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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: yoopercharged on November 07, 2008, 04:35:12 pm
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I'm having no start issues with my injection pump (86 VW Jetta 1.6 TD) . I resealed it (Viton kit) and installed new feed pump, rotor, and cam plate (1.9 TD) from Prothe. When cranking, I am only getting fuel out of the bottom two rotor output ports. I have double checked that the accelerator lever is actuating the fuel metering control rod plunger. The metering rod is turning with the main shaft. The cam plate pin is in line with the keyways on the main shaft. I have pulled the spring and plunger off the cut off solenoid to eliminate that source. I have turned the volume screw and all I can do is vary the output of the bottom 2 from a straight stream to big drips. Any idea of what could be wrong? :cry:
ps I will be out of town until Mon Nov 17th.
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have you filled the pump with diesel/oil to prime it??? if not it will take forever...
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Absolutely. I primed it via a mity vac pump on the outlet port (fuel return). When I opened the top to double check everything it had plenty of fuel in it. It seems odd that I only get fuel coming out of the bottom two rotor outlet ports (to the injector lines). I'm quite sure that the outlet ports are assembled correctly but I will double check those next Mon the 17th when I return. The rotor was a Chinese one from Prothe. I've never heard of a bad Chinese part, but it could happen. Other than that I'm pretty stumped.
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I have an electric primer pump before my filter. I noticed it was great about filling the clear supply lines, filter, and IP, and return lines, but would not fill the high pressure lines. I had to do it the old school way and crack the line nuts at the injectors and crank the engine until they were spouting fuel. The #2 & #3 were first. I have not yet cranked until #1 & #4 are primed.
So, are you sure your vac pump is simply only priming the IP and the return lines? Its so easy to crack the injector line nuts and see.
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Did you put the control collar on the correct direction? Little hole faces the front of the pump/ away from the pump head.
It wont build pressure if this is on backwards I don't believe.
If that's on correctly then I would just crack the lines and crank crank crank.
Turn the max fuel screw in a long ways, like WAY past where you think it should be then crank it over. Once fuel starts to come out the lines even just a little back the max fuel screw out so it doesn't run away when it starts.
I'm rereading your post and you mention fuel is only coming out the bottom 2 ports, this tells me maybe you don't have the lines on? if you don't have your lines on the car you need to while bleeding. It wont prime with out the hard lines on the car.
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I originally primed via the vac pump with the injector lines installed and tightened on both ends. I cracked the injector lines at the injectors to see if any fuel was coming out and I only saw that two were wet. I then removed the lines from the IP to see what was happening there. Only the bottom two would pump out any fuel. I'm pretty sure that I put the control collar in the right direction, but it is possible.
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Well you can pull the top off on the car and look in there to see if it's correct. If not you already know what needs to be done :(
At least you can eliminate the collar.
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I've found a problem and fixed it. I goofed up and put two shims on each of the upper outlet ports on the rotor. Now I get fuel out of all 4 ports. I hooked up the injector lines and cracked them open at the injectors. Getting fuel at each injector union. Still no start. I tried to pull start it tonight and still no go. I did not see or smell raw fuel out of the exhaust. I could not tell when I was pull starting, if there was diesel coming out the exhaust. (it was dark out). Any ideas? I plan on checking the timing again. Other than that, I'm running out of ideas.
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Where did you get the extra 2 shims from?
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Shims-r-us of course. I got them from another injection pump because I thought I had lost them while cleaning.
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You lined the dot on the cam up with the keyway in the pump shaft?
You made sure that little 2mm shim was in between the rotor and cam?
You are sure the control collar is on correctly?
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You lined the dot on the cam up with the keyway in the pump shaft? YES
You made sure that little 2mm shim was in between the rotor and cam? YES
You are sure the control collar is on correctly?
would I still get fuel out if this was on incorrectly. I haven't removed the IP to go into it again. Pete at emiata mentioned removing the throttle arm to make sure the gov shaft was in the correct location.
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The throttle arm could be part of it but if that was the case you could hold it wide open and get fuel unless it off like a half a turn.
Yes it you left out the 2mm shim, didn't line up the dot on the cam or put the control collar on incorrectly it would still pump fuel, just not enough or at the correct time.
I think you can check the collar and the cam position by just taking the top off the pump which you can do on the car.
You cant get to the shim without removing the pump head to see if it's there damit anyway.
As easy as it is to remove the top I would just do it to verify that collar is correct. Otherwise your just gonna be scratching your head wondering.
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I know the shim is there because I forgot it but realized it was out before I got too far along the rebuild. The hole in the control collar is facing the front (drive sprocket) of the pump. No luck with the cam position. I'm unable to tell, but I remember well double checking that the pin is lined up with the key way in the shaft. I've been doing a lot of head scratching. This is making me bonkers. The gov/throttle shaft is leaking a little. I've had one ordered from prothe, but his stuff seems to take a while to get here.
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Hi Andy
let me ask a question first
which rotor did you use? 9,10,11 or 12 mm i assume you're talking
about he "Head & Rotor" right?
if you use the 1.9L cam plate then you need to take the higher lift
of that camplate into the equation of rotor position in the head.
this means the 2mm button might need changing to a different
thickness.
hope this helps.
try putting the 1.6L cam plate back in.
Did you assemble the Liner the correct way? the 3 holes in the
correct orientation?
Giles
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Hi Giles
I used the 9mm Chinese :x rotor from Prothe. What Liner are you referring to?
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Hi Giles
I used the 9mm Chinese :x rotor from Prothe. What Liner are you referring to?
I hope that you didn't mismatch your head and rotors?
why would you pull your Bosch 9mm and install a chinese 9mm?
these pieces are matched together you cannot swap them.
the Liner is the transfer pump outer ring
it has 3 holes in it
the middle hole faces the governor cover and the other two holes
have different spacing to the inner surface.
looking from the drive end of the pump the hole with the larger
distance from the inner liner surface is on the right side of the drive
shaft.
Giles
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The head, rotor and control collar were replaced as a unit. I used them because I did not know they were Chinese. (Any where to get good parts?) I replaced them because I wanted to do the job right the first time. (It's a fault of mine; I tried anyways). I assembled the liner per Andrew Libby's post. http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6694. I have been unable to get diesel to pump through the pump. I pump it through with a mity vac pump on the output port. I haven't seen any fuel in the return to tank line yet, if that is any help.
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I just redid a pump the other day. I tried to simply reseal it. Everything went fine until I had to replace the green o-ring on the distribution head. I did it carefully, but even so, the cam-rollers slipped out of place. After I finished the whole reseal, I tried to spin the pump over by hand (with the sprocket on there), and it wouldn't turn over. I ended up pulling the whole thing apart to reveal that in fact, the rollers had slipped out of place.
I reaseembled following the images on vwdieselparts.com forum. They're good to a point. It turns out, I put the control collar on backwards, and had indexed the cam-plate 180 out in relation to the input shaft (double whammy). In the end, I gave up for a week, and then returned to it with fresh eyes. Here are some observations on that fiasco.
With the cam plate 180 degrees out from the input shaft, and the control collar on backwards:
1) The pump would pump just fine. Although I didn't have a clear line on the return hose, I could see fuel being sucked thru the intake hose
2) There was practically no juice coming out of the delivery valves. It almost seemed like the pump kept building pressure, but was blowing it out of the lower seals and thru the return hose (I ended up replacing the lower seals out of fear afterwards). NO start
3) So, the vanes were working fine, but the fuel was not being delivered properly. The cam plate being out probably did not affect anything so long as I knew it was out, all I had to do was set the IP sprocket 180 degrees out (easy to do on a Rabbit, not so easy on later models).
While I'm no expert, by any stretch, I'd heed the advice of Giles, Zukgod, and Libbybapa. Take it apart again, clean everything, make sure the springs are in their correct place, make sure the came-plate is indexed properly, and make sure the control collar is facing the right way. As shiity as the Chinese parts are, I highly doubt that they'd prevent your car/pump from working. Their failure is longevity. While I have no personal experience in the matter, I've heard enough sucess stories (short term) using them to suspect that they work, although the quality is a bit inferior.
I did a bench test (a heavy-duty electric drill coupled to the 19mm nut on the injection pump, after the sprocket had been installed). Fill the pump, put a leader to a CLEAN bottle of diesel fuel, and feed the return lines back to the same bottle. Spin the pump over with the drill, and you should see spritzes of fuel coming out of the delivery valves (you might have to hang a piece of paper in front of the valves to see it). In order to get the fuel flowing, you may need to actuate the governor a bit. If everything 's in order, you should see fuel coming out.
The only thing I can think of is:
1) Vanes are stuck. They're not pumping enough volume/creating enough pressure. Was the car running before on this pump?
2) Too complicated for my feeble mind: refer to higher powers like Giles etc.
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Giles,
The pump is off right now and I plan on going through it tonight. Would you recommend going back to the 1.6 cam plate and the dist head and rotor? I replaced the feed pump as well. The cam plate looks to be oriented properly. THANKS
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I like Giles idea of reinstalling the 1.6 cam.
The 1.9 cam requires different return springs. If you are using the original 1.6 springs it will be damn hard to get it to run at all, don't ask how I know.
I have the Bosch part# at home for the springs needed in conjunction with the 1.9 cam.
I'll bet Giles would sell you a set though.
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Interesting info about the 1.9 cam. It's too bad Prothe doesn't tell you that info when he sells you a cam. I'm still waiting on a couple gov/throttle arm shaft bushings that I ordered from him a month ago. Someone forgot to send them, I guess. They also forgot to send the glow plugs when I ordered the IP parts. Not too impressed with that place. Any one used those VSP glow plugs he sells? I have four on my counter that I am afraid to use. Anyways, I took the pump apart and found that everything was as it should have been inside. I reinstalled the 1.6 camplate and the original head and rotor. It runs now. Woo hoo!! Any good place to get QUALITY IP parts from in the future?