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General Information => General => Topic started by: Smokey Eddy on November 12, 2008, 12:52:19 am
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Where would be the best oil temp gauge sender locations? The oil sender on the head? or will that mess with stuff?
or the oil sender on the water/oil cooler sandwich?
Where should i put it?? Could i take the temp sender out of the head, cut it, tap the wire onto my aftermarket one and still get the same results as if it were on the stock sender?
I believe one of these temp senders to be responsible for the BUZZZZZ when you over heat.
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The stock oil temp sender location is in the oil filter mount. That's the best place.
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I was just going to post a similar question. I was installing a temp sender yesterday & ran into the delema of not knowing if the temp sender would be better upstream or downstream of my aux cooler. For some reason I thought the temp sender would be best upstream & the cooler fan temp switch downstream of the cooler.
Am I backwards?
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It's purpose is to measure the temp of the oil going into the block. The sandwich is the best place? What is the sender on the right hand side of the head?
anyone know what it's for?
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oil pressure
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Oooooo
Okay, so if i remove the factory one and put in one for my gauge, i won't have a flashing oil light for the rest of time?
by "one" i mean the one on the sandwich thing by the filter.
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Okie Dokie so i have one concern with doing that...
Pictures are a thousand words.
Sender goes here
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f279/edmcclung/SSPX0271.jpg)
But look at the sizes...
on the left, the stock one, on the right, the one for my gauge.
I realize i can just use the stock one for both (i've already spliced the lines together sort of speak, so i'm not deleting a good warning from the dash.)
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f279/edmcclung/SSPX0270.jpg)
Will that longer one be blocking anything in there?
It threads all the way into it ok.
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Those are two different types of senders - left is pressure, right is temperature, so you can't use the stock one for both. But to answer your question, I had the same concern using the VDO temp sender in the same location but I just went ahead with it and have had no issues yet.
Chris
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okay. Well thanks for that. I'll just go ahead and use it there then.
IN THAT CASE
I will screw the "glow plug" temp sender in the head and replace it with that pressure one and run the wire to it up there!!!
It's all at the same pressure everywhere right! Perfect. Is that what you did?
(it's kinda funny that they are all the same size and thread)
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Uh, I dunno if mine is correct...
The GP temp sensor is on the water outlet at the head, over about cyl. 3. Water temp sensor is on the heater outlet at the rear of the head, over the bellhousing. Oil pressure sensor is at the rear of the head, near the heater outlet.
Pressure would be highest at the oil filter flange, I believe.
Chris
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VWs with the multi-function display use the the standard M10x1 coolant sensor for oil temp and so do I (VDO cleverly made them the exact same resistance!).. I worry about the longer version occluding the oil flow:
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/vwaldon/oiltempsender.jpg)
Having said that, I've never had a filter flange with the oil temp in the location yours is tapped in... looks like perhaps it is deep enough.
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Uh, I dunno if mine is correct...
The GP temp sensor is on the water outlet at the head, over about cyl. 3. Water temp sensor is on the heater outlet at the rear of the head, over the bellhousing. Oil pressure sensor is at the rear of the head, near the heater outlet.
Pressure would be highest at the oil filter flange, I believe.
Chris
aw frick this electronic crap!!!
ok, so at the water outlet. There are TWO senders.
- glow plug temp sender
- water temp sender
correct?
on the right hand side of the head is the water temp sender? but oil came out of it when i took it off... This is so freakin frustrating im going to break something.
Ok im going to take pictures. Pictures solve everything. PLEASE correct me!!!!!
Oil Pressure Correct?
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f279/edmcclung/SSPX0271.jpg)
I now have no idea what this is for. I thought it was for oil temp.
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f279/edmcclung/SSPX0272.jpg)
I apologize for the terrible photo. This is the water out thing that has a sensor of some sort that has broken off. I couldn't find any wires hanging loosely so i don't know what this is for. Is this the GP temp sensor?
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f279/edmcclung/SSPX0274.jpg)
And now these, the most frustrating of them all. Anyone? One is the coolant temp sender for the dash. i know that.
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f279/edmcclung/SSPX0273.jpg)
The labels are for explaining purposes. Ok, on photobucket i edited labels on them but for some reason they aren't appearing.
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The VW Dynamic Oil Pressure Monitoring System (your dash warning light) reads the pressure from two locations. One at the oil filter (Your first picture, last post) and one on the head (second picture, last post). The two sensors are actually switches, set to different pressures.
I believe that primarily the system looks at the pressure at the filter mount (first picture), then above a certain RPM it starts looking at the status of the head-mounted sensor (second picture). You need both sensors to have a properly functioning stock oil pressure monitoring system.
For the temp sensors... I can't really help you. My diesel came out of a Quantum, not a Rabbit. Sensors should be the same, but the years are probably quite different.
The Quantum has a pair of single-wire temp sensors, like the one that Vince posted. One is for the dash gauge, one is shown wired for the glow plug circuit.
Old engines, like the Dasher, show a two-wire glow plug temp sensor on the rear of the head.
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Temp sensors;
One is for the gauge and the other is for the Glow plugs.
Both the sensors are the same so it doesnt matter which one plugs in on which sensor.
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So by adding an oil temp gauge you have to forfeit the oil pressure warning?
Anyone know what that one sensor in pic #3 is for? It unscrews and looks exactly like the other oil pressure ones.
Thank you both very much for clarifying those for me. I've been wondering about the two in the coolant T for a long time.
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If you keep adding tees you can have as many gauges as you want. :) I personally would get the pressure reading from the side of the head. Reason being that in theory, this should have pretty much the lowest pressure of the system.
For the temperature gauge I would try to locate it somewhere near the flange. Go post oil cooler, if you have one. Just make sure the temperature gauge is in a location that has a bit of flow going past it.
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And that's the problem of using a tee to add an oil temperature sensor unfortunately... you don't get much flow in a tee and so the response times can be quite slow.
Having said that, if your oil filter flange is not plumbed for an additional oil temperature sensor you don't have many options.. unless you own a M10 x 1 tap. :wink:
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And that's the problem of using a tee to add an oil temperature sensor unfortunately... you don't get much flow in a tee and so the response times can be quite slow.
Having said that, if your oil filter flange is not plumbed for an additional oil temperature sensor you don't have many options.. unless you own a M10 x 1 tap. :wink:
I might. Where would you tap?
If you keep adding tees you can have as many gauges as you want. Smile I personally would get the pressure reading from the side of the head. Reason being that in theory, this should have pretty much the lowest pressure of the system.
But would that be with straight after market gauges and senders? I was saying once you add oil temp into one of the stock oil pressure senders (they work as a pair) and then that stock function doesn't work anymore.
I think i'll just have to put the oil temp where the sandwich is and hope it doesn't block any flow. And then put the oil pressure sender in the top of the head to basically just fill the hole.
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But would that be with straight after market gauges and senders? I was saying once you add oil temp into one of the stock oil pressure senders (they work as a pair) and then that stock function doesn't work anymore.
I think i'll just have to put the oil temp where the sandwich is and hope it doesn't block any flow. And then put the oil pressure sender in the top of the head to basically just fill the hole.
You can retain the stock system's "dumber" setting by removing the head pressure sensor and running without it. It constantly monitors pressure coming out of the oil filter, so you'll know if you have a big problem like a gross loss of pressure from the pump/filter section itself, but you won't be informed of a blockage further along the chain.
From Bentley:
The components of the dynamic oil pressure warning system are the pressure switches, the electronic control unit, the low oil pressure indicator, and the warning buzzer. A 0.3 bar pressure switch provides a warning when the oil pressure falls to near zero at any time, including at idle. The other (1.8 bar) pressure switch provides earlier warning, at elevated RPM, whenever oil pressure falls below a minimum safe level.
The low pressure switches are located on the oil filter flange (0.3 bar) and on the end of the cylinder head (1.8 bar). The electronic control unit is located behind the instrument cluster.
The 1.8 bar pressure switch is normally open (no circuit to ground). When the engine is running above 2000 RPM, oil pressure closes the switch (completing circuit to ground). If oil pressure is insufficient to close the pressure switch, or the switch is stuck open, the indicator will flash and the buzzer will sound.
So you'd still have your "hey stupid, your oil pressure is really freaking low" functionality, but you'd be on your own for giving yourself a higher threshold monitoring function, like a gauge.
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Ok! wow thanks for that really good info!!!
I think i want to monitor the temp at the sandwich (people have said that's the best spot if you don't have an oil cooler) and then i'll re-route the 0.3 bar (hey stupid the oil pressure is near nil - turn the car off!!!) switch to the top of the head and just say screw it to the 1.8bar 2,000 RPM one. I'll just have to remember to use a bosch/mann filter all the time which i will never forget after last time :roll: .
I had a prior experience with a 20$ oil filter not holding enough pressure or screwing with the pressure and i got the oil light buzz at 2,000rpm. Got a real filter and it fixed it.
There,at the top of the head, the pressure would read the least the soonest right? making my 0.3bar more like >0.3 bar but it would obviously mean a significant drop.
Would that arrangement work?
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hello
same doubts here...
i want to mount a oil temp. gauge but retain all the stock ones.
could i tap the pan for the sender?
would the readings be helpfull?
and what about water temp gauge?
adding one too,the one in the dash sometimes reads low,weeks later reads high... :roll:
sorry for hijack... :oops:
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It's not a hijack. I am asking the same questions now that you have.
However, i don't think taping into the oil pan would be a good idea. It won't give you a good reading of what the temp of the oil is entering or exiting the block. It sits in the pan too long IMO.
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I've had my sending unit in the oil pan for about a year now. It is a digital gauge I got from Summit. I bought a second sender and installed it in the water return coming out of the head and back to the top of the radiator. Small switch to check head temp or oil temp sender and it all comes out one gauge. :D
I thought about the fact that this is the coolest place for the oil to hang out, but with the digital oil pressure gauge I can keep an eye on both. :wink:
-JB
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I bought a second sender and installed it in the water return coming out of the head and back to the top of the radiator
Did you just use a stock style sender but wired a gauge to it?
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i dont have the stock oil cooler but a mocal air/oil one.
if tapping the pan is not a good idea where do i put it?
and the water one?
i am sure all the water temp. gauges in the dash dont work properly... :roll:
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I've been considering where the best place to install a temp sender for he oil and still haven't really made a final decision.
There are good and bad on every location I think of.
If you read it at the filter mount you are reading for all intensive purpose's the temp in the pan sorta I'll get into that in a second here, it's pulling from the pan to the pump then through the filter then to the sender so basically the same as the pan. There may be some extra heat added due to the compression as it goes through the pump but I'll bet it's not to bad. Also in some cases there is the oil cooler in that step as well so you are reading what temp the oil is heading to the engine instead of reading what the return oil temp is. I don't feel that's a good way to read it, i want to know what temp the oil is coming OUT of the engine so the return oil temp is what I'm looking for.
And to address the comments of it sitting in the pan for a long time I'm going to have to disagree. I've not done the calculations as to how much the 36mm pump actually moves at what rpm but I dare say the oil isn't sitting in the pan for very long at all. So you are really reading what the oil temp the is after it is returned to the pan from the internals.
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The picture of the two senders that you have on the previous page, they both look like the one on the right. I dropped the pan and welded a bung to screw in the sender. For the coolant, there's a fitting that the upper rad hose attaches to on the block. That way it reads the coolant out of the head toward the rad. I got it of a VW gasser at the junk yard.
-JB
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I've been considering where the best place to install a temp sender for he oil and still haven't really made a final decision.
There are good and bad on every location I think of.
If you read it at the filter mount you are reading for all intensive purpose's the temp in the pan sorta I'll get into that in a second here, it's pulling from the pan to the pump then through the filter then to the sender so basically the same as the pan. There may be some extra heat added due to the compression as it goes through the pump but I'll bet it's not to bad. Also in some cases there is the oil cooler in that step as well so you are reading what temp the oil is heading to the engine instead of reading what the return oil temp is. I don't feel that's a good way to read it, i want to know what temp the oil is coming OUT of the engine so the return oil temp is what I'm looking for.
And to address the comments of it sitting in the pan for a long time I'm going to have to disagree. I've not done the calculations as to how much the 36mm pump actually moves at what rpm but I dare say the oil isn't sitting in the pan for very long at all. So you are really reading what the oil temp the is after it is returned to the pan from the internals.
SO, tapping into the pan seems to be the best option... yeah?
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The picture of the two senders that you have on the previous page, they both look like the one on the right. I dropped the pan and welded a bung to screw in the sender. For the coolant, there's a fitting that the upper rad hose attaches to on the block. That way it reads the coolant out of the head toward the rad. I got it of a VW gasser at the junk yard.
-JB
any pics of that flange?
so sender for oil in the pan is good right? :lol:
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I'd like a pic too.
Yeah does sound like the best place [oil pan] :)
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Oil pan is where I'll be putting mine.
I think what it comes down to I think is basic monitoring.
As in, if you have it on the filter flange and it runs a constant 240 then one day you see ti running at 310 chances are something is a mis.
Basically you will have a baseline to run off regardless of where it's mounted and if it vary's much from that then you may have a problem somewhere.
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Anyone know what that one sensor in pic #3 is for? It unscrews and looks exactly like the other oil pressure ones.
That sensor is tied to the A/C to shut off power to the compressor if the water temp gets too high. On my '91, the sensor is held in place with a clip. Non A/C equipped cars just have a blanking cap held in place with the clip.
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Ahhhhhhhhh
thank you kind sir!
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I just realized you were saying that yours is threaded in... I would expect that it serves the same function, just different sensor mounting method?
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Man! It's really cold on the ground out here trying to take these pics! :shock:
(http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/AudiVWguy/IMG_1688.jpg)
(http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/AudiVWguy/IMG_1689.jpg)
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oh wow.
I don't have a T off my head like yours there.
Or the skills/tools to do an oil pan mount like that.
Definately a bookmark now though. thanks for taking those.
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http://www.hella.com/produktion/HellaUSA/WebSite/MiscContent/Download/AutoIndustry/Electronics/TI_Oelsensorik_GB_TT_05.pdf
Come up with a way to read the data off one of these and you can check oil level, oil condition and temperature all from your dash.
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It's easy enough to unscrew it and put a plug in, what do you suggest?
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There is a picture below your post on pg 1, Is the location you are suggesting the place with the black circle around it?
-JB
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A special feature of Hella’s ultrasonic sensor is measurement beyond the actual
sensor housing. This enables filling levels of up to 150 mm to be measured. Excess
filling detection can also be realized. This is the end of the oil dipstick as we know
it, with the oil level now being displayed on the dashboard as the driver requires.
hmmmmmm i'm very interested... must cost a lot though!! $$$$
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A special feature of Hella’s ultrasonic sensor is measurement beyond the actual
sensor housing. This enables filling levels of up to 150 mm to be measured. Excess
filling detection can also be realized. This is the end of the oil dipstick as we know
it, with the oil level now being displayed on the dashboard as the driver requires.
hmmmmmm i'm very interested... must cost a lot though!! $$$$
Sounds less reliable than a dipstick, though.
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Okie Dokie so i have one concern with doing that...
Pictures are a thousand words.
Sender goes here
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f279/edmcclung/SSPX0271.jpg)
But look at the sizes...
on the left, the stock one, on the right, the one for my gauge.
I realize i can just use the stock one for both (i've already spliced the lines together sort of speak, so i'm not deleting a good warning from the dash.)
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f279/edmcclung/SSPX0270.jpg)
Will that longer one be blocking anything in there?
It threads all the way into it ok.
:idea: If you need to use that sender then why not find a little piece of tubing, and thread it so that it raises the sensor to the required insertion depth. Easily done with an M10 x 1 tap and die set... Might need to enlarge hole to M11, or M12 though :idea:
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Good idea! Must find piece of tube tho
and tap and die set...
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Cool Beans!! (do people still say that?) 8)
Thanks Andrew, your the man! (oh, jeez, I need to shut up and go to bed)