VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: regcheeseman on December 01, 2008, 06:25:59 am
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I've searched and searched and read countless threads but am struggling to find a mTDI solution that REALLY works.
When you dig you uncover little problems and issues with all of them, smoke, starting, lack of power etc
Anybody have a 100% solution yet, if so what is the recipe? or will the mTDI remain a flawed compromise?
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Giles says he can do an mTDI pump - if anyone can and have it work right it'd be him...
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No-one then!
Apart from the mythical Giles who 'says' he can build one - but so does the bloke down the pub!
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No-one then!
Apart from the mythical Giles who 'says' he can build one - but so does the bloke down the pub!
but Giles has proof... i'm sure he has more than a couple customers by now... he built a 5 cyl TDI pump 8)
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No criticism but it's the same old story, lot's of hearsay but no actual definite answers...
Also, mTDI people are probably not reading this thread as it is posted in the IDI section.
I did consider that when posting....I'll try the TDI guys. :D
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The earth is indeed round (I think...), but I have never personally traversed it's entire circumference myself nor seen it from space firsthand and do not actually personally know anyone who has. If you were to post a similar thread regarding the roundness of the earth, I would be giving answers that are definite to a similar degree.
Andrew
:D :lol: :D :lol: :D :lol: :D :lol:
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*chortle*
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The earth is indeed round (I think...), but I have never personally traversed it's entire circumference myself nor seen it from space firsthand and do not actually personally know anyone who has. If you were to post a similar thread regarding the roundness of the earth, I would be giving answers that are definite to a similar degree.
Andrew
:D :lol: :D :lol: :D :lol: :D :lol:
:lol:
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My last TD Jetta had 556K km on it. The average distance to the moon is 363K km.
Rather than driving back and forth to work, dance lessons, Girl Guides, and various playdates for my kids what I should have done is drive to the moon, turned around and then driven about 3/4 of the way back... at which point I could have taken some pictures to prove once and for all that the earth is actually flat.
But hey, don't take my word for it.... these guys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society) know the truth as well.
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The fact that the 4BTA is a fully mechanical pump...
The 4BT has emissions that are significantly worse than a VW e-tdi, which would be considered a drawback by many, but, you might not be one of those people.
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Well Jack, given that he's currently driving an IDI-mobile, I think we can safely assume that he's not one of those people... :)
(This little joke assumes IDI and m-TDI produce similar emissions, possibly an error, I have no 1st hand experience in that comparison.)
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Well Jack, given that he's currently driving an IDI-mobile, I think we can safely assume that he's not one of those people... :)
I'm pretty sure hes not one of those people, I just didn't want to make a blanket statement.
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I would guess you are someone that does care about emissions.
EDIT- but the better emissions of a computer controlled diesel is not enough to pull you away from mechanical pumps.
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We have no emissions here. I honestly think vehicle emissions are a drop in the bucket compared to others Im just glad we dont have to worry about it here. Its a pain.
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I've searched and searched and read countless threads but am struggling to find a mTDI solution that REALLY works.
When you dig you uncover little problems and issues with all of them, smoke, starting, lack of power etc
Anybody have a 100% solution yet, if so what is the recipe? or will the mTDI remain a flawed compromise?
With a hardly modified AAZ pump, mine makes enough power for me, though you may have another idea what "power" is. So far, mine starts just fine, although it hasn't been colder than 9*F. It has started smoking, but that may be from it really overheating when I lost the harmonic balancer and water pump pulleys. I think the rings either got weakened, or maybe coked up from getting too hot, as I also seem to have more blow by. I don't know what a "solution that really works" is, but mine works for me.
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If you feel the need for firsthand VW examples, how about PM-ing Tintin, Jimfoo, RabbitGTDguy or e-mailing Karl at Westyventures. Perhaps drop an e-mail to Giles, etc. A post on the Vanagon TDI Conversion Yahoo group would yield you countless firsthand reports of success with significant improvement over stock performance.
:roll: Amazing! I hadn't actually ever thought about doing that,
Which brings me back to the original post of all conversions having 'issues'
With a hardly modified AAZ pump, mine makes enough power for me, though you may have another idea what "power" is. So far, mine starts just fine, although it hasn't been colder than 9*F. It has started smoking, but that may be from it really overheating when I lost the harmonic balancer and water pump pulleys. I think the rings either got weakened, or maybe coked up from getting too hot, as I also seem to have more blow by. I don't know what a "solution that really works" is, but mine works for me.
This is just more personal evidence of that fact.
I know of several people who have done fully successful mTDI conversions
Well done, so do I - including the bloke down the pub I mentioned earlier, however -refering to my first post- I have quizzed all these people and those that have replied have all mentioned issues - all I was asking for was little bit of help........
You mention the 4TBA - the first I have heard of it's existance (I'll search more) which I'm guessing is a factory pump?
Think I'll give up on the mechanical pump and go for standalone management with VNT stepper control.
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I think it comes down to a compromise. Look at how long people ran carbs. Yes could be made to run nicely, and produce lots of power, but there is only so much you can do with bits of brass with holes in it lol. Same with a pump, only so much can be done with springs and plates :) Then along came the microchip and we no longer have to have linear advance or fuelling rates. We can give the engine what it needs! Now those previces devices are fossils, but at one time, we were amazed with their capabilities, and the knowledge of the person setting it up.
Just my thoughts on the subject, as I have no first hand experience on the subject in question.
-Gavin
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I believe the 4BTA was a cummins dodge engine. Same as the 6B but 4cylinder.
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The electronic VNT pumps are still 80% mechanically driven. The remaining 20% is purely for emissions, cold start, and fuel economy- but unfortunately, the pump won't run without it- along with the entire engine harness including cluster and immobilizer. If you are going to bother with standalone management which would be nearly worthless for the amount of effort it would take, you would be better off constructing a common-rail system to adapt to the TDI engine. Then we would be getting somewhere.
Brendan
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The electronic VNT pumps are still 80% mechanically driven.
You have overlooked the fact that an e-TDI is not simply an electrically controlled pump, it is a fully integrated system where the computer controls all aspects of engine management through feedback from many sensors, optimizing power, economy and emissions for any temperature, altitude, and throttle setting.
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The computer will also do a better job of adjusting for changing conditions, e.g. ambient temps, pump wear, etc. but a mechanical pump can be adjusted to be very close on the timing (imperceptibly close) and the air to fuel can be adjusted to be leaner (less emissions) in all operating conditions.
Leaner increases NOx emissions.
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And higher fuel to air increases particulate/smoke emissions, pick yer poison.
Andrew
Yea, but my point is that with an e-tdi I don't have to pick a poison, the ecu hits that perfect AF ratio, my e-tdi never smokes, and NOX is as minimized as possible. As I stated earlier E-TDIs have cleaner emissions than M-TDIs, for many people the worse emissions is a drawback of the M-TDIs.
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The ECU in an E-TDI does not just put a limit on boost as a wastegate does. When you request X amount of fuel the ECU adjusts the boost for that amount of fuel, the ECU is in control of AF ratios at all times. Also, a stock E-TDI system has an EGR system that reduces NOx by an additional %40. Yes, the EGR system certainly has its downfalls as well...
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The whole point of the mTDI conversion is that you have CONTROL. Unless you have the ability to program the ECU at your house, you don't have full user control of the eTDI system. You give up the sophistication for the durability and simplicity of the mTDI.
I don't think the OP really gets the point of the mTDI concept. Either that or they are trolling. :roll:
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I've searched and searched and read countless threads but am struggling to find a mTDI solution that REALLY works.
So when we shot this video of a 5 Cyl TDI from Europe is was just
our imagination? We built this M-TDI pump in the shop from scratch
combing his E-TDI pump and a 5 Cyl NA Eurovan pump.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6fYi13CBlU
When you dig you uncover little problems and issues with all of them, smoke, starting, lack of power etc
There was no smoke at start up and sounds great, my customer is
putting it into a T4 Van as we speek.
Anybody have a 100% solution yet, if so what is the recipe? or will the mTDI remain a flawed compromise?
Mythical Giles??????????? what do you mean??? i might take offence
to that comment.
Giles
:)
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I know that the 4bt pumps are & have always been m-tdi & have the correct cam plate & guts to work for us but don't they have a really low max rpm gov (like below 3500rpm?) I know the dodge 6bt's have a 3200rpm redline on the tach for what thats worth. They can be found pretty easily but it seems that they require lots of work & setup to be made drivable in vw. I suppose if found really cheap & shipped off to to a educated pump builder for a complete cal. I just wouldn't expect to drop one in & have it drive well without some of the black pump arts that guys like Tintin, Karl & obviously Giles have found through testing & a true inderstanding of their operation. Perhaps the original post speakes to too people being told any DI pump (like a unmodified 4bt VE pump) will run their m-tdi in a way you would hope for after doing the swap.
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well, I am buying one of the pumps Libbybapa is selling, and they seem to be for the 4BTA, so we will see what a uneducated guy like me can do to get it to work on a VW(admittedly an IDI but similar in application anyway)
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For any amount of air, you can set the amount of fuel.
My understanding of the LDA is that it just puts a limit on the max amount of fuel that can be injected per amount of air, so you could have 10 PSI at half throttle, but you might only need 5 psi to completely burn the fuel that is being injected.
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correct me if I am wrong, but that's the way a diesel works, without a throttle plate the diesel is throttled by how lean or rich it runs, and by doing so reduces parasitic drag of intake vacuum.
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correct me if I am wrong, but that's the way a diesel works, without a throttle plate the diesel is throttled by how lean or rich it runs, and by doing so reduces parasitic drag of intake vacuum.
That is generally true, but on a computer controlled diesel the fuel and air are both controlled by the computer (no throttle plate like a gasser though) to maximize economy and minimize emissions while older diesel will always be making as much boost as possible based on the fuel burned.
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I would imagine that to accomplish that, the computer controls the wastegate in order to open the wastegate when less air/fuel is needed for a given power requirement.
Yes, that is correct, but for newer TDIs the ECU controls the vane actuator.
If that's the case, then it would detrimentally affect efficiency by reducing the heat recovered by the turbine.
If the wastegate didn't open partially at low throttle settings additional air would be compressed for no reason. Opening the wastegate partially at low throttle settings reduces exhaust manifold pressure increasing engine efficiency.
I don't see how packing more air than necessary to burn the injected fuel will make an engine more efficient.
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my Mtdi runs A1 its running std turbo gt15 std injectors 90hp , but has twice the pulling power of my mk3 golf tdi , it has taking a bit to get the pump right , soon i will upgrade to a gt20 and .240 nozzles
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my Mtdi runs A1 its running std turbo gt15 std injectors 90hp , but has twice the pulling power of my mk3 golf tdi
Isn't the A1 about around 400Kg lighter than the A3 though?
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I don't think the OP really gets the point of the mTDI concept. Either that or they are trolling. :roll:
No mate, I'm begining to wish I never asked....no I'm no troll - if you want to check my FAQ, you'll see I've spent many hours producing original useful material for this forum :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Maybe, I should explain the rationale of the original question...
I'm a mk1 (A1) fan and advocate of diesels, I love my clacky AAZ/RA/SBs but they are begining to get rare. Where as the TDI lumps are two a penny.
I would like to use the later TDI but stick with old skool technology if possible. i.e. mTDI
More and more people over here are interested in mTDIs and a few have built them - mostly with AAZ pumps and say they run fine :roll:
What I was really looking for was no hypothesis or pie in the sky theorys, just someone to say........
I use x pump with y head and z camplate and the results are................. is that too much to ask?
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The 2.8 LT TDI pump is a direct bolt-on high performance mTDI pump
Hi Andrew, is there a source for these pumps that will ship to us in the US ?
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my Mtdi runs A1 its running std turbo gt15 std injectors 90hp , but has twice the pulling power of my mk3 golf tdi
Isn't the A1 about around 400Kg lighter than the A3 though?
sorry pal when i said A1 i should of said my Mtdi runs very well , the car is the one to the left a mk2 golf
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when i said A1 i should of said my Mtdi runs very well , the car is the one to the left a mk2 golf
The Mtdi is just injecting more fuel than the E-tdi, the E-tdi can easily be "chipped" and pick up an extra 30 HP using the same nozzles and turbo, it not like M-tdis inherently make more power, actually to the contrary, all the most powerful VW TDIs in north america are E-TDIs.
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As I said before, the mechanical pump can be tuned so that for any given amount of air, the amount of fuel injected can be controlled.
I don't see how the IP/LDA can do that, heres my understanding of how it works. Your foot requests X amount of fuel, which produces Y PSI of boost, that boost pushes the pin in the LDA down allowing more max fueling for Y PSI of boost, but the LDA will never restrict fueling for any consistent pedal position.
Doesn't the LDA only restrict fueling briefly when you "floor it" quickly as boost has not yet risen?
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If the OP wants real world example of an M-TDI setup working he can drive my van with one of Karls pumps. It's a 1Z with 11mm plunger, cummins 4BT based mechanical IP. That's all I know about it, ask Karl for more details.
http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/more_power/Power_ve.htm
Jack you are quite passionate about the e-TDI which is fine but I won't believe anything about emissions till I see some reality backing that claim up. I was at a dyno shootout this summer and all the e-TDIs on the dyno were smoking a heckuvalot more than mine. I went with mechanical because I follow the TDI-vanagon conversion yahoo group that should really be renamed "I'm having electrical problems with my e-TDI" group.
I would not ever convert an eTDI to a mTDI in a passat or other original vehicle but if I do another conversion there is no doubt that it would be mechanical.
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I don't think the OP really gets the point of the mTDI concept. Either that or they are trolling. :roll:
No mate, I'm begining to wish I never asked....no I'm no troll - if you want to check my FAQ, you'll see I've spent many hours producing original useful material for this forum :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Maybe, I should explain the rationale of the original question...
I'm a mk1 (A1) fan and advocate of diesels, I love my clacky AAZ/RA/SBs but they are begining to get rare. Where as the TDI lumps are two a penny.
I would like to use the later TDI but stick with old skool technology if possible. i.e. mTDI
More and more people over here are interested in mTDIs and a few have built them - mostly with AAZ pumps and say they run fine :roll:
What I was really looking for was no hypothesis or pie in the sky theorys, just someone to say........
I use x pump with y head and z camplate and the results are................. is that too much to ask?
What you're asking the people who've spent the time to research
and develope theire own M-TDI pumps is give away there hard
earned tricks and methods.
I have built about 6 M-TDI pumps so far and all who have them
are very happy and run great.
any of you who are reading this pls pipe and tell this guy that
they do exist.
you didn't comment on the youtube video i pointed you to look at.
Jason Williams Van is in my shop right now for final tuning and it
runs great.
we'll be updating our website with pic's and full story.
www.performancediesel.ca
Giles
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I was at a dyno shootout this summer and all the e-TDIs on the dyno were smoking a heckuvalot more than mine.
Just wondering, how much power did those e-tdis make and how much power did your m-tdi make?
Also, this discussion is based on stock engines, I think, yet you're using the emissions of cars that have been altered as your baseline for how much an e-tdi pollutes?
If m-tdis have cleaner emissions than e-tdis, what was the incentive for VW to make tdis computer controlled? FYI a stock e-tdi emits at least %40 less NOx than an M-tdi.
Jack you are quite passionate about the e-TDI....
Yea, and I'm actually one of the few here that has a through understanding of how they function. I'm finding that discussions can be frustrating when the other parties don't know the basic operating principles of half the discussion.
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The LDA feeler pin lever is the pivot point for the control collar lever assembly. It always impacts the amount of fuel injected according to manifold pressure. As boost pressure rises, fueling is increased proportionally or another way of saying it in this relative universe is that whenever boost pressure is less than maximum, fueling is reduced proportionally. The start and end point of the fueling change ramp are both adjustable as is the steepness of the ramp.
Thanks for the rundown on LDA function 8)
And despite how it may come across I do think that mechanically injected diesels are quite the cool contraptions, any car that could still drive around after the aliens come and render everything electrical inoperable can't be half bad. And don't try to tell me that all of you have never dreamed of driving your mechanically injected diesel around in a mad max type world where nothing else operates with a giant grin on your face :lol:
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What you're asking the people who've spent the time to research and develope theire own M-TDI pumps is give away there hard earned tricks and methods.
Giles,
The irony to your post is that the GTD forum was built as an open-source community. And Regcheeseman is one of the more significant contributors to that community. The backbone of this forum ALREADY does research, sometimes expensive and destructive research, and "gives away their hard-earned tricks". That's what it's all about.
Commercial vendors were originally not welcome at GTD, and their eventual entry to the forum caused some of the key original open-souce participants to quit & stop posting. You remember this well, I'm sure. It's a fact, all that history is still here to be read.
Regcheeseman has every right to ask his question here. There's no other place where he is likely to get as good an answer to it, as from the community at the GTD forum.
If you don't want to participate in the conversation, then nobody is forcing you to.
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I don't think the OP really gets the point of the mTDI concept. Either that or they are trolling. :roll:
No mate, I'm begining to wish I never asked....no I'm no troll - if you want to check my FAQ, you'll see I've spent many hours producing original useful material for this forum :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Maybe, I should explain the rationale of the original question...
I'm a mk1 (A1) fan and advocate of diesels, I love my clacky AAZ/RA/SBs but they are begining to get rare. Where as the TDI lumps are two a penny.
I would like to use the later TDI but stick with old skool technology if possible. i.e. mTDI
More and more people over here are interested in mTDIs and a few have built them - mostly with AAZ pumps and say they run fine :roll:
What I was really looking for was no hypothesis or pie in the sky theorys, just someone to say........
I use x pump with y head and z camplate and the results are................. is that too much to ask?
What you're asking the people who've spent the time to research
and develope theire own M-TDI pumps is give away there hard
earned tricks and methods.
I have built about 6 M-TDI pumps so far and all who have them
are very happy and run great.
any of you who are reading this pls pipe and tell this guy that
they do exist.
you didn't comment on the youtube video i pointed you to look at.
Jason Williams Van is in my shop right now for final tuning and it
runs great.
we'll be updating our website with pic's and full story.
www.performancediesel.ca
Giles
i can't wait to see his van!!! next up will be getting my TDI engine running and try to jam it into my jetta :lol:
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The LDA feeler pin lever is the pivot point for the control collar lever assembly. It always impacts the amount of fuel injected according to manifold pressure. As boost pressure rises, fueling is increased proportionally or another way of saying it in this relative universe is that whenever boost pressure is less than maximum, fueling is reduced proportionally. The start and end point of the fueling change ramp are both adjustable as is the steepness of the ramp.
Thanks for the rundown on LDA function 8)
And despite how it may come across I do think that mechanically injected diesels are quite the cool contraptions, any car that could still drive around after the aliens come and render everything electrical inoperable can't be half bad. And don't try to tell me that all of you have never dreamed of driving your mechanically injected diesel around in a mad max type world where nothing else operates with a giant grin on your face :lol:
rip the fuel stop solenoid out, and hook up a pull cord to the crank, use the popey arms... and when you need to shut it off just stick your hand over the intake :twisted: wickeddd!!!! 8) of course my diesel would run on alien body's (after i kill them with my NOx pollution)... just process them into biodiesel :lol:
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What you're asking the people who've spent the time to research and develope theire own M-TDI pumps is give away there hard earned tricks and methods.
Giles,
The irony to your post is that the GTD forum was built as an open-source community. And Regcheeseman is one of the more significant contributors to that community. The backbone of this forum ALREADY does research, sometimes expensive and destructive research, and "gives away their hard-earned tricks". That's what it's all about.
Commercial vendors were originally not welcome at GTD, and their eventual entry to the forum caused some of the key original open-souce participants to quit & stop posting. You remember this well, I'm sure. It's a fact, all that history is still here to be read.
Regcheeseman has every right to ask his question here. There's no other place where he is likely to get as good an answer to it, as from the community at the GTD forum.
If you don't want to participate in the conversation, then nobody is forcing you to.
Ok here goes
Machine the AAZ housing to accept the 20mm shaft and seal
Use the AAZ main body and most internals and swap in the TDI
Head, camplate and misc related parts. then modify the LDA to
give more fuel at the top end and not the bottom end.
this might be a bit vague but i can't go into specific details of what
i do in the shop.
.
Regcheeseman asked what parts we use and that's it.
Giles
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>>>cue Jaws theme<<< :shock:
Andrew
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Thanks Otis! My reply would have been brief and possibly less eloquent.
Giles and anyone else who is prepared to share.....
I have a 10mm TDI pump, would this be a suitable donor or does it have to be the 11?
why the need for greater top end fuel delivery? It was my basic understanding that the TDI engine was merely at a higher pressure than a IDI.
Or is the extra fuel just there to retain the tdi power output level?
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What you're asking the people who've spent the time to research and develope theire own M-TDI pumps is give away there hard earned tricks and methods.
Giles,
The irony to your post is that the GTD forum was built as an open-source community. And Regcheeseman is one of the more significant contributors to that community. The backbone of this forum ALREADY does research, sometimes expensive and destructive research, and "gives away their hard-earned tricks". That's what it's all about.
Commercial vendors were originally not welcome at GTD, and their eventual entry to the forum caused some of the key original open-souce participants to quit & stop posting. You remember this well, I'm sure. It's a fact, all that history is still here to be read.
Regcheeseman has every right to ask his question here. There's no other place where he is likely to get as good an answer to it, as from the community at the GTD forum.
If you don't want to participate in the conversation, then nobody is forcing you to.
Ok here goes
Machine the AAZ housing to accept the 20mm shaft and seal
Use the AAZ main body and most internals and swap in the TDI
Head, camplate and misc related parts. then modify the LDA to
give more fuel at the top end and not the bottom end.
this might be a bit vague but i can't go into specific details of what
i do in the shop.
.
Regcheeseman asked what parts we use and that's it.
Giles
without spilling the beans, well done, Giles.
even if you did explain the whole process though, not just anyone could reproduce what you do. its mostly the calibration, and that in itself is worth it IMO.
but for those wishing to build themselves an mTDI pump a la homebrew, there is TONS of information all over this forum!!! Tintin has explained how to get an mTDI pump to run half decent with a 1.9 AAZ pump and some other parts.
so don't pounce on Giles for not giving away his trade secrets (mostly in the calibration/tuning - do you see alligator tuning giving away their secrets or any other tuning company???). it's his bread and butter here guys... just pay him the money to get it done right (just like his performance rebuilds...) or talk to Tintin or some other users on this forum for advice.
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I think it's great to give away secrets and share with others what you have learned. Being selfish will get us no where fast and I am tired about money keeping people from helping one another. Giles does great work I am sure, but to say just give him money and let him do everything right is just F*&^ing stupid. Just my two cents. If I had secrets that Giles needed to save him a bunch of money then I wouldn't hesitate to give them to him, it's the right thing to do. Too bad the world revolves around money. All you haters that don't help others will get what is coming to you... :wink:
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but to say just give him money and let him do everything right
Some folks call that making a wise decision. Know your limits and abilities otherwise you'll spend twice as much for half as good.
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Diesology 101:
In the end no matter how you put it - or do it - getting the kind of education that matters the most is not cheep! I respect those who want to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps - and yet I also respect those who have paid their dues - Yes I pick people brains all the time but find out that one man's hull is another man's bird feed - There are knowledge predators and then there are knowledge scavengers but the survivalist at one point or another will have to resort to a bit of both.
Even though we don't mind helping others out we are ultimately out to help ourselves because without one's being helped or educated there is less and less chance for any technological advance, shared or unshared. Belittling others usually never helps educate - while when incorrect and making that acknowledgment does. However communication is vital - and it is a good thing that there are enough diesel users to go around which sort of tames the dog eat dog world that we live in.
It is just like with anything situation in life when one understands it more they can better trouble shoot and then fixing becomes a matter of time!
When it comes to diesels many times we are used to thinking in terms of nuts and bolts but as always there is the human factor. The whole purpose of this forum as I see it is educational which in fact has been the best tool for my sharing in learning so far - thanks to all those who contribute - our goal can be to just get along because it take all of us to make this diesel world go around!
Thanks
Stephen
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I think it's great to give away secrets and share with others what you have learned. Being selfish will get us no where fast and I am tired about money keeping people from helping one another. Giles does great work I am sure, but to say just give him money and let him do everything right is just F*&^ing stupid. Just my two cents. If I had secrets that Giles needed to save him a bunch of money then I wouldn't hesitate to give them to him, it's the right thing to do. Too bad the world revolves around money. All you haters that don't help others will get what is coming to you... :wink:
Giles has the proper equipment to get the pump fine tuned so that it will run the way it was intended the first time you put it on, and i'm sure that it was not cheap!!! he pretty much said how to make (or how he makes) an mTDI pump up top, without going into great detail. despite what you might think, i don't think that he's profiting greatly from his pumps. if you compare what other shops charge vs what you get, he should charge more... think of it like Capitalism. sharing his tricks would be more like Communism... :lol: then everyone could potentially do it themselves.
if you piece together the information on this thread, you will find exactly what is needed to create your mTDI pump (no spoon feeding here). but just don't cry if it doesn't work right... and when you price an AAZ pump with a TDI pump, you're pretty much at a grand, unless you get a shot AAZ pump + TDI pump, which need to be rebuilt anyway (which Giles does...) and if you're wondering what your pump might run like, save yourself the work and go buy prothe's mTDI pump off his site.
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Well at least no one is up Giles' butt!! :wink:
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if you piece together the information on this thread, you will find exactly what is needed to create your mTDI pump (no spoon feeding here). but just don't cry if it doesn't work right... and when you price an AAZ pump with a TDI pump, you're pretty much at a grand, unless you get a shot AAZ pump + TDI pump, which need to be rebuilt anyway (which Giles does...) and if you're wondering what your pump might run like, save yourself the work and go buy prothe's mTDI pump off his site.
Don't forget the westyventures option. $1200 for a brand new pump tuned to run properly right out of the wrapper.
Its too bad Karl doesn't post over here any more, he knows his stuff.
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Experts (Tintin, Giles, etc.) have already described in as great detail as possible how to make a mTDI pump. The key is the "tuning"!!!! Anyone can slap eTDI parts into an AAZ pump. It's not that hard. The money you spend for a mTDI pump is the hours of tuning that goes into it.
Giles just said he has made 6 mTDI pumps, so he obviously isn't making his living off these special purpose custom builds. He's not hiding info, you just can't tell someone how to tune a pump with one-size-fits-all instructions.
:x
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I was at a dyno shootout this summer and all the e-TDIs on the dyno were smoking a heckuvalot more than mine.
Just wondering, how much power did those e-tdis make and how much power did your m-tdi make?
Also, this discussion is based on stock engines, I think, yet you're using the emissions of cars that have been altered as your baseline for how much an e-tdi pollutes?
If m-tdis have cleaner emissions than e-tdis, what was the incentive for VW to make tdis computer controlled? FYI a stock e-tdi emits at least %40 less NOx than an M-tdi.
You seem to have shown up to throw down "part of a story" and now won't take the time to respond to a few questions?
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I won't believe anything about emissions till I see some reality backing that claim up
Still waiting for an answer to this one before we can move on....
Dogma doesn't count. :shock:
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My 1Z eTDI blows 30% opacity on emissions testing. LOL.
But before the performance mods, it threw out maybe 5%. It also had a lot less power. lol. Give and take. Then again, we do have a stock downpipe and exhaust at the moment...... More resistance, higher EGT's, more NOx. But thats not the point being discussed, so I'll hush now.
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I won't believe anything about emissions till I see some reality backing that claim up
Still waiting for an answer to this one before we can move on....
Claim? So I'm dishonest and making up BS now?
If I post something that sounds like a fact it is because I read it from a highly credible source, or have had enough experience with it firsthand that I have no problem reporting "it" as a fact.
Moving on...
The quote below is from the EGR reduction procedure from TDIclub, I have snipped out bits of the EGR reduction procedure that are unimportant to this discussion and bolded the important bit. With this EGR adaptation done there is still EGR flow, just not as much as stock so the NOx emissions will be even worse with the EGR system completely removed which must be done for all M-TDIs and for any TDI--->Vanagon swap, at least I have never seen a Vanagon with a TDI complete with functioning EGR, BUT this thread is not about swapping TDIs into vanagons, there are many other cars that TDI go into on a regular basis, and we are comparing E-tdis to M-tdis, a stock e-tdi which has an EGR system.
Recalibrating the EGR System of a VW TDI
A VW specific scan tool such as VAG-COM is required for this procedure..... <snip> ......Note that the display shows a default adaptation value of 32768 and shows approximately 250 +/- 20 mg/stroke of air intake volume... <snip> ...enter 33768 as the new adaptation value, and select "test". Note that the displayed air intake volume changes, usually to about 370 mg/stroke. (If you don't care about road-legal NOx emission limits then leave it at 33768. [Depending on the usage cycle, NOx at this setting can be increased by as much as 40%]) If all is well and you have a seting that you are happy with which results in an intake air volume of 370 mg/stroke or just a hair less, enter "save".
Above quote from TDIclub FAQ (http://tdiclub.com/TDIFAQ/TDiFAQ-7.html#g)
And here is what I had posted earlier,
FYI a stock e-tdi emits at least %40 less NOx than an M-tdi.
Which is pretty damn accurate, with the Vag-com EGR adaptation NOX can increase up to %40, but eliminating the EGR all together makes the NOx output even greater, how much? Hard to say, depends on several factors, but I was certainly pretty close with my original statement.
Your turn :)
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There were EGR systems fitted to VW diesels as early as the '84 quantum...
Maybe 85? The 84 TD quantum in my driveway has no EGR, and is all original, or maybe California cars got the EGR?
On those older set-ups is the percent of EGR controlled by the go pedal? Ideally for NOx control you want a lot of EGR at lower throttle settings, less at high throttle setting, and none at WOT.
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I was at a dyno shootout this summer and all the e-TDIs on the dyno were smoking a heckuvalot more than mine.
Can you post the dyno HP and torque graphs for all these vehicles? Or at least for your van?
We all love a good dyno graph.
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There were EGR systems fitted to VW diesels as early as the '84 quantum...
Maybe 85? The 84 TD quantum in my driveway has no EGR, and is all original, or maybe California cars got the EGR?
On those older set-ups is the percent of EGR controlled by the go pedal? Ideally for NOx control you want a lot of EGR at lower throttle settings, less at high throttle setting, and none at WOT.
you will also have some nice deposits in the intake from the EGR, unless you completely polish it, as well as the head... EGR is good in theory but can be quite destructive to an engine. more soot is deposited in the oil, which means more frequent oil changes (unless you use a nice bypass oil filter)
does EGR really help??? by forcing people to buy new motors, or have theirs repaired due to a clogged system? i think in the long run that many engines will be scrapped due to EGR related issues, negating its benefit. if the valve of the EGR stays open, your car will run like a heap of crap and someone who doesn't know any better, will probably scrap it and buy a new one, or possibly take it in for an outrageous bill (unless they are handy)
but thats my 2 cents on EGR. good in theory :wink: one promising piece of technology is the particulate filter. that thing is pretty neat!!!
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Jack,
Show me some data about the differences in emissions between the two everything else being equal.
You seem to itching for some kind of confrontation here. I am not making any claims but you on the other hand make them all the time.
You are coming up with some very specific numbers and since you are "one of the few that have a thorough understanding" of how e and m-TDIs function I could only assume that you have some documented resources backing up your claims.
Is revealing your source really that big of a deal? Based on your statements you must have a study that has compared a mechanically controlled TDI vs an e-TDI in the same vehicle, same engine. Seems reasonable doesn't it. I'm guessing it would have to come from Europe though since as far as I know there aren't any production m-TDI vehicles in the US. You say you are looking for a baseline which I agree is important. I am certainly not qualified to say what that should be, that's why I'm asking you. You seem to be suggesting that it should be a vanagon not sure why that appeared? The EGR delete can be done to either e or m so not sure where you are going with that. The EGR in a vanagon is a choice,mine came with it but has since been eliminated. The link to the TDI page doesn't say anything about emission comparisons between the two everything else being equal.
Since VW has spent money and time on R&D for the electronics I'd assume that they have done some studies showing the improvements over an identical system only with mechanical control. You'd think the electronics would give us an improvement in mileage as well as emissions. Did VW just keep their fingers crossed?
Maybe if you revealed your source instead of getting defensive you would have some converts. I am only looking for some real info in a world of lofty claims. I think alot of people are concerned about emissions, please educate us. I went with mechanical to avoid the electrical pitfalls involved in a conversion and to not have to replace MAFs, MAPs, ECMs etc..., there is no hard data on emissions so it wasn't a factor.
Not trying to get into a competition with you over who knows what, you can win that one but when you quote specific stats they don't really mean much to me without a little back up. I don't think that is a difficult request and no I don't think you're "dishonest and making up BS". Why so defensive? What I'm asking for is pretty basic stuff. If you don't have it just say so.
I do not have any data sheets, didn't have the time or inclination to interview everyone at the GTG. The dyno was having issues, throwing some very strange numbers for everyone so in light of what I just wrote I won't propagate misinformation.
Not trying to argue with you just asking for information. The only thing I know about emissions is what I see so come on Jack reveal your source.
Show me some data about the differences in emissions between the two everything else being equal. :?
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I'm not even sure why emissions are being discussed in the first place. Run biodiesel, problem solved. :P
Brendan
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I do not have any data sheets, didn't have the time or inclination to interview everyone at the GTG. The dyno was having issues, throwing some very strange numbers for everyone so in light of what I just wrote I won't propagate misinformation.
So why did you make the initial post only to admit now that it was misinformation?
Show me some data about the differences in emissions between the two everything else being equal. :?
Wash my car :roll:
So now all the TDIs sold from 1996 to 2003 can't be considered e-TDIs?
Besides, you're not asking for specific data, if I posted info about what you are asking for you just respond with "Thats not how my M-TDI is set up."
Its pretty far fetched that an assortment of parts and pieces that runs decently just so happens to have the same or less emissions than something built by professional engineers who absolutely must meet emissions standards or their cars can't be sold, don't you think?
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Run biodiesel
That does increase the NOx emissions compared to running petro diesel, fwiw.
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but thats my 2 cents on EGR. good in theory :wink: one promising piece of technology is the particulate filter. that thing is pretty neat!!!
Talked to a bud up in Fort Mac last night, all ford diesels with a particulate filter have been banned from most oil companies work sites. I had heard they had problems with the burn cycle to clean the filter but...
FYI its supposed to do this but at highway speeds only.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v36MCcRPRTc
Is there a exhaust filter with the bluetech pee-pee injection system vw licenced from mercedes?
Now lets all be gentlemen, this is a interesting thread & I'd hate to see it get locked!
I would imagine someone would be able to find performance data from a m-tdi vs e-tdi LT 2.8 van. I would love to see some dyno data & background tuning history for a 1.9 m-tdi.
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Jack this is easy.
Show me some data about the differences in emissions between the two everything else being equal.
A simple reference to a substantiated study would do it and we'd be done.
Obviously you don't have anything, enough said.
Thanks for your time.
PS. I love my pop-top shocks. :D
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A simple reference to a substantiated study would do it and we'd be done.
I don't think you believe there exists a study comparing a VW TDI missing a various assortment of parts to another TDI that is missing even more parts with a random assortment of parts thrown back on to make it run, do you?
On the red herring scale I'll give that a 9.8
The thing is, every new generation of TDIs is cleaner than the generation before it, and not just a little bit cleaner, way cleaner. But of course in your comparison the engines have to be exactly the same... huh? They aren't the same, thats the point, it is not "detrimentally modify the better one to minimize its chances of "winning" and then test them."
What can we do? We can apply theory to the situation and come to a pretty reasonable conclusion about the topic at hand, there is actually just about all the info you need in this thread to figure how the emissions from a "how you think an e-tdi should be set-up" compared to the emissions of "how you think an M-tdi should be set-up." will vary.
PS. I love my pop-top shocks. :D
Thanks! I popped my roof today with 4" of snow on it without much hassle, so nice having them.
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regcheese, did you get this sorted? I want to put a di head on an idi isuzu engine so i could benefit form learning how to do this.
I understand that Giles does this for a living but i can't afford to post my pump to the US and back, as well as the work!
Snakemaster, your mdi pump, where did that come from?
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Fairweather, I'm wondering if you could comment on what you believe is(are) the reason(s) that VW installed a complete computer controlled engine management system on their TDI engines?
I can certainly comment on it. You would think that all the R&D and production involved with the TDI would get us better emissions, better mileage , and greater reliability but that isn't necessarily the case from what I can decipher from posts on mileage of the 09s vs older models.
To use an example that I read about today, the model T got 25mpg and Ford's average mpg is currently less than that. Yes more power is available but is that all you get for millions of R&D dollars and 100 years? Seems quite pathetic to me.
Another personal example is that my 1984 Toyota 22R that was essentially a mechanically controlled engine got 28-30 mpg and my 04 V40 gets the same mileage with several hundred pounds of electronics. (Both 4cyl)
I don't live in an area where we need to get emissions tested so I can't compare those numbers but given the time involved and the money that auto companies have (or had) you'd think they'd come up with something better than that. Independent developers have proven time and again that it is possible o build a production car with better economy than is generally available now (go to Europe if you don't believe me)
My inlaws used to own a car dealership and so have some insider info and that is "We don't make money on selling new cars, we make money on service and parts" So my theory is that a large part of the electronic movement is to keep the dealerships in the money because they make more parts that have planned obsolescence and are more difficult or impossible for the home mechanic to maintain/replace or even diagnose. (Most of the TDI owners aren't on here studying)
That is the reason why I would like to see a study that compared a 2009 m-TDI with a 2009 e-TDI (substitute any year you want just as long as they are the same). I really don't think a study like that would be unreasonable. Then do a study of the maintenance costs over the life of the vehicle and i think we could see some interesting economics.
So to sum it up, I think a very large part of why electronics were developed is to keep the service centers in the money. Not saying economy plays a part but I don't think it is the driving force.
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Fairweather, I'm wondering if you could comment on what you believe is(are) the reason(s) that VW installed a complete computer controlled engine management system on their TDI engines?
I can certainly comment on it. You would think that all the R&D and production involved with the TDI would get us better emissions, better mileage , and greater reliability but that isn't necessarily the case from what I can decipher from posts on mileage of the 09s vs older models.
Have you seen a 09 in real life? Have you smelled the exhaust? Even when cold started at 30* F the exhaust is odorless, its just warm air coming out of the tailpipe, amazing really.
We are comparing a ve pumped M-tdi to a ve pumped E-tdi, I think Andrew wants to know why specifically VW decided to make the rotary pumped TDI electronic.
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To use an example that I read about today, the model T got 25mpg and Ford's average mpg is currently less than that. Yes more power is available but is that all you get for millions of R&D dollars and 100 years? Seems quite pathetic to me.
I don't agree. R&D for all the car makers combined over 100 years is probably in the bazillions. It is still a small price to pay for not having to crank the engine by hand.
I have no facts to back up my opinions but I doubt all electronics were developed to keep you from fixing your car.
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I have been restraining myself...as I don't think this pertains to the OP
I am an evil conservative. I don't believe that humans are the cause of global warming...or cooling...or global climate change or if we are we are a very small percentage. To a point I could care less about emissions now. Back when diesel was 5,000 ppm of sulfur, maybe, but not now. My mom has an 06TDI and I think it is just fine, but so are my old cars. Hers smokes less than my MK1 and MK2 most times, but once again I don't care. With a car that is getting 40 some MPG to go that 40 miles you are only using 1 gallon. Matter not being created or destroyed there is only so much possible emissions that "could" be created by that gallon no matter how it is burnt. Pour it on a fire and still it can only have so much bad to it. Now in the same gallon there could be differences in how it burns different levels of NOx etc, but gallon is a gallon. If you were really thinking then my brother in laws 18 wheeler that gets at best 6 MPG no matter how much pollution equipment is going to emit more than our 4 cylinder 1.6-2.0s.
The difference between Mtdi Etdi in VW 4 cylinders to me is like trying to separate fly sh1t from pepper, yes it could be done,yes there are probably some noticable differences, but in the end all the time wasted just isn't worth it. In a years time or the life of the car what does it add up to? We have all probably used enough electricity by using this forum to off set that difference anyway. It is almost like saying "my male organ is 1.9mm long...oh yeah mine is 2.0mm long and cleaner." Either way me or your wife won't notice or care. I would love to see a comparison through all the years of vw diesel emissions, stock setups and new engines of course just to see how much cleaner it is.
I don't mean to offend anyone just a rant letting you all know I don't care about emissions levels from our little engines, back to topic.
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Have you seen a 09 in real life?
No, that's why I said "decipher". I have considered the 09 TDI but the mpg numbers aren't what I expected and I am not impressed. I would rather have the 3 cylinder Polo numbers.
:arrow:
I think Andrew wants to know why specifically VW decided to make the rotary pumped TDI electronic.
I thought he said this:
a complete computer controlled engine management system
I answered to the best of my ability, observations and experience.
:arrow:
but I doubt all electronics
This is what I said:
So my theory is that a large part of the electronic movement
These are two different things, I don't really put much weight on absolutes, they are rarely applicable.
:arrow:
This is the problem with posts like these that seem to go super nova, I asked what I thought was a simple question and we go from a to b by starting with z.
:arrow:
This guy seems to understand what I am talking about:
I would imagine someone would be able to find performance data from a m-tdi vs e-tdi LT 2.8 van.
I've been doing alot of research online in the last couple days, lots of interesting stuff but no definitive answer. Yes I do believe that over the years some emissions reduction has occurred, I never denied that nor was that ever my question.
:arrow:
My question is and always has been:
Show me some data about the differences in emissions between the two everything else being equal.
:arrow:
Anybody have that little animation that has something to do with beating a dead horse? I think I'm going to need it.
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Well, thanks to CA's new HD diesel emissions standards I can safely say that diesels these days have to conform to the same emissions standards in terms of g/hphr that diesel passenger vehicles had to around 1980. And the trucking industry ***ed and whined every step of the way. :lol:
Anyway, when looking at emissions mileage isn't a big concern since emissions already take this into account due to measuring 'em in g/mile or g/km. For instance according to federal standards I could have a CB125 motorcycle that pulled 100mpg, three or four times what my gasoline car pulls, but at the same time emits five times more pollution per mile.
In terms of why VW made the TDIs electronic, my best guess is regulating NOx emissions since they would need active management given several inputs to do it effectively. From the POV of emissions, outside of those running rich, NOx emissions are where diesels pollute more than SI vehicles, so a catalyst (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/04/argonne_develop.html) is needed to clean up emissions in the usual sense. I think CA's pressure on the HD diesel industry actually helped push a lot of the research we're seeing today. When gasser emissions started ratcheting up the first systems were god awful. Who in their right mind thought a separate pump dumping air into the exhaust stream so the cat would work was a good idea? But these days we have all sorts of fancy and really basic/clean ways that result in clean emissions. My truck's engine bay is a maze of vacuum tubing and valves, but my grandfather's newer car is nice and sparse w/ far fewer emissions to boot.
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The emission control with E-tdi vs M-tdi has very little to do with the amount of fuel injected, it is relatively easy to adjust an M-pump at this level, like libby said.
The major problem with the DI engine, especially with high RPM range engine, is to adjust the timing properly, and yet, one must know the E-tdi timing maps, otherwise you can only adjusted it roughly, there is no bench test value for DI VW engine.
If you install a new timing belt on a E-tdi, you will find 15000km later that the timing has moved from 1.00mm to 0.70mm (timing belt stretch) but the ECU compensate for the wear and always keep correct the timing curve, since DI engine are very very sensitive for the timing, with M-tdi pump you have to re-adjust the timing often.
How about the timing belt strech during running, the pump is harder to rotate with cold fuel compared to hot fuel, E-tdi can compensate to keep the timing, but not M-tdi.
More and more example.............
M-pump (although it is stuck adjustment) is a very good compromise to get running a TDI if there is no possibility of installing the ECU, the power output and emission can be the same as ECU controled, but not constant without maintenance, you can dynoed 180hp with M-pump without smoke, and two mont later you make only 140hp with smoke........
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Fairweather, I'm wondering if you could comment on what you believe is(are) the reason(s) that VW installed a complete computer controlled engine management system on their TDI engines?
I can certainly comment on it. You would think that all the R&D and production involved with the TDI would get us better emissions, better mileage , and greater reliability but that isn't necessarily the case from what I can decipher from posts on mileage of the 09s vs. older models.
That's easy, our EPA is against small diesel's here (from the horse's mouth) so they have deemed the carbon particles (soot) to be very bad if its from a small diesel (car) - Hence the DPF captures this until burn-off where its converted at the expense of many litters of fuel into CO2 & water (from the fuel)
To use an example that I read about today, the model T got 25 mpg and Ford's average mpg is currently less than that. Yes more power is available but is that all you get for millions of R&D dollars and 100 years? Seems quite pathetic to me.
Well, this is a very bad mis-quote. The Model T had a 20 hp engine, a top speed of 40 mph, was 1200 pounds, and had NO side windows !! If you scaled down our IDI to 20 hp ( 1 cylinder ?) and put it into a 1200 pound car that could only go 40 mph, I am certain the mpg would be phenomenal. Also, Ford sells the new Fiesta diesel that gets 76 mpg on the free way !!
Also, in the US, the new Ford hybrids next year will beat the Toyota and Honda hybrids in mpg and equal the Toyota in JD Powers quality. Sorry Honda, they beat you now.
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That's easy, our EPA is against small diesel's here (from the horse's mouth) so they have deemed the carbon particles (soot) to be very bad if its from a small diesel (car) - Hence the DPF captures this until burn-off where its converted at the expense of many litters of fuel into CO2 & water (from the fuel)
What? Where does the EPA say they're against small diesels?
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That's easy, our EPA is against small diesel's here (from the horse's mouth) so they have deemed the carbon particles (soot) to be very bad if its from a small diesel (car) - Hence the DPF captures this until burn-off where its converted at the expense of many litters of fuel into CO2 & water (from the fuel)
What? Where does the EPA say they're against small diesels?
They say it with regulations that are not approved by law makers, but some un-named bureaucrat who posts the ever increasing rules for small diesels - Currently the air exiting the TIER2-BIN5 cars in America must be cleaner than the air entering the air cleaner.
Yet, EPA allows LARGE diesels to pump to pump out tons of NOx and soot. That's why your 18 wheelers and dump trucks are still bellowing black smoke at the stop light.
In these hard times, don't you think the Big 3 would sell in the US their small VERY high mpg diesel cars here they already sell to the rest of the world ? EPA will not allow this.
I personally worked with a guy at Robert Bosch. He was doing a dog and phony show in Pontiac for auto insiders where we got to drive some of these diesel cars on a private lot (Former home of the Detroit Lions)... he had no problems getting these cars off ship with "M" plates, but the moment he tried to drive the diesel Smart car from Windsor into Detroit, the guys with guns were under strict orders from EPA to not allow such cars in unless there was permission and they were not going to stay in the US.
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Hence the DPF captures this until burn-off where its converted at the expense of many litters of fuel into CO2 & water (from the fuel)
Over how long of a period of time? Talk on TDI club is that regeneration doesn't use much fuel and happens pretty infrequently.
The low MPGs 09 owners are reporting are a bit baffling, according to VW,
Best-efficiency-point ALH rotary pump TDI = 197 g/kWh
Best-efficiency-point DPF-equipped common-rail TDI = 204 g/kWh and that's at a higher RPM and load setting.
That's what's in it. These numbers are from VW.
Although the 09's are huge compared to the MK4s and heavier, but the MPGs are still lower then one would expect.
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That's easy, our EPA is against small diesel's here (from the horse's mouth) so they have deemed the carbon particles (soot) to be very bad if its from a small diesel (car) - Hence the DPF captures this until burn-off where its converted at the expense of many litters of fuel into CO2 & water (from the fuel)
What? Where does the EPA say they're against small diesels?
They say it with regulations that are not approved by law makers, but some un-named bureaucrat who posts the ever increasing rules for small diesels - Currently the air exiting the TIER2-BIN5 cars in America must be cleaner than the air entering the air cleaner.
Yet, EPA allows LARGE diesels to pump to pump out tons of NOx and soot. That's why your 18 wheelers and dump trucks are still bellowing black smoke at the stop light.
In these hard times, don't you think the Big 3 would sell in the US their small VERY high mpg diesel cars here they already sell to the rest of the world ? EPA will not allow this.
I personally worked with a guy at Robert Bosch. He was doing a dog and phony show in Pontiac for auto insiders where we got to drive some of these diesel cars on a private lot (Former home of the Detroit Lions)... he had no problems getting these cars off ship with "M" plates, but the moment he tried to drive the diesel Smart car from Windsor into Detroit, the guys with guns were under strict orders from EPA to not allow such cars in unless there was permission and they were not going to stay in the US.
very interesting stuff... i hope they all go to hell (EPA & the big 3)
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Although the 09's are huge compared to the MK4s and heavier, but the MPGs are still lower then one would expect.
Very much so... the 09' is a beast compared to the earlier cars... My first MK1 had manual everything and no a/c - got over 50 mpg :-)
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We get 50mpg out of our eTDI 1Z motor. First gen TDI in USA and it gets better fuel economy in a heavier car with much higher performance than many here are claiming out of their 80's 1.6L's.
I'm not flaming at aall. I love the older cars. I personally find something almost magical about them. They have personality where few new cars do.
But here's a more fun kicker for you-
With a 40% or so bigger turbo, larger nozzles, newer ECU with aggressive chipset, and still cruising the factory exhaust, intake, and intercooler, with me driving (I eat tires for lunch and love the color red if you catch me) gets 46mpg. Worst I can get it to do (bumping around town with mad accel constantly) is about 42. Its my folks car, and both of them pretty consistently get right around 50mpg.
Heres the fun part to that. We've owned the car since it had about 30k miles on it (it has roughly 200k more now lol) and as long as it had good filters, good fuel, and inflated tires (I go 5PSI past max recommended on every vehicle, unless the weight comes up near the max rated, then I back it down to right at max pressure) it has always gotten 40-49mpg. This is in a 96 sedan Passat. A tiny bit heavier than a A1 or A2.
I have a buddy with an 02 New Beetle with the ALH TDI. As long as his VNT isn't sticky (annoying little buggers) and he also has good filters, good fuel, and inflated tires, he'll get 40-55.
Now don't ask about BEW's or the Passat TDI that ran for a year or 2.
Now here's another interesting thing. I had read about a couple that bought a new TDI Jetta and toured the 48 contigeous United States, putting something like 10,000 miles on the car, and they averaged 58mpg. Thats pretty danged impressive. What'd they do for such mileage? Smileage at that point (lol). They just said they used good defensive driving. 65mph or so, follow with appropriate distance, coast to a stoplight, not speed up to then slam the brakes. Avoid mad acceleration and braking, you know, obvious stuff.
I've seen the 09. Its pretty. It purrs. It gets. Haven't asked the dealership exactly what they are averaging (its a dedicated test drive vehicle) but I heard some of the guys saying it was getting "Better than they expected" whatever that means.
I haven't done much research on it either. No idea things like what kind of turbo it has, how its common rail is set up, etc.
Another thing-
Complete combustion of a hydrocarbon chain in an atmosphere of Oxygen results in Carbon DiOxide, and DiHydrogen Monoxide (H20!)
So you can't avoid CO2 emissions.
Heres the thing- cold spots create incomplete hydrocarbon combustion, hot spots generate massive heat that allows Nitrogen and Oxygen to fuse. NOx. Other functions in the combustion chamber create things like Carbon Monoxide and the likes.
The best way to generate more complete combustion beyond swirling, proper fuel atomization, etc, would be to generate perfectly uniform chamber temperatures, from less than a micron off of the cylinder wall, piston crown, head surface, valves, etc to the center of the chamber/bowl. No cold spots, hot spots, perfectly uniform temperatures. Then you incorporate perfect swirl patterns that perfectly distribute the fuel mix in the air everywhere in the chamber.
Needless to say thats hard to do.
Now you introduce exhaust restrictions and turbulations, EGR's, Cats and more Cats, DPF's, more mufflers, etc. Engine has to work harder to pump a unit of exhaust out. Intake restrictions come in. Has to work harder to get air in.
Personally, I'd like to see a 09 TDI perform with no cat, no DPF, no EGR, as little intake and exhaust restriction as possible. Emissions higher? Duh. More power? Very likely. Better mileage? Probably.
Maybe I'll buy one and put it in a gokart like the 1.5 IDI will get.... Hmmmm.... Insulate the ECM... (off on a tangent)
I am not an engineer. I am not an expert. I only know so much. But this seems to make sense to me.
BTW, we seem to have pretty good control on the 1Z? Go talk to people who know what they are doing tuning them. Charlie Migliore perhaps? KERMATDI.
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The part that always blows me away are the e-tdi ECU reprograms or aftermarket chips that boost HP and oftern result in better mileage, WTF??? Are emissions paying the price there??
An interesting comparison is Harley Davidson who purposely sells drasticly de-tuned motors so they can sell HP upgrade options. Oh I may digress...
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The part that always blows me away are the e-tdi ECU reprograms or aftermarket chips that boost HP and oftern result in better mileage, WTF??? Are emissions paying the price there??
Typically tuners advance the timing some to get the increase in MPGs, and that does increase NOx...
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They say it with regulations that are not approved by law makers, but some un-named bureaucrat who posts the ever increasing rules for small diesels - Currently the air exiting the TIER2-BIN5 cars in America must be cleaner than the air entering the air cleaner.
I don't think T2B5 over the FTP tests is cleaner than the ambient average in the U.S. If you can provide proof of this I'm all for it, but unless we're talking about the port of LA with emissions from bunker fuel in ships and thousands of idling rigs I don't think it's the case.
Yet, EPA allows LARGE diesels to pump to pump out tons of NOx and soot. That's why your 18 wheelers and dump trucks are still bellowing black smoke at the stop light.
The EPA and CARB held auto diesels to the same standards gassers did so they could rule out all other emissions sources when going after HD diesels. If they didn't and went after gross polluters, what they're doing now, then the companies they're going after could tie them up in court for years, maybe decades. It's not that the EPA is fine and dandy w/ gross pollution from semis, it's that they had to go after them last because they would fight the most.
In these hard times, don't you think the Big 3 would sell in the US their small VERY high mpg diesel cars here they already sell to the rest of the world ? EPA will not allow this.
That has nothing to do w/ the EPA. VW sells their diesels at maybe ~$1k over MSRP compared to a similarly equipped gasoline model, and half of that $1k is probably due to the higher costs of a diesel engine, so maybe an extra $500 for the needed emissions equipment, not a huge premium.
The problem other manufacturers face is trying to get a piece of the pie VW has held for years at a time when people aren't looking to buy new cars and gas prices are through the floor while diesel prices are lagging somewhat. People aren't very likely to buy a diesel Focus from Ford for $16k compared to a gas version for $15k because gas is ~$1.20-1.60/gallon while diesel is still around $1.60-2/gallon. They would be paying a grand premium for a compact when gasoline prices are the lowest they've been in a half decade and diesel prices are still higher. Granted, it would probably get better mileage, but that's not much of a concern w/ sub $2/gallon gas. That's why car companies like Honda have delayed introducing their diesel versions over here.
I personally worked with a guy at Robert Bosch. He was doing a dog and phony show in Pontiac for auto insiders where we got to drive some of these diesel cars on a private lot (Former home of the Detroit Lions)... he had no problems getting these cars off ship with "M" plates, but the moment he tried to drive the diesel Smart car from Windsor into Detroit, the guys with guns were under strict orders from EPA to not allow such cars in unless there was permission and they were not going to stay in the US.
That's true of any vehicle w/ an engine that isn't EPA approved AFAIK. I can't even import a complete foreign vehicle for onroad use w/o EPA approval unless it's U.S. spec.
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actually technically arp is right... the air going out of the car has to be cleaner than the air going in... when you factor in the air cleaner :lol:
CO2 doesn't count as being 'dirt'.
people also don't realize that diesels make up for the higher fuel price in extra miles per gallon. that and the fact that diesel engines generally last longer, means it is a great investment. but there are so many uneducated people out there who don't know this. they think they're comparing apples to apples with fuel prices, but they aren't. its more like.. apples to bananas.. and i'll take a banana anyday over an apple. :lol: (no sexual reference intended :roll:)
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An interesting comparison is Harley Davidson who purposely sells drasticly de-tuned motors so they can sell HP upgrade options. Oh I may digress...
In Europe, Mercedes does this too but is very open about it - "Oh, you want the first level of power increase - $2,000 extra, second level $4,000, and unrestricted engine output (max power) an extra $8,000." Remember, you can get diesel mercedes there for $20,000 new.
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regcheese, did you get this sorted?
God no! I got really worried and confused about emissions so I'm sticking to petrol.
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regcheese, did you get this sorted?
God no! I got really worried and confused about emissions so I'm sticking to petrol.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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In regards to emissions, I think we are just wasting time, money and effort trying to get an internal combustion engine to be environmentally friendly.
For example, a lot of the emission controls on a vehicle reduce it's fuel economy. This results in the need to pump more crude from the ground, transport through pipelines, then to tankers to cross the ocean, then more pipelines some transports etc etc. Each one of these stages increase the amount of pollutants created while making the car more environmentally friendly.
Then there is all the electronic and mechanical add-ons to the motor; EGR, MAFs, MAPs, etc etc not to mention miles of wires and vacuum hoses. A lot of these are wear items and need to be replaced. That's more resources pulled from the earth, refined, transported and then disposed of.
At the end of the day, are the newest "green cars" any better then my 91 NA that only requires filters, nozzles and glowplugs every now and again? I have my doubts, but I've been wrong before.
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regcheese, did you get this sorted?
God no! I got really worried and confused about emissions so I'm sticking to petrol.
blasphemy!
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actually technically arp is right... the air going out of the car has to be cleaner than the air going in... when you factor in the air cleaner :lol:
Saying people are right is fine but where's the proof? It shouldn't be too hard to show.
people also don't realize that diesels make up for the higher fuel price in extra miles per gallon. that and the fact that diesel engines generally last longer, means it is a great investment. but there are so many uneducated people out there who don't know this. they think they're comparing apples to apples with fuel prices, but they aren't. its more like.. apples to bananas.. and i'll take a banana anyday over an apple. :lol: (no sexual reference intended :roll:)
People also don't realize that an electric velomobile would be the cheapest of just about anything for personal transportation, but that doesn't mean they're uneducated IMO, just that they haven't been exposed to the information. In terms of diesels, or any new vehicle in the U.S. market during a recessions w/ gas prices at 5-10 year lows, it just isn't something manufacturers are willing to risk. It's not an emissions problem it's a money problem.
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In regards to emissions, I think we are just wasting time, money and effort trying to get an internal combustion engine to be environmentally friendly.
For example, a lot of the emission controls on a vehicle reduce it's fuel economy. This results in the need to pump more crude from the ground, transport through pipelines, then to tankers to cross the ocean, then more pipelines some transports etc etc. Each one of these stages increase the amount of pollutants created while making the car more environmentally friendly.
That's why refineries and the like have emissions regulations they have to adhere to, at least in the states.
Then there is all the electronic and mechanical add-ons to the motor; EGR, MAFs, MAPs, etc etc not to mention miles of wires and vacuum hoses. A lot of these are wear items and need to be replaced. That's more resources pulled from the earth, refined, transported and then disposed of.
MAF/MAP are just air flow/pressure sensors, not strictly an emissions component. Anyway, maybe if you're looking at a vehicle from the 80s, when emissions systems were in their infancy and god awful, it's a rats nest of crap, but these days most cars don't even have EGR valves anymore. They just phase the exhaust cam to keep some of the gases trapped, internal EGR IIRC. The engine bay is incredibly clean w/ more room in it than my diesel bunny has.
At the end of the day, are the newest "green cars" any better then my 91 NA that only requires filters, nozzles and glowplugs every now and again? I have my doubts, but I've been wrong before.
In terms of emissions, maintenance, safety. and power output compared to economy. probably. But it's your choice whether or not the MSRP/extra insurance is worth getting something that's better in those aspects.
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Honda made several concept cars that literally, in all but the cleanest downtown major cities, pushed cleaner air out the tailpipe than it pumped through the intake (post-filter :lol: ) Not sure if they hit production.
I still think that keeping the chamber temps uniform and getting optimum swirl is the best way to go. Now how to keep the temps more or less equal? No clue. Maybe a sleeve of metal that has low heat transfer and keeps more of it in the chamber to be used for air expansion, rather than hot coolant?
I work parts.
I sell starters, alternators, maybe some gaskets to the older engine crowd. Even in the case of a rebuild, most people are only staring a few hundred down.
I sell Cam Position Sensors, Crank Pos Sens, VSS's, MAF's, AFM's, MAP's, ICM's, IAT's, IAC's, etc to the new car crowd.
HEck, there's several people with 5 or less year old cars that are just out of warranty that have spent hundreds (one guy well into the thousands) trying to keep good sensors in their cars.
One bum hydraulic actuator- forget about your variable valve anything, say hello to mediocre performance and high fuel consumption.
One bum knock sensor, kiss fuel economy good bye and maybe even a piston or two, depending how advanced it keeps it.
Bad O2 sensor? Fuel economy, power, and emissions.
Slightly worn sparkers? All kinds of fun potentially.
Yea, a lot of that is gasser type stuff, but regardless.
Heck, we have a guy with a 60's Opel GT who comes in and gets great fuel economy, and all he usually needs are filters or contact points. I once sold him a head gasket set (that took 6 days to get in lol) but in the last year he's maybe spent $400?
Now, when your super-electronic-noodle wire-everywhere car is running right, its awesome. But just let one little electrical demon sneak in and cue hundreds of dollars trying to diagnose it. Maybe you'll get lucky and it'll take a half hour to find. But probably not.
Heh. My 80's Toyota Tercel 4wd's with their little 1.5L I-4 have 22 feet of vacuum hose in a big spidery mess. Solution? Weber 32/36 baby.
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Honda made several concept cars that literally, in all but the cleanest downtown major cities, pushed cleaner air out the tailpipe than it pumped through the intake (post-filter :lol: ) Not sure if they hit production.
They have a modern version of the CVCC in the way of a diesel they are going to stell here in the states around 2009. http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061002/SUB/60929098/1124/TOC&refcat=Automotive%20News%20Table%20of%20Contents
Heh. My 80's Toyota Tercel 4wd's with their little 1.5L I-4 have 22 feet of vacuum hose in a big spidery mess. Solution? Weber 32/36 baby.[/quote]
I have plan "B" for you - Drop an IDI in your Toyota !!
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One bum knock sensor, kiss fuel economy good bye and maybe even a piston or two, depending how advanced it keeps it.
When knock sensors fail they typically become hypersensitive, and retard timing more than it should be, no harm to the engine, but reduced power and increased emissions are the result.
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Honda made several concept cars that literally, in all but the cleanest downtown major cities, pushed cleaner air out the tailpipe than it pumped through the intake (post-filter :lol: ) Not sure if they hit production.
That really doesn't impress me at all. Basically rather then pushing the pollutants out the tailpipe, they get trapped in the various filters which then have to be disposed of. It's not solving anything, just putting it in a different form to be dealt with later.
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Honda made several concept cars that literally, in all but the cleanest downtown major cities, pushed cleaner air out the tailpipe than it pumped through the intake (post-filter :lol: ) Not sure if they hit production.
That really doesn't impress me at all. Basically rather then pushing the pollutants out the tailpipe, they get trapped in the various filters which then have to be disposed of. It's not solving anything, just putting it in a different form to be dealt with later.
There are no extra filters that clog and need to be disposed of in those ultra clean cars.
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HEck, there's several people with 5 or less year old cars that are just out of warranty that have spent hundreds (one guy well into the thousands) trying to keep good sensors in their cars.
[...]
Bad O2 sensor? Fuel economy, power, and emissions
Depends on whether or not that's the only O2 sensor and how fast the ECU throws a code and runs only in open loop. My friend's dad had an old Dodge w/ a bum O2 sensor that would run like crap for a full half hour or so after it started up and finally throw a code and run o.k. But my Toyota car was fine w/ the O2 sensors out, and it even passed smog. Same economy, same emissions, same power. What you're talking about seems more like a model to model thing, not gasser versus diesel. Even w/ a rat's nest of emissions crap I have a Toyota pickup w/ ~240k miles and my cousin ha one w/ ~500k miles. About the same level of drivetrain build quality, and way better interior/etc. It's not what something is, but how it's built IME.
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Honda made several concept cars that literally, in all but the cleanest downtown major cities, pushed cleaner air out the tailpipe than it pumped through the intake (post-filter :lol: ) Not sure if they hit production.
That really doesn't impress me at all. Basically rather then pushing the pollutants out the tailpipe, they get trapped in the various filters which then have to be disposed of. It's not solving anything, just putting it in a different form to be dealt with later.
There are no extra filters that clog and need to be disposed of in those ultra clean cars.
Do you have some links to the cars you are talking about? I'm not familiar with these ultra clean cars
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Basically rather then pushing the pollutants out the tailpipe, they get trapped in the various filters which then have to be disposed of.
Do you have a link to the car(s) you are talking about? ;-)
I was referring to PZEVs (Partial Zero Emissions Vehicles), which I have heard, when run in LA, have emissions cleaner than the air that went into the engine.
Also, the EPA doens't allow emissions equipment that needs servicing before 150,000 miles, which is why urea injection for NOx control in Diesels has not happened here yet.
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I was referring to PZEVs (Partial Zero Emissions Vehicles), which I have heard, when run in LA, have emissions cleaner than the air that went into the engine.
Where in LA? If it's by the port then my diesel bunny probably emits fewer pollutants than are in the air. We're talking ~30 extra deaths/year (http://articles.latimes.com/2005/oct/05/local/me-air4) attributed to pollution in that area.
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I know!!
Its just that the Tercel4wd tranny- for a pic attached to the venerable 4AGE, and a random guy with odd hair (it isn't mine) look here- is odd and is hard to adapt. Not to mention a roughly 100ft/lb torque limitation.
http://picasaweb.google.com/synthdesign/85TercelSR54WDSilverBullet#5276436102252570754
Notice the big white circle just under the oilpan. Thats the front CV hole. Lol. All-time front wheel, selectable true four wheel.
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I was referring to PZEVs (Partial Zero Emissions Vehicles), which I have heard, when run in LA, have emissions cleaner than the air that went into the engine.
Where in LA?
The LA basin as a whole, the air might be a touch worse by the ports, but air is pretty homogenized so exact location doesn't make a huge difference.
If it's by the port then my diesel bunny probably emits fewer pollutants than are in the air.
I've been around plenty of old IDIs, I'm sure if you locked yourself in a garage with a running IDI you'd die within 24 hours at most, you'd probably be dead in a few hours is my guess. If the air was truly dirtier around the ports than your exhaust how would anybody be able to work a whole 8 hour shift there?
I found this browsing around, which shows that MPGs are a poor measure of tailpipe emissions,
Diesel trucks spew pollutants as they cruise Interstate 5 and Highway 99. Though cleaner engines and fuel are on the way, manufacturers knowingly produced 1.3 million engines that emit excess pollution to improve gas mileage and performance on the freeway.
This is interesting as well, I can assure you that the %10 in question are not new computer controlled cars.
Less than 10% of the cars produce most of the automobile pollution.
Above quotes from here (http://www.valleyairquality.com/).
Here (http://www.demographia.com/db-usmetap-8897.htm) is another page about air quality, from the late 80s to the late 90s air quality improved massively in the LA area. Fuel Injection started dominating the new car market in the mid to late 80s, by 97 all new cars came with fuel injection, and there is a massive corresponding drop in pollution. While the air is still certainly crap in the LA area, it is certainly better than it was before cars were computer controlled.
Are we off topic enough yet? :lol:
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Here (http://www2.sas.com/proceedings/sugi22/INFOVIS/PAPER173.PDF) is another page showing significant declines in air pollution as automobile technology has advanced, and those decreases in pollution also happened as the population in that area increased notably, by about %30 actually.
from here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Los_Angeles_Area)
1980 11,497,486
1990 14,531,529
Or maybe I'm totally off base and auto manufacturers are intentionally making cars that are not reliable, so they will break down a lot, so they can then make lots of money repairing them, and it actually has nothing to do with emissions...
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I was referring to PZEVs (Partial Zero Emissions Vehicles), which I have heard, when run in LA, have emissions cleaner than the air that went into the engine.
Where in LA?
The LA basin as a whole, the air might be a touch worse by the ports, but air is pretty homogenized so exact location doesn't make a huge difference.
Pollution varies greatly (http://www.scorecard.org/env-releases/cap/rank-monitors-in-county.tcl?how_many=25&pollutant=co_1hr&fips_state_code=06&fips_county_code=06037) according to location, time of day, time of year, events, etc... For instance the top two locations for 1hr CO are only five miles away, yet one has twice as much CO as the other does.
If it's by the port then my diesel bunny probably emits fewer pollutants than are in the air.
I've been around plenty of old IDIs, I'm sure if you locked yourself in a garage with a running IDI you'd die within 24 hours at most, you'd probably be dead in a few hours is my guess. If the air was truly dirtier around the ports than your exhaust how would anybody be able to work a whole 8 hour shift there?
Are you serious? You'll die in a garage w/ a running vehicle for the same reason you'll die if you seal up your house too much w/ any CO source, which has very little to do w/ local air pollution and a lot to do w/ CO poisoning. Even gassers need to light off a cat and are dangerous (http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Pages/communications/CO/co_car.html) in enclosed spaces.
The rest I agree with, but heavy duty diesels have little to no emissions requirements, especially ocean based sources, which is why CA is regulating them. It's no coincidence that pollution spikes dramatically the closer one gets to the port.
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Are you serious? You'll die in a garage w/ a running vehicle for the same reason you'll die if you seal up your house too much w/ any CO source, which has very little to do w/ local air pollution and a lot to do w/ CO poisoning.
New cars have very low CO emissions, a new car might kill you due to O2 depletion, but from CO poisoning it would take a very long time, probably not ever.
CARB does not like CO, the smog formation reaction goes like this, CO + 2O2 + sunlight = O3 (ozone, bad) + CO2.
Hows this, we both lock ourselves in garages with a car running, you with a IDI, me with a brand new PZEV vehicle, first guy to die looses :lol: ;-) I kid I kid!
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New cars have very low CO emissions, a new car might kill you due to O2 depletion, but from CO poisoning it would take a very long time, probably not ever.
New cars still have to light off the catalytic converter for it to function, and while that rich mixture is being sent through the cat HC and CO emissions spike. In fact most of the pollution from a gasser is during a cold (emissions) start up. Did you read the page I linked?"When cold engines first start, they run rich," Greiner said. The catalytic converter is cold and not converting deadly carbon monoxide (CO) to carbon dioxide (CO2). Concentrations in the exhaust can be more than 80,000 parts per million. Concentrations so large fill the garage with carbon monoxide in a very short time even with the door open. Once the car is backed out of the garage and the garage door closed, large concentrations of gas still remain trapped in the garage. In a house built with an attached garage, part of the gas then seeps into the house where it remains for hours.
Here's (http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=2&q=http://dtea.ist.utl.pt/pdf/publicacoes/revistas/Silva_Farias_Costa_Santos_Evaluation__Catalytic_Converter.pdf&ei=P5xESa2SCaCaNfvtvbwL&usg=AFQjCNE8ccGW2iH7Mdprm6OqJ67jbVGVyw) a paper from 2006 that illustrates poor (~35%) CO conversion efficiency at idle, which would definitely translate into a dead vehicle operator in an enclosed garage, albeit at some later time compared to a vehicle built when emissions standards were lower.
the conversion efficiencies are lower for idle conditions, probably due to the low inlet temperature, which can be a problem under traffic conditions where idle is a common situation, for example, at congested arterials and for long period stops at traffic lights or at intersections. This problem is increased in the first seconds of a cold start where the vehicle catalyst has not reach its normal operating conditions and the mixture can be rich[/i]
CARB does not like CO, the smog formation reaction goes like this, CO + 2O2 + sunlight = O3 (ozone, bad) + CO2.
And CARB's done a great job at regulating emissions, but even the newest cleanest engine produces CO, especially during warm up/idle.
Hows this, we both lock ourselves in garages with a car running, you with a IDI, me with a brand new PZEV vehicle, first guy to die looses :lol: ;-) I kid I kid!
You first. :P
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New cars have very low CO emissions, a new car might kill you due to O2 depletion, but from CO poisoning it would take a very long time, probably not ever.
New cars still have to light off the catalytic converter for it to function, and while that rich mixture is being sent through the cat HC and CO emissions spike. In fact most of the pollution from a gasser is during a cold (emissions) start up. Did you read the page I linked?
Pick-up emissions are far dirtier than a cars, especially a new car. But I certainly agree that before a cat lights off the exhaust is dirtier than after it lights off.
Here's (http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=2&q=http://dtea.ist.utl.pt/pdf/publicacoes/revistas/Silva_Farias_Costa_Santos_Evaluation__Catalytic_Converter.pdf&ei=P5xESa2SCaCaNfvtvbwL&usg=AFQjCNE8ccGW2iH7Mdprm6OqJ67jbVGVyw) a paper from 2006 that illustrates poor (~35%) CO conversion efficiency at idle, which would definitely translate into a dead vehicle operator in an enclosed garage, albeit at some later time compared to a vehicle built when emissions standards were lower.
So we're in agreement then 8)
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Here's (http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=2&q=http://dtea.ist.utl.pt/pdf/publicacoes/revistas/Silva_Farias_Costa_Santos_Evaluation__Catalytic_Converter.pdf&ei=P5xESa2SCaCaNfvtvbwL&usg=AFQjCNE8ccGW2iH7Mdprm6OqJ67jbVGVyw) a paper from 2006 that illustrates poor (~35%) CO conversion efficiency at idle, which would definitely translate into a dead vehicle operator in an enclosed garage, albeit at some later time compared to a vehicle built when emissions standards were lower.
So we're in agreement then 8)
That you're wrong about a new car not being able to kill someone via CO poisoning? Yup, I agree entirely. ;)
New cars have very low CO emissions, a new car might kill you due to O2 depletion, but from CO poisoning it would take a very long time, probably not ever.
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I've searched and searched and read countless threads but am struggling to find a mTDI solution that REALLY works.
When you dig you uncover little problems and issues with all of them, smoke, starting, lack of power etc
Anybody have a 100% solution yet, if so what is the recipe? or will the mTDI remain a flawed compromise?
Well here you go the 5cyl M-TDI in a eurovan we just finished.
running really well. videos to prove it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyhqGmoIUP4
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don't forget there's no muffler on that thing... one reason it's so loud :wink:
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Quite happy to believe that it can be done and with your rep - have no reason to doubt it. But as for us mere mortals?
however the only thing that video proves is that it starts, clacks like a Lada, and then drives away .......... very slowly ;-)
I appreciate your help and believe me this is a reciprocal arrangement, as I normally point people to yourself with performance pump requirements - however the shipping is prohibitive.
I think I will stay IDI for the next engine build and then maybe supply of donor motors will force me to go PD or TDI in the future.
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How can you have access to this site & not believe m-tdi engines both exist and can be easily made to run well???
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I've searched and searched and read countless threads but am struggling to find a mTDI solution that REALLY works.
When you dig you uncover little problems and issues with all of them, smoke, starting, lack of power etc
Anybody have a 100% solution yet, if so what is the recipe? or will the mTDI remain a flawed compromise?
Well here you go the 5cyl M-TDI in a eurovan we just finished.
running really well. videos to prove it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyhqGmoIUP4
Cor, that's really weird!
I fix T4's with 2.5TDI's in all the time, that is weird, first it being left hand drive threw me, wheres the pollen filter!
:lol:
then the engine is just, weird as opposed what I'm used to!
wow, weird.
(did I say weird enough to get the message accross!)
I've only got the 88hp version, but even that flies, sounds lovely and I kick the *** out of it daily and I can't get worse than 27mpg.
T4 2.5 TDI's are brilliant, it's a shame you lot didn't get real ones!
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Ok, it's been cold here. I forgot to plug the car in this morning, and it was 4* this morning. That's *F, not wimpy *C. I still have 15W40, and although it turned over slow, it started just fine, so I don't see where the starting "issues" part of the complaint comes from. Maybe I should also mention that even though I only need a 2 hole gasket, I have a 3 hole in it.
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and then drives away .......... very slowly ;-)
Haha, that's because Jay was driving :lol: It actually pulls pretty good. It's a syncro and also weighs somewhere around 6000 lbs, in case that hasn't been mentioned. In real life it's less clacky, I think that's just the camera Giles was using.
Baxter, what gearbox are you normally using? Is it from a syncro?
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New cars have very low CO emissions, a new car might kill you due to O2 depletion, but from CO poisoning it would take a very long time, probably not ever.
[/quote]
Let us not forget, in an enclosed space, CO2 is still VERY toxic above 7% - 10%. - there will still be enough O2 to sustain life, but the CO2 will become toxic first. That is why subs and diving with an O2 rebreather requires a CO2 scrubber.
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and then drives away .......... very slowly ;-)
Haha, that's because Jay was driving :lol: It actually pulls pretty good. It's a syncro and also weighs somewhere around 6000 lbs, in case that hasn't been mentioned. In real life it's less clacky, I think that's just the camera Giles was using.
Baxter, what gearbox are you normally using? Is it from a syncro?
What ever they came from the factory with.
The 1.9D, the 1.9TD, the 2.4D and the 88hp 2.5TDI (AJT etc..)came with what is essentially a Golf gearbox, the 102hp TDI (ACV etc...) came with a different , much larger gearbox with reverse in a different position.
Someone said on another forum that the 102 and 151 hp versions gearbox are sourced from Fiat, from the Ducato but I never bothered checking.
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here is the Beltronics Vector dyno run of Jason's EURO only 5 cyl M-TDI
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=52695&id=509458488&saved#/photo.php?pid=1179648&id=509458488
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we'll have to dyno mine too sometime... if the clutch will ever hold the power :roll: :lol: