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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: avocado on December 19, 2008, 05:58:41 pm
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I took a 1Z engine and added a Tintin M-TDI pump to it. Put the whole works in a Zuki Sidekick. After a lot of work, I am finally ready to get it to start.
I removed the glow plugs and cracked all of the fuel injection lines. Cranked until I saw fuel at the lines. Tightened the lines and reinstalled the glows. I tested the glow plugs and 2 of the 4 are bad. Should not be an issue anyway since temps are in the high 50's here in Ca...right?
Anyway, I've got +12V to the IP solenoid, fuel, 2/4 glow plugs working, I can get the lock pin in the IP lock at TDC. Only thing I can think of now would be to take off the valve cover and make extra sure that the cam is in place at TDC with the lobes up...and get the pump set (with a gauge) at 1mm lift at TDC...
When starting, the engine sounds like it is kinda going to start, but it just bounces around and coughs. I get a good bit of white nasty smoke that does not really smell like burnt diesel.
Any other ideas?
After all this work, I was hoping that it would kick right over.....mebbe not.
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I took a 1Z engine and added a Tintin M-TDI pump to it. Put the whole works in a Zuki Sidekick. After a lot of work, I am finally ready to get it to start.
I removed the glow plugs and cracked all of the fuel injection lines. Cranked until I saw fuel at the lines. Tightened the lines and reinstalled the glows. I tested the glow plugs and 2 of the 4 are bad. Should not be an issue anyway since temps are in the high 50's here in Ca...right?
Anyway, I've got +12V to the IP solenoid, fuel, 2/4 glow plugs working, I can get the lock pin in the IP lock at TDC. Only thing I can think of now would be to take off the valve cover and make extra sure that the cam is in place at TDC with the lobes up...and get the pump set (with a gauge) at 1mm lift at TDC...
When starting, the engine sounds like it is kinda going to start, but it just bounces around and coughs. I get a good bit of white nasty smoke that does not really smell like burnt diesel.
Any other ideas?
After all this work, I was hoping that it would kick right over.....mebbe not.
Whats this tintin TDi pump then?
I dont know the effect of that on the 1z but I would say you should check the timing of
1/ flywheel TDC mark
2/ camshaft
3/ injection Pump
Make sure it is all setup perfectly and give it another go. If its a used engine i would also change the timing belt if it was me :wink:
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Sounds like you either need more advance or to fix those glowplugs, or both.
Start by checking the cam/crank timing though. Also, make sure nothing is 180 out
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Should it run without the final gauge adjustment on the IP as long as everything else is set?
The only other problem that I might have would be my verification of TDC mark.....I got the engine without the trans bellhousing, so I took a probe and felt TDC at several points on either side of TDC and found the middle of those points and marked it. I was pretty meticulous about it, so I have a hard time believing that is the problem.....but you never know.
I also changed the TB et al when the engine was out of the car and made sure it was all set up right. I may have made a mistake, so I will check again.
Why must everything be a fight......uh.
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well I went back and verified that the cam locking plate tool goes into place perfect when the pump and crank are at TDC. Also that the lobes are up on #1 at TDC.
I tried with the pump a bit retarded and a bit advanced but I get the same result.....foul smelling white smoke and an engine that bounces all over the engine bay. FWIW, it cranks very smoothly when I disconnect the 12V from the IP solenoid.
So what must it be?
The only other thing that I can think of is that I do not have proper TDC, but if the method I used before did not work, what can I do now? Screwed? I was so thorough when I did that part b/c I knew how important it was......
One more thought.....since the crank has two #1 TDC's, does it matter which one the cam and IP is timed to? Just as long as it is properly timed to either one, it should work, right?
Anyone know of a good place in the San Diego area to take this thing to? I think I'm against a wall.
:oops:
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Have you talked to Tintin about it?
You should start by eliminating the glowplug possibility before spending money at a shop. It'll be the first thing they try
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OK, Ill get all 4 glow plugs working and try again.
Any thoughts on this: One more thought.....since the crank has two #1 TDC's, does it matter which one the cam and IP is timed to? Just as long as it is properly timed to either one, it should work, right?
That is in the back of my mind.
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For the purposes of timing, TDC is defined as:
- piston #1 is at the very top of its travel (TDC mark on flywheel aligned with pointer on bell housing). That only takes place at one point in the crankshaft's rotation.
- the camshaft is locked, with both valves for cylinder #1 closed and both lobes on the camshaft for #1 pointed up
- injection pump is locked with the locking pin in place.
That's the initial setup.. the dial indicator is then used to set the exact timing value.
Common ways this gets messed up are:
- flywheel installed wrong, so that the TDC mark doesn't mean piston 1 is at the top of its travel
- some injection pump sprockets have two holes that the timing locking pin can fit into
Both of the above can result in the symptoms you describe, so might be worth checking further.
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This may be out there to some, but it made my Golf go through 2 owners who dumped this car in desperation because it wouldn't start. I fixed it in 20 minutes...I had to laugh when I saw it because both PO's made a point of mentioning the timing was right on etc, and it even had a new cold start cable...which the original genius had soaked in soldering flux and soldered it nice, shiny and rigid...and prevented the cold advance the IP for gripping it properly = would not start. I could use it easily in the cab (in/out) and you could see the cable move in and out at the end but it was just a little to dark down the back of the IP to notice that the advance arm wasn't moving very much. Wanted to start but couldn't. I Changed it out and she starts on the first turn......
I have also seen a cold start cable that was not secured on its trip through the engine compartment and pulling it in and out just made the cable change its bent position, hardly any movement at the IP as well.
Shine a light down there and have someone work it sitting it the cab and make sure it's really moving well at the IP.
Cheers,
Andy
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Vincent....I had no way to verify TDC as I bought the engine alone with no transmission. I took a probe and carefully marked the flywheel where it made contact with my probe on either side of TDC. Took the measurement and went for the exact middle. Did this twice and the two measurements were within 1 mm of eachother, very, very close. I then made a pointer and put a mark on the harmonic balancer in order to give me TDC. Maybe I need to do this over again...? I just don't think it was off much.
Does anyone have a better method of finding TDC without the FW mark?
I guess I could get something and thread it into place and let the piston rest against it.....more concrete than my last method.....
Andy....i don't think this pump has a cold start adjustment...if it did....where would it be?
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Vincent....I had no way to verify TDC as I bought the engine alone with no transmission. I took a probe and carefully marked the flywheel where it made contact with my probe on either side of TDC. Took the measurement and went for the exact middle. Did this twice and the two measurements were within 1 mm of eachother, very, very close. I then made a pointer and put a mark on the harmonic balancer in order to give me TDC. Maybe I need to do this over again...? I just don't think it was off much.
Nope, I think that's a perfectly accurate way to do it.... at least on the flywheel side.
The harmonic damper as a significantly smaller radius so one could suspect that the mark on that side might be a bit less accurate to line up against... but I'd think it would get you close enough to at least get it running.
Does your IP sprocket have two holes for the pump lock ? It really sounds like it's a long way out of tune.
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Ya, I was thinking that since the Harmonic balancer is smaller than the FW, it would have to be less accurate, but if it does not even sputter that puts me at a loss.
There is only one pump locking place.....it is easy to find too. The only good thing about this is that the TB area is pretty accessible in this vehicle.
I guess it is off to the shop on monday.
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More thoughts:
Any chance that my MTDI pump is not set to properly work with the stock injectors I have in the car? Maybe the pop pressures are too far off?
Any chance that there is a different injector line pattern between the pump and the stock 1Z? IE injector's being mismatched to the output nipples on the pump? I think this one is a long shot...
I guess I will have to pull the #1 injector out and crank the engine by hand. I should get a squirt of fuel when the #1 lobes are pointed up.
Any other ideas?
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If there is a white smoke when cranking the engine, that mean the injector can open and fuel is injected.
Be sure for the firing order: 1 - 3 - 4 - 2
Nothing cloged in the intake?
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OK, I took off the injector lines and rotated the engine by hand. I can see a little squirt of fuel at each cylinder at roughly the same time the lobes are pointed up. At first, I rotated the engine 6 times and never saw fuel coming from the #1 injector. All of the others dripped fuel immediately. After many more turns, fuel finally started dripping from #1. I put the injector on #3 and pulled it out of the hole to see when it fired, but I never was able to see any fuel from it. Maybe I am not able to turn it fast enough by hand? My next test is to advance the timing by one tooth on the pump and see what happens. That does not seem right, as I already have tested the timing at several stages of advance (now at full advance) and it always behaved the same.
Does my little lock pin at TDC mean anything?
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OK, I took off the injector lines and rotated the engine by hand. I can see a little squirt of fuel at each cylinder at roughly the same time the lobes are pointed up. At first, I rotated the engine 6 times and never saw fuel coming from the #1 injector. All of the others dripped fuel immediately. After many more turns, fuel finally started dripping from #1. I put the injector on #3 and pulled it out of the hole to see when it fired, but I never was able to see any fuel from it. Maybe I am not able to turn it fast enough by hand? My next test is to advance the timing by one tooth on the pump and see what happens. That does not seem right, as I already have tested the timing at several stages of advance (now at full advance) and it always behaved the same.
Does my little lock pin at TDC mean anything?
yea you won't be able to develop enough pressure to get the injector to spray by hand...
Tintin, what do you recommend he set his timing to??? IIRC white smoke is unburnt fuel, and therefore indicates a retarded timing, correct??? maybe try increasing timing by 0.05mm and keep going up so the timing would be 1.05mm,1.10mm and so on.
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Turned the pulley on the pump counterclockwise one tooth (advanced, right?) and tried again. Engine turns over a lot smoother than before, but now no smoke. Crank and crank and crank, I know there is fuel at the injectors but no smoke and no coughing.
I guess I just need to find out when the injectors are firing. Apparently a little squirt of fuel out of the end of the line is not enough to tell.
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BTW, Tintin recommended that I set the pump at 1mm at TDC. I do not have a dial gauge. I will have to take it to a diesel mechanic who does have a gauge though...
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One last thought.....Im trying to start this thing with the stock Zuki battery (with a charger attached). It seems to turn over fine, but it does only have 475 CCA. Maybe I need more CCA's?
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Just tried turning in the fuel screw 1/2 turn at a time.....got clear to 3 turns in and no changes.
I put a few small drops of gasoline in the intake (glow's disabled) and cranked. Engine coughs for a half second on its own and thats it.
Again verified that my TDC mark is correct.
Someone on TDIclub mentioned that my injectors may have gone bad from sitting for a month or three? Have not had these pop tested.
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Oops. Musta been browsing too many threads at once; just noticed the top post that this is for a TDI IP/engine; of which I have no experience with. Only mk 2's...I have no iidea if your mTDI pump has the cold start advance on it. If it does though, it would be on the block side of the pump just in front of cyl #1.
Andy
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Turned the pulley on the pump counterclockwise one tooth (advanced, right?) and tried again. Engine turns over a lot smoother than before, but now no smoke.
Actually I think that retarded it.
Think of it this way, by turning the pulley counterclockwise on the belt the crank has to turn clockwise farther to make the IP turn to were it was.
I think if you turn the pump pulley clockwise two teeth you'll be in business. Let us know how it turns out. :)
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Actually I think that retarded it.
Think of it this way, by turning the pulley counterclockwise on the belt the crank has to turn clockwise farther to make the IP turn to were it was.
I think if you turn the pump pulley clockwise two teeth you'll be in business. Let us know how it turns out. :)
+1 on that thinking.
A mTDI pump may or may not have a cold start. It would be a lever at near the bottom of the pump between the pump and the engine.
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Well, I ended up taking it to a guy. He had it running within 2 hours. Apparently the 100 timing adjustments I made never quite hit the spot. He also said that there was a bit of air in the fuel lines....not sure how or why, because I checked the fuel filter several times and it always had fuel in it. It starts and runs happily, albeit pretty loud. He did not even have a timing gauge, and he said that it would be best to do the final adjustments with that. I have that on order, should be here fairly soon. Oddly enough, when I took it to him, I had the crank, cam and pump set at TDC. I could get the pin in the pump. He said it was quite a bit off....not sure how he did what he did but oh well. Static timing was perfect though.
I need to make a lot of little adjustments....clutch is out of adjusment and slips with anything more than half throttle. Need to take care of that.....but it made very good power before the slippage.
Things look ok so far.
Thanks again for the help!
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Well, I ended up taking it to a guy. He had it running within 2 hours. Apparently the 100 timing adjustments I made never quite hit the spot. He also said that there was a bit of air in the fuel lines....not sure how or why, because I checked the fuel filter several times and it always had fuel in it. It starts and runs happily, albeit pretty loud. He did not even have a timing gauge, and he said that it would be best to do the final adjustments with that. I have that on order, should be here fairly soon. Oddly enough, when I took it to him, I had the crank, cam and pump set at TDC. I could get the pin in the pump. He said it was quite a bit off....not sure how he did what he did but oh well. Static timing was perfect though.
I need to make a lot of little adjustments....clutch is out of adjusment and slips with anything more than half throttle. Need to take care of that.....but it made very good power before the slippage.
Things look ok so far.
Thanks again for the help!
which point in the clutch pedal does the clutch engage??? theres a bit of adjustment you can do even with the auto adjusting cable... mine started catching right at the end of the pedal for some reason, and so i played with it for about 15-20 mins and managed to fix it.
timing by ear sometimes is best with these motors, as doing it by the book does not take into account normal wear...
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timing by ear sometimes is best with these motors,
Yeah, if you know how they're supposed to sound it works fine. I did mine with a gauge and after a short time I just did it by ear and ran the same but sounded better (less rattley) :)
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timing by ear sometimes is best with these motors,
Yeah, if you know how they're supposed to sound it works fine. I did mine with a gauge and after a short time I just did it by ear and ran the same but sounded better (less rattley) :)
ya thats kind of what i meant, as in the gauge will get you very close to where it should be, and a final time by ear will get it closer to where it should be/where you want it to be.
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I goofed with it a bit more and got it to engage properly. I just had it set a bit tight. I put a new HD clutch on it, so holding capacity shouldn't be an issue.
It has plenty of power, but I haven't even been able to drive it during the day so I can't see if there's any smoke. It is pretty loud and tends to transmit a lot of noise into the cabin, but Ill try to help that with some sound deadening materials.
I can't wait to get it all dialed in.....got a special FIMC to go on it too, just need the hosing. Will also try to get a feel on EGT's and boost numbers for better tuning.
I'd post some pix, but I don't know where to upload them!
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You can also back-up the fuel screw if you think too much smoke.
With that tranny i suggest you to not to push so far the pump fueling, you cannot control the torq at low rpm like EDC can does.
TDI motor are much more noisy than IDI, especially with M-Pump.