S. wire of course.) You'll need to crank up the amps a bit more than mild steel.
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Yep, I think that is the mix that the gas shop sold to me as well.
Stargon usually has a bit of notrogen in it as well for mild steel.
is the stock downpipe really that restrictive?
-Tony
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Mix is known over here as cogar
is the stock downpipe really that restrictive?
to any form of tuning - yes
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So at 25 psi boost like I am currently running, I would see a drastic improvement on performance? I would imagine that a large downpipe tapering to a slightly smaller tailpipe would be best.???? And of course, double wall pipe or heat wrapped downpipe/exhaust would improve flow.
On another note, I have a theory about Fuel pumps for performance our turbo diesels.
I may start another thread on it, but I have some to a realization about fueling. Fueling drives exhaust boost levels, but on a turbo IP, fueling follows boost. This is great for clean exhaust turbo cars, but it inhibits performance. I have had great luck so far with the NA pump, but it is really smokey under initial acceleration.
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is the stock downpipe really that restrictive?
-Tony
it is if its a 1.6n/a on a 1.9td!!
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I am only talking about the 4 bolt flanged, cast iron piece with the 90 degree bend coming to the front pipe from the turbo/wastegate housing with the graphite ring seal, is this a very restrictive piece?
The rest is all something that can be easlily modified. I made a 2.5 inch front pipe using the stock funnel flange. I have a straight pipe all the way back, and can hear the turbo spinning in the exhaust when it is sitting there idling (pretty cool). I wondered about that cast downpipe though.
-Tony
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yes! Look at the difference between three inch downpipes and the stock one. It's highest restrictive point is probably only 1.5inch in diam. It's brutal.
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I thought it might be a bit bigger... I never really looked at it really well. I have one more 90 degree stainless elbow from the 3" system on the vega. I will have to look at replacing this awful offender of free flow then!
-Tony
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the hardest part is the square manifold to pipe weld.Its hard to be able to keep clearance for the nuts.I had trouble with 2 1/2".
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I had the same trouble on the vega. It is not bad at all for flow to use a short 1-1/2 or 2 to 3 inch adapter that gives you room for the nuts, or heat it up with a flamewrench after to hammer in the nut areas for clearance. Using a different fastener to gain tool clearance can give you some options too I would imagine. If you read old turbo books, the best way to do this kind of thing is to use a large toroid shaped expansion chamber with your down pipe at some tangent. It helps to shape the flow of the turbulent gasses out of the turbo.
-Tony