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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: 1life2live on November 29, 2008, 04:18:39 pm
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So i have had and 84 jetta td for a couple of years now but most of the time that i have owned it, it hasnt been running. The injection pump and injectors were shot and once i had them fixed i didnt know how it all went back together correctly. I have recently got it back together with some help from a friend and in that time found this site and found all this useful info on tuning these little motors.
Now i put a new 2 notch head gasket back on with new factory headbolts and the pump and injectors are fresh. I want to get the most out of this motor with what i already have in it. Im not ready to tear it back apart and put a metal gasket and headstuds in and i dont want to tear into the pump and do the governor mod. So how much boost/power can i get out of this motor safely nad how should i go about doing it. I have already blocked off the blow off valve but it doesnt make a difference without turning up the fuel i guess. Im getting ready to install an egt gauge and already have a boost gauge in the car. Im guessing from what i have red i need a boost controller and to turn the fuel screw off. I am also going to build a full 2.5" turbo back exhaust.
What else can i do to get more power???
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http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=645
Good luck :wink:
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I have read this post several times and believe i understand it. So the best option is to adjust the pin to recieve more boost? What is a safe amount of boost to run on the stock head gasket and bolts? I have read so much here but i guess i need it broken down a little. i dont understand all the abreviations and am not sure what applies to my engine and what doesnt.
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over 20 would be pushing it.Block off yourwaste gate or get a manual controller if you cant trust your foot.Turn it up till the smoke gets to bad then go back a notch.You can adjust where the "on boost" fueling starts coming on,Its controlled by the smoke screw"on top of the lda"If you have smoky starts then rotate the screw counter clockwise.Do this after youve adjusted the eccentric and spring.You can also shave the plastic washer thats on the boost pin to get more travel.:I removed mine!
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so then 15 to 18 pounds is ok? Where is the line that i should tap into on the wastegate? there looks to be two lines a bigger one and a smaller one. and what does shaving or removing the plastic washer actually do when it gives it more travel? is it just giving it more fuel at more boost or does it feed it quicker to allow it to spool up faster. I know a fair amount about gas engines but this diesel stuff especially the idi system is really new to me and its like im reading the french side of the forum sometimes. Thanks for your patience on helping a newb out.
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also what are you guys setting your pump timing at? I have seen here that a couple people are setting it a little higher then the bentley says to. Just wondering if theres a benefit to my situation to do this or if its only for those really putting down some power
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so then 15 to 18 pounds is ok? Where is the line that i should tap into on the wastegate? there looks to be two lines a bigger one and a smaller one. and what does shaving or removing the plastic washer actually do when it gives it more travel? is it just giving it more fuel at more boost or does it feed it quicker to allow it to spool up faster. I know a fair amount about gas engines but this diesel stuff especially the idi system is really new to me and its like im reading the french side of the forum sometimes. Thanks for your patience on helping a newb out.
also what are you guys setting your pump timing at? I have seen here that a couple people are setting it a little higher then the bentley says to. Just wondering if theres a benefit to my situation to do this or if its only for those really putting down some power
Shaving the plastic washer allows the boost pin to push down further into the pump. This in turn allows the follower to move further which allows more fuel to be injected. The washer is the "stop" for the boost pin, but the stock boost was lower so to get more range out of it you need to remove / modify the washer. It won't change when boost comes on but it will allow more fuel to be added when you are at higher levels of boost, which in turn creates more heat, which in turn pushes the turbo higher allowing it to put out more pressure, although it also can potentially raise your EGT's beyond safe levels if you start adding too much fuel.
Pump timing has to do with a few things:
- The factory timing assumes a brand new injection pump with no wear whatsoever. As the pump wears it tends to retard the timing, so more advance is needed than the 'book' value for an "experienced" pump
- The factory timing was designed to keep emissions levels in check. NOx is really hard to regulate on a diesel and the more advance you throw at it the higher the NOx readings. That's why the later model AAZ motors actually lock out the advance on their pumps under most "normal" driving. More advance = better economy, better combustion, higher NOx levels...
So yes, you probably want to bump your pump timing up a bit over the stock numbers. The "right" number for your particular engine and pump will be different than mine or anyone else's due to different levels of wear on the pump, injectors and engine. It's basically a "try it and see where it likes it" kind of thing. Make SMALL adjustments - like a pencil line more advance at the pump bracket at a time.
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If you read up the boost diaphram(lda)gets pushed down with the pin which in turn has a pin riding on it horizentally.When it gets pushed down the pin slides down the eccentric in turn overriding the governor(throttle) plate position.when you move the pin around you can get more horiz. travel.as well as lowering the spring seat to allow it to max out quiker = more boost+temps+cylinder pressure
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thanks for all the input guys i really appreciate it. I want to know who of you have your own gauge to set the injection pump timing with? I bought one from prothe and its in inches not mm. I thought i had the conversion figured out but if i do then my pump timing is really out of wack. Anyone else have a gauge thats in Inches, if so what do you set it to on the gauge?
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And if you end up converting 1mm to be 0.039" on your new dial indicator you've got it, baby !! :wink:
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/vwaldon/timing_gauge_at_39-1.jpg)
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Ok thanks for the info. I got an egt gauge already and am going to put it in when i build my downpipe. I did the google conversion and it came out to .039. Thanks for the picture im guessing that is showing .039 on the gauge. I think i was reading the gauge wrong so this will help ill try it when i get hame and let youo know what i come up with.
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well i built my 2.5" mandrel bent, turbo back exhaust and installed an egt gauge this weekend after i finally got the timing set right, i think. I drove it last nite and again this morning to work and it seems to be running good with the exception that it heats up a little more than it did before. I did put new coolant lines on it while everything else was apart so i may have an air bubble in the system. The egt gauge doesnt start reading until im driving down the road and even then it seems on the low side from what i have read here. It reads about 450 cruising and only gets up to about 650-850 under load. I know that it is still stock and with the larger exhaust im sure thats keeping it cooler but i thought it would be a little higher and respond quicker. It wouldnt matter if the probe is possibly touching the side of the manifold would it? I drilled the hole and welded the bung onto the back of the manifold but there may be a chance that it is touching when threaded in. Once i get the cooling issue straight im gonna start turning up the fuel.
Also is anyone running a high volume oil pump? My oil pressure at the head when warm is only about 15psi so i was thinking of dropping the pan and putting in a high volume pump
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That sure sounds cold to me, are you sure it directly in the exhaust stream?
Mine idles @ 350-400 and runs 600-700 ish on the freeway @ 3000 rpm.
Can hit 1400 under WOT :shock: Wonder what it would be without the FMIC.?
Your warm idle psi is "OK" but a 36mm pump would do better.
It's an easy swap as I'm sure you know and a worthy one.
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yea i thought it was a little cold and yes it is directly in the exhaust manifold im just wondering if its far enoug in the manifold. with the bung and the tickness of the manifold maybe its not all the way inside. im going to order a pump then and i found out i need a fan switch as one of the terminals pulled out on mine.
How far should the egt probe be inside the manifold?
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I suspect it all depends on the length of the probe?
Mine is approx 4" maybe and I have prob 3" of it in the exhaust stream at the base of the turbo.
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mine is not that long maybe 3" at the most so i think only the tip is in the manifold. that could be why its not reading as well but then again its pointed right at one of the cylinders so it should be getting hit directly with heat from that cylinder. I dont know what else to do to test it im sure its not getting hot enough to worry about right now because i havnt cranked the fuel up and im not blowing any black smoke so i guess i shouldnt be that worried until then.
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also what gauge are you using? I bought a vdo gauge from jegs for 80 bucks figured it should be fine since vdo is a pretty good gauge company.
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I don't think you have enough of the probe in the stream.
I think you need 1/2 the probe in the stream at a min.
I'm using Autometer Ultralite II's.
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great guess i need to find a longer probe or cut down the bung so it will allow it to thread in further. im going to check and see if i can just buy a longer probe
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well day 2 of driving since i put everything back together and the car seems to be running fine with the exception that its a little hard to start if its not plugged in or already warm. When i went to leave work yesterday and today it struggled to stay running after i let the glow plugs run their full cycle. Im thinking i might not have the pump set perfect yet and may need to advance it? (move the pump towards the head) a little more. IF you pull the cold start lever it runs but shutters a little for about the first 15-20 seconds and then smooths out and then after about a minute you can take it off and it idles fine. Once its warm it starts fine and runs good and there is no smoke out of the exhaust under load. whats everyone think? I want to make sure the timings right before i mess with the boost pin and install my Lowes boost controller i made.
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15-20 seconds of crappy running sounds like the cylinders don't have any heat absorbed into them yet to allow for proper combustion.
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true but i know all the glow plugs are working because i tested them when i had the ip off. and it seems as though there getting power because they will light for a shorter period of time when the car is warm. i just thought maybe the ip timing was still slightly off.
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It could be a tad retarded. Can always try advancing it a bit to see if that helps.
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So i went home today and advanced the timing just a little and then went ahead and turned the fuel screw in one half turn and wow what a difference. When i first started the car it idled a little high so i turned the idle down and then took it for a drive. It idles much smoother and seems to have a little more power and does start easier. Ill see tommorow if it sarts any easier. It does smoke a little at WOT but the egt reading is still good. Next step is to install my boost controller
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It does smoke a little at WOT but the egt reading is still good. Next step is to install my boost controller
Next step should be to get the prob placed better.
Sure would suck to melt a piston because you were getting a incorrect reading no?
I'm not hammering on ya just need to stress the importance of a good EGT reading especially when you are playing with the fuel screw and boost levels.
Oh ya, seems you have the hard starting figured out.Give us an update after a few cold starts.
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yea im going to put a call into vdo about the probe position and how far in the manifold it is. i found longer probes and i think i may buy one of those. My only concern is that the probe could be touching the wall of the manifold and throwing the gauge off that way. dont know if thats possible i guess at worst it would just have a slower cool down time shown on the gauge
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i guess at worst it would just have a slower cool down time shown on the gauge
No, at worst you will have an inaccurate reading and damage your engine.
If it's not reading correctly which I suspect it is not you are never going to know what is really going on. Cool down will mean nada if you melt it down.
Can you snap a pic of it's current placement? Maybe I'm not picturing it correctly in my mind which is not hard for me to do.
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ZUKGOD1, i will try o take a picture of it tommorow. it is on the back side of the manifold with the wire end of the probe pointing at the firewall the tip should be directly inline with the exhaust poet on the head of the cylinder 2nd one in from the tranny side.
On another note i pulled the pan today and put in my new high volume oil pump and also installed a cam cover under the valve cover to keep the oil from going directly into the breather. Both were very easy to do and was worth it. The oil pressure is around 90lbs cold and somewhere around 25 to 30lbs warm. I also installed my manual boost controller and turned the diaphram in the lda so that the dot on the diaphram is directly across from the notch on the pump. I set the boost to 18lbs and the thing runs great what a difference a couple extra punds makes. I didnt do any long pulls as im still not sure about my egt gauge. i am going to pull it out tommorow and measure it and if i can get a longer one i will order it monday.
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Sounds like your getting it together nicely..
Yes please post up a pic of the probe. One with the probe in place and one of the probe it's self would be good if ya can.
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Here are two pictures of the egt probe installed and the third picture is the probe itself off of jegs website. It is the exact one that i have in the car. I talked to someone at jegs and they said the probe only has to be in the manifold 1/4" and i think i have that much in there but still dont think its accuratly reading. I did tack weld the bung on with the probe in place and im wondering if that may have screwed up the probe. Jegs tech said if it is not reading accuratly that they would replace it and i think i might call them and have them do that
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c207/travis017/cp1_1215081403.jpg)
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c207/travis017/cp1_1215081402.jpg)
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c207/travis017/918-310953_4.jpg)
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Hmm ok.
The problem I see with your placement is #1 and #4 are going to run different than #2 and #3 due to the nasty intake manifold's we have.
If you can you really need to move it directly under the turbo so its at the mouth of the turbo where all 4 cyls come together.
And that prob is TOO short.
I bet if you pull it out the tip may be black and thats it.
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thermocouples get more accurate toward the point or end of the material.The thinner the probe the faster the response.So that would make the tip the best spot to aim for.
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thermocouples get more accurate toward the point or end of the material.The thinner the probe the faster the response.So that would make the tip the best spot to aim for.
Not if that's all that's in the stream. I believe 50% of the probe needs to be in the exhaust to get an accurate measurement.
Figure the way his is positioned hes getting maybe 1/4" in the stream then the reaming 3" is shrouded in metal transferring heat.
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I can move it to the middle but then ill have to fill the hole in the manifold. Not a big deal I just dont think its going to make a difference in less for some reason #1 and #4 were to have something drastic happen which in that case the gauge is only telling me what a catastrophic failure would tell me anyway. I have yet to find a longer probe to run and am thinking of cutting the bung off and taping the manifold so that the probe is farther into the stream. I still think the probe is malfunctioning and needs to be replaced. Oh and the probe is black all the way up to about and inch up from the tip
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Drill and tap the manifold, you can use a pipe plug on the current hole. Easy stuff.
And you are correct it may not tell you more but why risk it when all it takes is drilling and tapping to eliminate the possibility? I suspect just moving it and tapping the manifold will help, that threaded bung you welded on looks to be at least 1/2", combine that with the length of the compression fitting and your way out there.