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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: boosted_diesel_84 on December 13, 2008, 10:54:42 am
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ok, some of u have seen my build thread, so i will just post a link to it so u have an idea on what all was done,
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=15461
but when i make boost, its building up a lot of pressure in my cooling system and overflowing out the surge bottle, car is not overheating, and it only seems to do it when i build boost, i have correct 3 notch headgasket and ARP studs torqued to 80 ft. lbs, just as card that came with it said torqued in sequence. after about 200 miles i retorqued them to 80, and they had not changed at all,
my question is, should i tighten them just a little more? :?:
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I went for cake is good. Call John over there at Air cooled engines plus as I think he was your machinist and see what he recommends. He told me not to put studs in unless I was going to run lots of boost daily. He also said that to make sure to retorque them which you said you did, but maybe as soon as it got hot the first time as the studs are way better than the gasket. I don't know I am just guessing.
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yea, i was going to, but he is out of town all week at the PRI show, and i didnt really want to wait. because i have to drive 180 miles a day round trip to work, and i hate putting the miles on my A6 quattro, and this is the reason i built my diesel. it just really kind of sucks, i put in so much time, work, money and tried to do it right, then i have problems like this. :x
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your headgasket is BLOWN!
I voted NO.....I just went through this same problem!!!!
your fiber headgasket is GONE if your pressurizing the coolant system....mine NEVER overheated either..just keep burping coolant out the bottle.
I TQed my studs all the way to 100ftlbs and it did nothing for me...the gasket was blown in atleast 2 spots..but it looked like it may have been more like 4-5 leaks!
you waited way to long for a retorque! just like me.
if you wanted to retorque them you should have never drove it until you warmed the engine up with NO COOLANT pressure(no cap) and then let it fully cool down...then retorque.
that sucks man!! I totally know how you feel..
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=16090&highlight=
here is my bad luck beginning...and me slowly realizing my HG was blown ON MY TEST DRIVE!!!!!! :cry:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=16090&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105
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well the thing is, i had an 82 rabbit diesel with a blown head gasket, rad would stay cool, never even get warm, but it would just blow all the coolant out within a few minutes or running,
on the other hand, the motor in question, i drove 30 highway miles, and it lost such a small amount that it is just under the full line, and i have heat, and my rad is at the right temp, thats y i think the studs might just need 5-10 more ft. lbs cause it only happens under boost. plus ARP doesnt make studs for diesels, they are made for the gassers, which have no where near the cylinder pressure of a diesel, so maybe that 80 ft. lbs is fine in a gasser but a diesel needs a little more?
i am just trying to convince myself that i wont need to do the inevetable. haha. this sucks.
SO any Ohio guys wanna come to tiffin and have a "lets change jacks headgasket party" there will be beer and maybe strippers. haha
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you can try the reTQ...but I dont think it will help and if it does it will only help for a little while....I drove mine for a full tank of diesel before I finally believed it myself...I kept thinking/hoping/wanting it to be something else...
thats why I was willing to pay $140 for my custom MLS gasket from gaskets-to-go(gasketstogo.com) I dont want to worry about HG problems every time I boost........
at this point I would say you can try the reTQ..but I think it is really just a waste of time :oops:
sorry for your troubles dude....sucks
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I'm going to 100ft/lbs on my ARP's just because of all the problems you've had to suffer.
If you actually think about how much torque is on the stretch bolts when you turn them the extra rotations its wayyyyyy above 100ft/lbs.
You aren't going to strip the block out (i don't think?) and it's really not difficult to take the cam cover off and turn them.
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I'm going to 100ft/lbs on my ARP's just because of all the problems you've had to suffer.
If you actually think about how much torque is on the stretch bolts when you turn them the extra rotations its wayyyyyy above 100ft/lbs.
I think Zukgod1 went to 95ftlbs on his AAZ MLS gasket...he has been in some pretty high boost numbers with his and the only problem he had was turbos shaft breakage..not HG failure. I'm gonna tq mine(when I get it) to 95-100ftlbs aswell.
I dont like the fiber gasket AT ALL if you wanna reliable DD with higher boost numbers I would get a MLS...
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Yeah i have an Erling (earling?) metal HG for an AAZ and a spare cheap probably useless fibre one i got for 12$ from prothe. i'll just keep in the trunk as a spare? I dunno :P
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Sooooo.... any Ohio guys wanna come to tiffin and have a "lets change jacks headgasket party" there will be beer and maybe strippers. haha. the party has already started, i am tearing into it right now.
who on here was having the MLS gaskets made? wasnt there someting about a group buy? i want one now, 3 notch. let me know. thanks!!
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who on here was having the MLS gaskets made? wasnt there someting about a group buy? i want one now, 3 notch. let me know. thanks!!
that was me... :D I did not have time to wait for everybody to get the cash together for a Group buy so I just sent it to him....... you will be able to just call gasketstogo and order one now that I have sent the templated gasket in to him.(note my template gasket has extra cooling holes like the AAZ block and head....
http://www.gasketstogo.com/
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Food for thought - that torque spec is based on reaching 75% of the fastener yield. An additional 20 ft-lbs brings it to what? 90%? 95%? Who knows for sure, other than the ARP engineers. I'm not a gambling man and why I voted "no". If you need more fastener preload, upgrade to the 220k studs and torque accordingly.
Chris
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you will be able to just call gasketstogo and order one now that I have sent the templated gasket in to him.(note my template gasket has extra cooling holes like the AAZ block and head....
http://www.gasketstogo.com/
do i have to modify anything to make it work, since your template gasket had the extra cooling holes? also, is it available in the 3 notch style? and how long will it take?
Thanks!
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Food for thought - that torque spec is based on reaching 75% of the fastener yield. An additional 20 ft-lbs brings it to what? 90%? 95%? Who knows for sure, other than the ARP engineers. I'm not a gambling man and why I voted "no". If you need more fastener preload, upgrade to the 220k studs and torque accordingly.
Chris
I'm not saying over torquing the studs is a good practice..but I do know LOTS of the high HP cummins trucks have over torqued studs and headbolts.,,with pretty good success rates..
instead of over torquing the studs just get a MLS gasket and call it good...I think the real enemy is the fiber gasket...my.02
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you will be able to just call gasketstogo and order one now that I have sent the templated gasket in to him.(note my template gasket has extra cooling holes like the AAZ block and head....
http://www.gasketstogo.com/
do i have to modify anything to make it work, since your template gasket had the extra cooling holes? also, is it available in the 3 notch style? and how long will it take?
Thanks!
you might be able to run the custom MLS gasket without drilling holes in the head and block..but why not drill for the extra cooling and vapor ??? it's REAL easy to do and a worth while mod IMHO...
yes you can get the gasket in a 3 notch size..that's what I ordered..a 3 notch and a 2 notch.
they wont be done for 1-2 more weeks tho...
turnaround time now that he has/will have made them before is claimed to be 7-10 days....since mine was the first VW diesel he has done I am on my 2 week of waiting since you got my gasket...and 1.5 weeks worth of shipping(protesters closed airport so that's why this was so long)
if you wanna run high boost daily then I would say the MLS should be worth the wait....
download "skype" from the gasket to go site and call the owner "john" he is a cool guy and really easy to talk to and deal with.
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you might be able to run the custom MLS gasket without drilling holes in the head and block..but why not drill for the extra cooling and vapor ??? it's REAL easy to do and a worth while mod IMHO...
i have it all torn down now, and my plan is to just tip the head back, slide out old gasket and slide the new one in, i dont want to pull it all apart to drill it, everything was just redone about 400 miles ago. so it wont need milled again. will i need to get a different gasket made since mine wont have the holes drilled? i am unfamiliar with the 1.9's
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you might be able to run the custom MLS gasket without drilling holes in the head and block..but why not drill for the extra cooling and vapor ??? it's REAL easy to do and a worth while mod IMHO...
i have it all torn down now, and my plan is to just tip the head back, slide out old gasket and slide the new one in, i dont want to pull it all apart to drill it, everything was just redone about 400 miles ago. so it wont need milled again. will i need to get a different gasket made since mine wont have the holes drilled? i am unfamiliar with the 1.9's
I think the gasket I had them make should work with or with out the holes drilled...but i'm not 100% sure till I get it back...
man there is no way I would trust another fiber gasket on a uncleaned surface....mine only had about 300 miles on the rebuild and the fiber gasket made a mess of my surface mounting...no warped.....just dirty from the gasket....and if you go MLS you need or should have a even cleaner surface...with a mirror finish RA number..
if it was me I would take the extra 1 hour and do the cooling jacket mods...shoot you have done this much work on your engine, why not do it right the 2nd time? so your not in there for a 3rd?
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Sooooo.... any Ohio guys wanna come to tiffin and have a "lets change jacks headgasket party" there will be beer and maybe strippers. haha. the party has already started, i am tearing into it right now.
who on here was having the MLS gaskets made? wasnt there someting about a group buy? i want one now, 3 notch. let me know. thanks!!
Where are the party pics ??? :-D
I would have taken the head all the way off to be sure both surfaces were completely clean. Maybe something got on a surface first time around that allowed the leak to propagate.
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I voted no as well.
Just bite the bullet and 53 willys says and do it right.
You wont regret it unless you cut corners then all bets are off.
I'm running the MLS gasket with ARPs to 95' lbs. I'm also running 30 psi dang near daily. I'm sure I'll eat another turbo but I haven't had a HG problem to date. Come to think of it I've not heard of anyone running the MLS HG having a problem regardless of what fastener is being used.
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I voted no as well.
Just bite the bullet and 53 willys says and do it right.
You wont regret it unless you cut corners then all bets are off.
I'm running the MLS gasket with ARPs to 95' lbs. I'm also running 30 psi dang near daily. I'm sure I'll eat another turbo but I haven't had a HG problem to date. Come to think of it I've not heard of anyone running the MLS HG having a problem regardless of what fastener is being used.
I think the only MLS failure I have read about on a VW diesel is "andy"(I think that was his name?) and his compounded set-up with like 40+ boost and who knows what the drive pressure was??
I think for most guys the MLS will fix any HG issues..
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I think the only MLS failure I have read about on a VW diesel is "andy"(I think that was his name?) and his compounded set-up with like 40+ boost and who knows what the drive pressure was??
I think for most guys the MLS will fix any HG issues..
Add me to the list - but for my own laziness. MLS HGs are apparently far more sensitive to head warp than fiber gaskets. Be fully certain that your head is within spec (and probably best to be on the low end of that spec) for flatness.
Chris
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I think the only MLS failure I have read about on a VW diesel is "andy"(I think that was his name?) and his compounded set-up with like 40+ boost and who knows what the drive pressure was??
I think for most guys the MLS will fix any HG issues..
Add me to the list - but for my own laziness. MLS HGs are apparently far more sensitive to head warp than fiber gaskets. Be fully certain that your head is within spec (and probably best to be on the low end of that spec) for flatness.
Chris
yes they are very sensitive... that's about the only down fall to a MLS gasket...the RA finish on the head and block need to be VERY flat and VERY smooth....
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I say clean it good no matter what gasket your using.
I also voted no, I think once a gasket leaks it's toast, especially a gasket that's under high pressure. :(
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Reading one of Dave Vizards books on race engines,- Metal can be suprisingly elastic, monster torques on head fastenings can cause the bores to distort, discuss.
Also on some engines which pump coolant into the head first from the pump, the small head gasket coolant holes are there for a reason, to up the pressure in the head to raise the boiling point of the coolant there and prevent steam pockets at local hot spots. This doesn't apply here as coolant is pumped into the block first before transiting the head gasket into the head, then out to the radiator. But raising the coolant pressure in the block would make cavitation erosion less likely, discuss.
If you need a smooth sealing surface, the following method has done me fine.
1, Clean all the gasket crap and grot.
2, spray WD40 onto block surface, fairly thinly,
3, lay on head,
4, yank head,
5, look at resulting pattern,
6, where the oil is disturbed, the two components are touching,
7, with a really good flat VERY FINE oilstone work those areas of the head LIGHTLY,
8, wipe clean, spray another fine coat of oil,
9, repeat a dozen times or so until the entire surface oil is disturbed when the head is placed on the block.
10, who knows which is "flat", but the crush on the head gasket is now dead even, and will seal a treat. Methalated Spirits to remove the oil before you apply the gasket.
11, If your head was REALLY warped, congratulations, you now have a perfect seal, pity the camshaft will now probably seize and snap the cambelt. :twisted: There are limits.
The usual warnings apply, I am let out of the institution every other weekend, only a complete fool will try this, but it works for me. :wink:
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Reading one of Dave Vizards books on race engines,- Metal can be suprisingly elastic, monster torques on head fastenings can cause the bores to distort, discuss.
Some race / aviation builders have a torque plate they bolt the block prior to boring / honing to induce the distortion. It is a thick slab of steel with the bores and head bolt holes in place.
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Straight from ARP's website:
"As a practical matter, the thread length is always selected so that the thread shear strength is -significantly greater than the bolt tension strength."
In other words, the stud will break before ripping threads out of the block.
Chris
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I can vouch for that. I have done a fair bit of torque to failure testing at work, and the only time I have ever seen thread failure prior to fastener body failure it was directly attributed to the thread pitch diameter being so far off that when you put a bolt and nut together you could wiggle them around. It ended up stripping off the inside 1/3 of the thread pitch on the nuts.
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Think about it this way - in the stud / bolt, the stress raiser is focusing all the stress to the center of the stub / bolt and overlaps with the stress all around it. On the block, the stress raiser is spreading out the stress in a much wider area. So, everything being equal, the stud/bold will fail first.
The stress raiser is the bottom of the valley the "V" forms.
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BTW, if you want exact TQ, you need to know how much TQ it takes to get the bolt moving again. IE if it takes 15 ft/lbs, then if I retighten mine from 50 --> 65 I would have really done nothing.
Typically for a re-torque you need to back off the fastener a little bit (1/4 turn, according to Victor-Reinz) before bringing it up to the final torque. Also, V-R confirms the statement that the MLS gasket (for VW) needs no re-torque, though mine did take another 1/8 turn after a full heat cycle - chalk it up to torque wrench tolerance?
Chris