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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: vwt4 on October 08, 2008, 03:27:25 pm
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ok guys, this is slightly premature seeing as I have another thread going regarding fixing my T4!!!
but I am collecting parts for when shes back to full health and this is what I need some advice on please :wink:
I have read some 1.9TD tuning threads and will be doing the basic things such as:
EGR removal
Increase fuelling
Boost gauge
Well plumbed in intercooler
Turn the boost up a little!
But my aspirations go further than the little pewee turbo on my ABL engine code 1.9TD can take me :lol:
I would like some advice on what hybrid turbo would be suitable and also....if I do the 1.6 pump top modification (so that it adds fuel on boost iirc) will this be sufficient for running a bigger turbo and maybe 18psi for example?
I am not used to not having an ECU to deal with! and am keen to know if the fuel increase will be linear with the increased boost from a new turbo?
Will I need to fit a metal headgasket to safely run this level of boost? or even 15psi from a hybrid such as one I have been offered from a volvo T5? If so who sells metal headgaskets for the ABl engine please?
Thanks and sorry for the butt load of questions... if anyone can link me to threads on hybrid turbos for similar engine it would be appreciated
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Can anyone give me some links or point me in the direction of where I can get some info please?
Anyone know a source for a metal or multi layer HG for an ABl engine?
Do you have to lower the compression on diesels when running higher boost as on petrols?
Or is detonation not an issue?
Thanks
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Someone will reply, it can take a few days some times.
No detonation problem on diesels just blown head gaskets and bent rods.
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the metal head gasket comes standard with the 1.9L
detonation is not an issue with a diesel by running high boost. it could however be an issue if you had the timing too advanced, but even then it's pretty hard, as i've heard of some motors running with 2mm of advancement. (but sound VERY loud :lol:)
what you should try is running with the wastegate disabled, and turning up the fuel with 1/4 turns (remember how many turns) and get to a point where it doesn't smoke, and live with it. intercooling will help reduce the smoke as well.
look in the FAQ for the DIY on how to make your car faster for info on how to turn up the pump.
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the metal head gasket comes standard with the 1.9L
detonation is not an issue with a diesel by running high boost. it could however be an issue if you had the timing too advanced, but even then it's pretty hard, as i've heard of some motors running with 2mm of advancement. (but sound VERY loud :lol:)
what you should try is running with the wastegate disabled, and turning up the fuel with 1/4 turns (remember how many turns) and get to a point where it doesn't smoke, and live with it. intercooling will help reduce the smoke as well.
look in the FAQ for the DIY on how to make your car faster for info on how to turn up the pump.
Thanks :D
but I am wanting to upgrade to a hybrid turbo as the peewee the T4 comes with as stock is nothing short of weedy :lol:
Im not wanting to go for huge power outputs of course...or I wouldnt be tuning a 1.9TD!! but I would like some more ooomph... Even if I can get it to 130 bhp I would be more than happy.
Can anyone clarify if I do the pump top mod so that fuel is added when more boost is present.
Will I be able to run a unit off say a Volvo T5 with an adapter for the manifold?
I have an intercooler in the pipeline (no pun intended) and am going to
fit a boost gauge Ive just ordered as soon as it arrives. But now the engine is running sweetly since my recent problems *8see other thread*) and has had a major service and everything near enough replaced. So I want to test it out a bit.
I have a TDi lump from a golf mk4 lined up for the future possibly and as a spare engine.
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Sure you can modify the ramp in the LDA do deliver more fuel then you can grind the foot a bit as well under the LDA for more travel.
Griding the pin is the best way to get more fuel under boost..
Just keep the exhaust housing no bigger than .48 and it will still be drivable. Beyond that it spools really slow.
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Sure you can modify the ramp in the LDA do deliver more fuel then you can grind the foot a bit as well under the LDA for more travel.
Griding the pin is the best way to get more fuel under boost..
Just keep the exhaust housing no bigger than .48 and it will still be drivable. Beyond that it spools really slow.
Thanks zukgod.
ok, so max .48 before I turn it into a lagmachine :?
Hmmm. never knew about grinding the pin....Im assuming I need to get a new pin first and then grind that? (off the top of of a 1.6 pump iirc)
Sorry to sound a bit newbish...(but I am to dervs) but whats the LDA...and have you any ideas where I can get info on my ABL pump or a specific breakdown diagram?
Im guessing I would need to acquire the Bosch CDs or maybe they are online?
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If you are running the 1.9idi, you can just switch over to an old reliable t3 or k24 from the 1.6td. It was oversized for that application(1.6), but will give you substantialy more boost than the stock 1.9 turbo. It is robost and can handle 15-20psi no problem, for many miles.
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If you are running the 1.9idi, you can just switch over to an old reliable t3 or k24 from the 1.6td.
+1
Another vote for the T3 or K24 turbo from the 1.6 TD engine.
This is what I'm running in my AAZ-powered T3 van, a Garrett T3 turbo from a 1.6-TD-engined VW car. I believe the A/R is 0.36.
I ran a different T3 turbo with an A/R of 0.48 for a while, but the lag was terrible. I'm happy with the 0.36.
If you go this way, you will need the exhaust manifold from the 1.6 TD engine, too. The one you have now probably only accomodates the tiny K03 (or similar) that you have on there now.
You probably have a pretty tight engine bay in the T4 van. It could be tricky to play with different turbos.
Good luck, anyway.
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If you are running the 1.9idi, you can just switch over to an old reliable t3 or k24 from the 1.6td. It was oversized for that application(1.6), but will give you substantialy more boost than the stock 1.9 turbo. It is robost and can handle 15-20psi no problem, for many miles.
Thanks subsonic
is the t3 or K24 from a 1.6 td really going to have much more ooomph (push more air basically) than one off a 1.9?? Is it really oversized or something? and what years(ish) cars am I looking for?
Does anyone know what the AR is on my current peewee garrett T15 (which is my current turbo)
Would a turbo off say an Audi S2 or S4
like this http://cgi.ebay.de/Audi-S2-s4-Turbolader-K24-Turbo_W0QQitemZ350107068339QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item350107068339&_trkparms=72%3A1280%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ebayphotohosting
be way too big and create a lagmonster?
otis2 - Thanks for the input :)
Youd be surprised with the T4s engine bay....there loads of room relatively speaking and compared to some other cars Ive owned! bigger turbo wont be a problem fitment wise....and nor will a decent sized intercooler which I will do at the same time.
To clarify - if I fit the 1.6 style boost pin so I get more fuel under boost, and add a T3 or K24 (or bigger) will I be able to run say 18psi relatively safely? Am I missing anything!!!!
(lets forget clutch and transmission for now as the clutch is good and the tranny is also in good order)
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Well cant tell from the pic but it looks like a gasser turbo, historically gasser turbos are lag pigs, our little engines require a much smaller exhaust housing to get the turbo moving.
Look at it like this, gassers run up to 8000 rpm, the turbo is designed to start spooling around say 3500-4000 rpm.
Toss that same turbo on our much smaller engines then turn those smaller engines a max of 4000 rpm. Make a huge difference.
I'm not saying you cant use it just plan on it being laggy OR toss ass loads of fuel at it to get it spool.. :twisted:
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Well cant tell from the pic but it looks like a gasser turbo, historically gasser turbos are lag pigs, our little engines require a much smaller exhaust housing to get the turbo moving.
Look at it like this, gassers run up to 8000 rpm, the turbo is designed to start spooling around say 3500-4000 rpm.
Toss that same turbo on our much smaller engines then turn those smaller engines a max of 4000 rpm. Make a huge difference.
I'm not saying you cant use it just plan on it being laggy OR toss ass loads of fuel at it to get it spool.. :twisted:
Hmm, very good point zukgod!
I had never thought of it like that. It is a gasser turbo and your right, it spools at about 2k from a 2.2 low comp engine,
Surely the high compression (22:1 iirc) of my derv engine make some difference? How do those pulling tractors make so much power? lol
Although I realise they are bigger engines!!and run 50psi plus boost!
Is it better to go for small AR and high boost then? and a good IC to chill the intake air as much as poosible?
No one has answered me about the boost pin and fuelling yet though :cry:
Will chucking ass loads of fuel at a bigger AR turbo help the spool? why?!
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Will chucking ass loads of fuel at a bigger AR turbo help the spool? why?!
When the exhaust gasses leave the cylinder head to go out the exhaust, they are still expanding somewhat. Turbos work by converting some of this lost heat energy into mechanical energy. Dumping ass loads of fuel into the engine means there is more heat coming out of the motor. On diesels, generally more fuel = more boost. :twisted:
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Crap! Double post. :roll:
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Will chucking ass loads of fuel at a bigger AR turbo help the spool? why?!
When the exhaust gasses leave the cylinder head to go out the exhaust, they are still expanding somewhat. Turbos work by converting some of this lost heat energy into mechanical energy. Dumping ass loads of fuel into the engine means there is more heat coming out of the motor. On diesels, generally more fuel = more boost. :twisted:
Ahh! gotchya!
Cheers Cyrus
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Tractor pullers run over 200psi, plus lots of fuel and water/meth injection and much abuse to the clutches. :twisted:
I'd try a T3 if i was you. I love mine and my engine isn't 100% so i can only imagine a healthy 1.9.
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Dumping ass loads of fuel into the engine means there is more heat coming out of the motor. On diesels, generally more fuel = more boost. :twisted:
Indeed.
There are a number of us on this board that drive with our turbo's wastegates intentionally disconnected.
Peak turbo boost is governed by the position of the max fuel screw on the pump with the wastegate disconnected. That is, the turbo will spool up to whatever pressure the injection pump is dialled to support.
I had my max fuel screw set on the pump to allow 20 psi from the turbo at full throttle for a while, now I screwed it back to allow more like 16 - 17 psi at full throttle, and I'm happy.
With the max fuel screw turned up, I have to feather the throttle pedal a bit at low engine speed (before boost builds), otherwise I get a bit of black smoke at the tailpipe. But if I wait until the turbo spools up a bit, then I can slam the pedal and there's no smoke at all, just lots of boost pressure & power.
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Dumping ass loads of fuel into the engine means there is more heat coming out of the motor. On diesels, generally more fuel = more boost. :twisted:
Indeed.
There are a number of us on this board that drive with our turbo's wastegates intentionally disconnected.
Peak turbo boost is governed by the position of the max fuel screw on the pump with the wastegate disconnected. That is, the turbo will spool up to whatever pressure the injection pump is dialled to support.
I had my max fuel screw set on the pump to allow 20 psi from the turbo at full throttle for a while, now I screwed it back to allow more like 16 - 17 psi at full throttle, and I'm happy.
With the max fuel screw turned up, I have to feather the throttle pedal a bit at low engine speed (before boost builds), otherwise I get a bit of black smoke at the tailpipe. But if I wait until the turbo spools up a bit, then I can slam the pedal and there's no smoke at all, just lots of boost pressure & power.
Thanks for the info Otis :wink:
Can anyone please confirm a few things for me...
If I change the pump top to the 1.6 one, will this allow my pump to increase fuel to match increased boost?
I have been informed that the pump top on a standard ABL pump doesnt add more fuel with boost, but with the boost pin from a 1.6 the fuelling will be much better for higher boost?
Also, What injectors should I fit if I am aiming for 130-150hp using a hybrid turbo> and does anyone know if there are any good 'donor' injectors? (eg/ off another car that i can get from a breakers yard etc)
Thanks!
ps// Is my goal realistic? with the following
K14 turbo and manifold or adapter to suit
Intercooler and hard pipes
1.6 boost pin and fuelling screw dialled in to suit
EGT gauge - I already have fitted a boost gauge.
What am I missing or should I add/change?
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T4's aren't light.
I would do mods in this order..
EGT gauge.
Boost gauge.
EGR delete.
Find a pump top with a LDA as the ABL doesn't have one.
Fit oil cooler (heavy van, the engines don't last anyway in stock form, messing with one is only going to kill it sooner)
Fit intercooler.
Start messing with boost and fuel.
Don't just go straight for the fuel screw and turn the boost up or it will end in tears.
Simon.
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Don't just go straight for the fuel screw and turn the boost up or it will end in tears.
x100
EGT gauge.
Boost gauge.
EGR delete.
Find a pump top with a LDA as the ABL doesn't have one.
Fit oil cooler (heavy van, the engines don't last anyway in stock form, messing with one is only going to kill it sooner)
Fit intercooler.
Start messing with boost and fuel.
+1
That's a very good list IMO. add in bigger exhaust before messing with fuel is my advice. thats more of a heads up as more fuel will spike EGT's without an easier/faster way of getting the heck out of the head. Look into making a 3 inch downpipe too. there are some really nice ones on this forum. there are some recent ones actually so i don't even think you need to use the search.
Our IDI's don't need cats or mufflers ;)
maybe keep the cat in the basement for emissions control time :roll:
(someone may correct me, is it not a cat just a resonator?)
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Thanks Baxter
Thats a great list. If a little more costly than I was hoping!!
Still, I suppose it will be cheaper than doing it 'wrong' and blowing my engine up.
Smokey Eddy - thanks also re the DP and exhaust suggestions.
i will do this as well :D
Can anyone tell me where on earth I can get a 12mm Pump Top from?
I have been advised to get one by a T4 diesel tuning guru (his van is 380 hp and 1/4 mile in 14.6 secs!) but I cant find one for love nor money!!
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The ABL is basically a AAZ with some differences to make it suit in the T4's engine bay, the main ones being that the turbo is mounted at a different angle and therefore uses different manifolds and the pump has no LDA, other than that they are virtually identical in all respects. Anything you can do to an AAZ you can do to an ABL.
Id fit a LDA or complete pump straight off a AAZ engine first, then have a play with the boost and fueling.
The only problem you may have in fitting an LDA is that I think it would be VERY close and may foul the radiator. Im probably wrong, but it'd be would be worth taking some measurements before investing in a pump or LDA.
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The ABL is basically a AAZ with some differences to make it suit in the T4's engine bay, the main ones being that the turbo is mounted at a different angle and therefore uses different manifolds and the pump has no LDA, other than that they are virtually identical in all respects. Anything you can do to an AAZ you can do to an ABL.
Id fit a LDA or complete pump straight off a AAZ engine first, then have a play with the boost and fueling.
The only problem you may have in fitting an LDA is that I think it would be VERY close and may foul the radiator. Im probably wrong, but it'd be would be worth taking some measurements before investing in a pump or LDA.
Thats VERy useful information johnboy!!!
Thanks a lot mate :wink:
There is loads of room at the front of the T4 engine bay (between the pump and rad. Hopefully fit wont be a problem!)
Which is the easier job///?
The pump top swap or the whole pump? (not done one yet but Im brave and confident!!!)
Am I right in thinking 1.9TD passats, seats, golf mk3s.All apart from the ECO diesel, which apparently can be identified by the lack of LDA and small boost pipe from the inlet manifold to the LDA(top of the diesel pump). It does not increase fuel as the boost increases, it just uses the turbo boost to stop any smoke rather than to add power!!!
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You can get a 12mm head from a cummins pump.Or some tdi autos have an 11mm assembly,But id do some reseasrch.Id be ready to swao out other pump parts as well like the camplate and springs maybe delivery valves.Your also gonna have to tune it by ear as timing will be off.You can get a 10mm assembly from a peugoet td.
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Differences between ABL and AAZ that I am aware of...
ABL has an extra water outlet on the head, only small, it goes to the header tank.
ABL block isn't drilled for a dipstick tube.
At some point the valve stem size on the AAZ reduced from 8mm to 7mm, these apparently flow better.
I don't think this happened to the ABL and they all have 8mm valve stems.
Then, obviously the injection pump.
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Differences between ABL and AAZ that I am aware of...
ABL has an extra water outlet on the head, only small, it goes to the header tank.
ABL block isn't drilled for a dipstick tube.
At some point the valve stem size on the AAZ reduced from 8mm to 7mm, these apparently flow better.
I don't think this happened to the ABL and they all have 8mm valve stems.
Then, obviously the injection pump.
Thanks Baxter
which brings me to my next question....
Have you got any used AAZ pumps or pump tops in stock so to speak? :D
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Dunno about your T4, but I went to fit a boost controller to a mates T4 the other day and was dismayed when I looked under the bonnet and found a tiny turbo and a pump with no LDA.
I told him I could get more boost but there really was no point without boost enrichment.
I fitted it anyway and he got 15psi no bother - maybe more we didn't try as there just wasn't the fuel there.
Loads of room in a T4 bay????? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha maybe for turbo access but you try getting to the pump.
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Dunno about your T4, but I went to fit a boost controller to a mates T4 the other day and was dismayed when I looked under the bonnet and found a tiny turbo and a pump with no LDA.
I told him I could get more boost but there really was no point without boost enrichment.
I fitted it anyway and he got 15psi no bother - maybe more we didn't try as there just wasn't the fuel there.
Loads of room in a T4 bay????? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha maybe for turbo access but you try getting to the pump.
Agreed Reg
Theres sod all room for access to the pump :lol:
Good point. I was thinking more around the turbo and top of the engine!
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Johnboy, you have the exact same car as me in the same colour, with the exact same mods and the same planned mods.
Big up the UK crew on this thread.
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Good point. I was thinking more around the turbo and top of the engine!
No point even touching that turbo, it'll boost to 15 psi which is enough for a stock motor and should give you 120 brake easily......with the right pump.
Quite easy to lift the rad off on the T4, makes it much easier to work on, watch out for the power steering cooler...
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Don't just go straight for the fuel screw and turn the boost up or it will end in tears.
x100
EGT gauge.
Boost gauge.
EGR delete.
Find a pump top with a LDA as the ABL doesn't have one.
Fit oil cooler (heavy van, the engines don't last anyway in stock form, messing with one is only going to kill it sooner)
Fit intercooler.
Start messing with boost and fuel.
+1
That's a very good list IMO. add in bigger exhaust before messing with fuel is my advice. thats more of a heads up as more fuel will spike EGT's without an easier/faster way of getting the heck out of the head. Look into making a 3 inch downpipe too. there are some really nice ones on this forum. there are some recent ones actually so i don't even think you need to use the search.
Our IDI's don't need cats or mufflers ;)
maybe keep the cat in the basement for emissions control time :roll:
(someone may correct me, is it not a cat just a resonator?)
the cat is a catalytic converter, it contains precious metals like platinum, that can reach high temperatures, enough to reduce emissions such as NOx. newer diesels have them, but they're different animals than gasser cat's. a gasser cat wouldn't last long in a diesel... it would just clog right up :lol:
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About $120 will get you a low end 2-way diesel metallic cat. I was going to do this, but thought simplicity is best. That and I will not have any emission standards to meet.
http://www.discountconverter.com/diesel/index.cfm
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I have a pile of AAZ turbo's under the bench ready for e-bay when I get time for it.
I think i have 1x K03, 1xT3 (from a SB Passat) and a few T2's.
We don't need cats in the UK, fitted but not needed.
Rather pass them on on this forum that put them on e-bay, I just gave my friend a T3 for his M-tdi project, or was it a K24, can't remember now.
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We don't need cats in the UK, fitted but not needed.
Yes, your government wisely is not interested in the biggest transfer of wealth in history (from industrial nations to oil producing) - If ours didn't have some strange agenda, we could stop importing oil tomorrow if we all switched to diesels !! 40% less consumption w/o down sizing goes a long way. Now, imagine if we could get our hands on the 76 mpg diesel Fiesta Ford is selling at a profit to the rest of the world ? WOW !! Maybe we could export oil to China !!!
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Bear in mind that's "only" 63mpg in the US - still good tho :) In the UK I'd expect to get a bit less than that, in real life, but you might do better over there with the flat straight roads and all.
The VW Polo blue motion by the way is rated at 88mpg (73 US) on the open road. Nice :)
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I have a pile of AAZ turbo's under the bench ready for e-bay when I get time for it.
I think i have 1x K03, 1xT3 (from a SB Passat) and a few T2's.
We don't need cats in the UK, fitted but not needed.
Rather pass them on on this forum that put them on e-bay, I just gave my friend a T3 for his M-tdi project, or was it a K24, can't remember now.
do these turbo's bolt straight on to the AAZ engine or is there more work required to make tem fit?