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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Jet A on October 30, 2008, 09:56:32 am
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In my quest to figure out why i am gettting oil out the dipstick tube, i have a couple of questions.
1. How are hydrualic cams adjusted? is it possible for a rebuild head to me so out of wack i am pressursing my block something fierece?
2. is the crankcase vented through the valve cover?
3. How else am i getting this much pressure in the oil?
4. when is the most pressure created in the crankcase? idle or high rpm (with boost)
I installed my aftermarket turbo. it is being drained via a bung welded high on the oil pan. i am getting enough pressure through the crank to push oil back up that line and out the turbine side of the turbo.
Could i have installed the rings inccorectly? would that cause this much bottom end pressure? (the gaps are not lined up)
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In my quest to figure out why i am gettting oil out the dipstick tube, i have a couple of questions.
1. How are hydrualic cams adjusted? is it possible for a rebuild head to me so out of wack i am pressursing my block something fierece?
2. is the crankcase vented through the valve cover?
3. How else am i getting this much pressure in the oil?
4. when is the most pressure created in the crankcase? idle or high rpm (with boost)
I installed my aftermarket turbo. it is being drained via a bung welded high on the oil pan. i am getting enough pressure through the crank to push oil back up that line and out the turbine side of the turbo.
Could i have installed the rings inccorectly? would that cause this much bottom end pressure? (the gaps are not lined up)
1. Hyd cams are adjusted by oil pressure in the lifter. There is a chamber that fills with oil in the lifter.
2. Yes
3. Compression is blowing past the rings, that's the only way to pressurize the crankcase.
4. Hard to say, At higher RPM the rings are loaded more but there is more pressure in the chamber. Same as with boost. There has to be more blowing past under boost. However when I had problems I REALLY noticed it at idle.
Yes you could have installed them incorrectly. Or broke one or more while installing.
I believe the rings are suppose to be install as, oil ring lower @ 7 upper@ 5, second compression ring @ 10 and top ring @ 2.
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Long shot, are you sure you didn't plumb turbo charged air to the crank case / valve cover ? What is your intake manifold showing for boost pressure ? Is your blow off valve plumbed to the crank case / valve cover ? Maybe the valve is weak or bad is so.
You can easily check your rings this way: Remove the oil filler cap. Rev the engine to a couple 2k rpm's - if the rings are bad, you'll get a ton of smoke pouring out the filler hole - that is assuming nothing is wrong with what I have asked about above.
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A failed/defective turbo will sometimes allow boost pressure to leak past the compressor side shaft seal and into the cartridge, therefore pressurizing the crankcase. Check the turbo shaft for excessive radial or any axial play. You can always isolate the turbo by disconnecting the drain line and letting it drain into a pail. Run the engine to see if the blowby changes. Obviously don't run the engine for too long.
If its not the turbo, the problem has to be either with the rings or valve guides.
Of course also check the crankcase ventilation system for kinks/restrictions...that would also explain the oil out the dipstick tube/turbo.
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all excellent points. Turbo did not have excess shaft play when i checked it. will check again. Turbo is plumbed dirrectly from outlet of turbo to inlet of intake. valve cover tube port is open to atmosphere. I will check the smoke thing. Could my rings just not be seated causing all of these? this does seem excessive.
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How many miles on the rings?
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How many miles on the rings?
4-6 miles...its freshly rebuilt. cant drive it cause i blowing oil out of every orfice....
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Could my rings just not be seated causing all of these? this does seem excessive.
No, not enough to cause your dip stick to spout oil. New rings, if not damaged have more blow-by, but not excessive. New engines from most OEM's now have the rings already seated (production quality is that good now) and they fill the crank with full synthetic oil to get better CAFE numbers out the gate.
Did you open your oil fill cap and rev the engine ?
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Damnit!
It really sounds like a ring problem.
Maybe one or more are stuck to the piston?
Probably not but damn man you shouldnt be blowing oil like that.
I'm sorry but it really sounds like you need to tear it down :(
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Whats comming out of the valve cover tube? I assume thats blowing oil too.
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Whats comming out of the valve cover tube? I assume thats blowing oil too.
air, there was some blue smoke for the first two min, now at every startup its just air. i have the oil baffle installed over the cam. little bit of oil at higher rpms but more of a mist.
As a side not, i do have a converted hydrualic head for a solid block. I dont hear any lifter tick, so i am asssuming all of that is working correctly.
My oil bung is located below the oil level. i need to investigate this a partial problem before the head but after that maybe i will pull the head, and pull out each piston, see if i cant find something, and then install another set of rings? i dont know what else to do?
I dont know if the head was pressure checked or not at rebuild i bought the head off ebay, from a pretty reliable fellow. Head looks like it was done right. correct valve seals, and bronse guides. head was decked and valves were new. Cant imagine the head issues to cause this. But i dont know where else to look.
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the only thing i can think of that hasnt direcly been mentioned, is installing th compression rings upside-down... i'm sure you know they have a chamfer and a particular orientation.
i hope you find something!
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I can't remember if we've asked what your ring end gaps were at?
Did you check them?
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I can't remember if we've asked what your ring end gaps were at?
Did you check them?
Yes, ring gaps were checked. also how i check the bore taper.
Orientation was noted on the compression ring. I believe they were also marked "up".
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i have this same problem!! :(
new rings, just 100km and oil spitting out the dipstick!!
the block was stil within spec, i used std Kolbenschmidt rings, new valve guides. i don't know what to do.
:cry:
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Damn that 3 people so far in what a week?
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Can one or two bad lifters cause this problem?
because i do have at least one very bad lifter. the engine is very noisy, clacking noise and shaking like crazy.
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The only thing I can suggest at this point Jet A is a tear down.
I REALLY hope someone will come up with something before you actually tear it down though.
I'm thinking a broken ring (rings) maybe. Aside from that I don't know. I've never had that problem not even when my engine was fubar.
On mine the second compression ring was stuck to the piston on #1, #2 and #4. The only reason it wasn't stuck on #3 was due to a broken ring land. The blowby was so bad there was smoke coming out the vent tube I had dangling Under the car so bad people would point at it to let me know there was smoke coming out the bottom.
Also on ALL of the second rings the end gap was WAY out of spec. Like 1/8" vs the what .020 max spec.
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I wish Bentley or anybody had a pic of the washers and seals for the dipstick!
I wanna see what they really look like??
mine never had them..
I kinda think mine is leaking because the stick was not installed correctly??
some time the small flare/bubble goes way down in the block and then other times it wont go down past the opening...this dipstick issue is driving me CRAZY!!! when I searched here I found like 6-7 threads with guys having the same issue...seems to be pretty common...but whats the fix??? :(
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I installed my aftermarket turbo. it is being drained via a bung welded high on the oil pan. i am getting enough pressure through the crank to push oil back up that line and out the turbine side of the turbo.
How is this possible?
You should have much higher oil pressure than case pressure which would force the oil into the oil pan, unless it forces it through the turbo seals instead, also case pressure that high should blow the seals out.
Maybe the head gasket is messed up causing a compression to leak into the oil return port.
The breather hose isn't hooked into the intake mani?
What's coming out the exhaust?
As far as I know there's no way to get that high of case pressure w/o something else being wrong. Like the breather hose being clogged, but you already said just air is coming out it. I really hope yo can get it fixed easy.
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I agree with rabbitman, I must have missed that earlier post.
If oil is leaking into your compressor side or turbine side it's likely from bad seals nit crankcase pressure.
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My oil bung is located below the oil level. i need to investigate this a partial problem before the head but after that maybe i will pull the head, and pull out each piston, see if i cant find something, and then install another set of rings? i dont know what else to do?
The return Bung for the turbo in the pan? It should be draining into the pan above oil level. Should also be a large tube, Should be made out of SS (I've seen rubber ones melt...)
What was break-in procedure? Normal break-in is Using Rotella-t 30wt. oil. Start it in Neutral, bring it up to around 3k rpms, let it wind out for 15 mins. This prevents the cam from wiping. Using Rotella is recommended, as it has a high zinc content (lacking in all modern oil) A few hours of freeway driving will conclude break in. Drain oil, replace with fresh. Change 1k from that also.
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My oil bung is located below the oil level. i need to investigate this a partial problem before the head but after that maybe i will pull the head, and pull out each piston, see if i cant find something, and then install another set of rings? i dont know what else to do?
The return Bung for the turbo in the pan? It should be draining into the pan above oil level. Should also be a large tube, Should be made out of SS (I've seen rubber ones melt...)
What was break-in procedure? Normal break-in is Using Rotella-t 30wt. oil. Start it in Neutral, bring it up to around 3k rpms, let it wind out for 15 mins. This prevents the cam from wiping. Using Rotella is recommended, as it has a high zinc content (lacking in all modern oil) A few hours of freeway driving will conclude break in. Drain oil, replace with fresh. Change 1k from that also.
Oil bung should be above oil level correct. i must have miss measure or not takin engine angle into accoutn when i welded the bung. Bung is made from 1/2npt ss half coupler. standoff on turbo is 1/2" so i should be good to go there.
I cant break in due to loosing oil.
cam is not new so it doesnt need to be broke in.
Rabbit man, it does not take much oil backpressure on the the turbo seal to leak. I would aggree that the pressure should push into the pan, my concern is i am getting either a backup of pressure, or my oil is being pushed up to the turbo. which would cause said backpressure in turbo, which would cause the turbo to leak.
I am just not sure which is coming first, the chicken or the egg. maybe i have to much flow restriction, or maybe the bung being below the pan, or maybe i have blow by. i deff have some things to try before pulling the head. I would say that most likely i do not have a broken, or miss installed rings, but as mentioned it is a possiblity.
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take the turbo off and run it with out the turbo, to see if it still leaks with the turbo out of the picture??
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My oil bung is located below the oil level. i need to investigate this a partial problem before the head but after that maybe i will pull the head, and pull out each piston, see if i cant find something, and then install another set of rings? i dont know what else to do?
The return Bung for the turbo in the pan? It should be draining into the pan above oil level. Should also be a large tube, Should be made out of SS (I've seen rubber ones melt...)
What was break-in procedure? Normal break-in is Using Rotella-t 30wt. oil. Start it in Neutral, bring it up to around 3k rpms, let it wind out for 15 mins. This prevents the cam from wiping. Using Rotella is recommended, as it has a high zinc content (lacking in all modern oil) A few hours of freeway driving will conclude break in. Drain oil, replace with fresh. Change 1k from that also.
Definitely need drain bung above oil in pan. High pressure oil enters turbo from oil pump, and then relies on being able to fall into the large drain pipe. Sump pressure does not prevent the oil from falling, but if sump oil is above the bung then it will push up drain, and meet high pressure oil at the bearings. oil will then take the easier route out ie into intake or exhaust pipes.
Did the high pressure oil occur right from the start? Or maybe after a mile or so... Enough time to break a ring perhaps. Normally dip stick [on a Quantum at least] is a slopppy fit, yet doesn't leak oil; even with some blowby.
Is it happening because oil level is too high, and reaching the dipstick sheath?
Do you have a compression tester?
Hydraulic lifters can be duff from day one. Usually lazy, so they fail to lift the valve.
I don't understand why a faulty valve opening creates clack. Noise most likely injector issue. Try retarding pump a few pencil lines. What is the timing setting for a 1.9?
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when you installed the rings, did you align them 180 degrees from one-another?
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seems like a moving target... new symptoms keep appearing. BOL
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You guys are scaring me. I am all ready to build and spending tons and if I have these problems I am going to scream...please figure it out before I get my engine back and installed.
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You guys are scaring me. I am all ready to build and spending tons and if I have these problems I am going to scream...please figure it out before I get my engine back and installed.
tell me about it!!! we all spent way to much on our fresh builds!! :(
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maybe i missed it, but has a compression test been recently performed?
I had similar symptoms on my newer just installed ( not rebuilt ) engine.
compression was off on one cyl. he hoped that it was a stuck ring and would sort itself out. it didnt, tear down revealed a broken ring.
rebuild to begin shortly.
v
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Maybe try a leakdown test then you'd hear how much air was getting away and were it is coming from.
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Definitely need drain bung above oil in pan. High pressure oil enters turbo from oil pump, and then relies on being able to fall into the large drain pipe. Sump pressure does not prevent the oil from falling, but if sump oil is above the bung then it will push up drain, and meet high pressure oil at the bearings. oil will then take the easier route out ie into intake or exhaust pipes.
Did the high pressure oil occur right from the start? Or maybe after a mile or so... Enough time to break a ring perhaps. Normally dip stick [on a Quantum at least] is a slopppy fit, yet doesn't leak oil; even with some blowby.
Is it happening because oil level is too high, and reaching the dipstick sheath?
Do you have a compression tester?
Hydraulic lifters can be duff from day one. Usually lazy, so they fail to lift the valve.
I don't understand why a faulty valve opening creates clack. Noise most likely injector issue. Try retarding pump a few pencil lines. What is the timing setting for a 1.9?
Good point.
It occurs about 5-10sec after start up. oil level is perfect.
Oil was coming out of the dipstick hole at the block like a foutain. Was deffinatly under pressure.
I am going to try to lower the oil level below the bung...(about 1qt) and see if this stops.
ACTUALLY...now that i am thinking about it when i was runing with the turbo off, to get injectors set and stuff, it was not leaking oil.....at all. but i never drove it. my oil problems came after the turbo.
I will see if i cant weld a bung into an old injector body and make a compression tester tonight. should have some results by tommorow. this whole time change thing is really messing with my schedule and cant seem to find time to work on it.
Stop talking about rings damnit! Ur making me more nervous about the whole thing. Tell me its a muffler bearing and i should just drive it.
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Definitely need drain bung above oil in pan. High pressure oil enters turbo from oil pump, and then relies on being able to fall into the large drain pipe. Sump pressure does not prevent the oil from falling, but if sump oil is above the bung then it will push up drain, and meet high pressure oil at the bearings. oil will then take the easier route out ie into intake or exhaust pipes.
Did the high pressure oil occur right from the start? Or maybe after a mile or so... Enough time to break a ring perhaps. Normally dip stick [on a Quantum at least] is a slopppy fit, yet doesn't leak oil; even with some blowby.
Is it happening because oil level is too high, and reaching the dipstick sheath?
Do you have a compression tester?
Hydraulic lifters can be duff from day one. Usually lazy, so they fail to lift the valve.
I don't understand why a faulty valve opening creates clack. Noise most likely injector issue. Try retarding pump a few pencil lines. What is the timing setting for a 1.9?
Good point.
It occurs about 5-10sec after start up. oil level is perfect.
Oil was coming out of the dipstick hole at the block like a foutain. Was deffinatly under pressure.
I am going to try to lower the oil level below the bung...(about 1qt) and see if this stops.
ACTUALLY...now that i am thinking about it when i was runing with the turbo off, to get injectors set and stuff, it was not leaking oil.....at all. but i never drove it. my oil problems came after the turbo.
I will see if i cant weld a bung into an old injector body and make a compression tester tonight. should have some results by tommorow. this whole time change thing is really messing with my schedule and cant seem to find time to work on it.
Stop talking about rings damnit! Ur making me more nervous about the whole thing. Tell me its a muffler bearing and i should just drive it.
Make sure your adaptor is well and truely stuffed, else you'll get readings like I did last week of 160psi. :roll: