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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: fdnyguy on October 07, 2008, 04:36:18 pm
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My VW has 221,000 miles (353600km's). My average mpg has dropped to about 40mpg, sometimes less. Did 32 mpg on 12.4 gallons, but I take into effect I was up and down the hills of NY and Pennsylvania.
I bought the car with 182,000 miles (291,200kms). Chances are the injectors were never replaced. I tend to think this may be a reason why I have a drop in mileage, but with the diesel wizards on here I thought I would throw it out (Besides, Tyler needs a break from all my PM'as. lol).
Even with this mileage, I burn very little oil (last 2 oil changes were synthetic), so I can ASSuME (lol) compression is ok for the most part. Even reading of other stories, even the head gasket seems ok so far.
With a stock 1.6 N/A, driving like Mario Andretti is out. And I try for the most part to keep it at 60-65 mph (96-104kmh).
Granted, beggars cant be choosers with 40 mpg. But driving like Grandma, I did get a high of 55 mpg, and averaged most of the time in the 45-47 mpg range.
If not the injectors, anything else? ULSD even?
The table is open to you guys. Thanks in advance.
Stay safe. Stay well.
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i would go with some of the more obvious stuff like air cleaner, fuel filter, etc... have you noticed a drop in power with the subsequent drop in fuel economy? do you need to rev the motor up more to make the same low end power you were making before?
maybe its just me, but right after changing the oil the car feels great!!! then once it gets really dirty i lose power... must be all those abbrasive soot particles :evil:
something that most people also overlook is bearings. a good thing to do is to clean out the rear bearings and pack in some good grease. you can get ones that reduce friction with some moly additive... good for maybe .2 or .5 mpg?? :lol: or more depending on how fast you drive.. front bearings aren't so simple and must be pressed in. brakes dragging will reduce mpg, bad tires... bad alignment... bad tie rods, ball joints, even suspension can affect (i had a golf with bad rear struts, and the rear would vibrate like hell going more than 80km/h!! :lol:) 40 psi in the tires helps, but IMO it can the tires down the wrong way unless they are designed for that much pressure. i think its called cupping.
now with all that being said, if the injectors have never been replaced, it's probably not a bad idea considering they don't last forever, and around 100'000 miles is a good timeframe to change nozzles.
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Well, as I recall, you didn't have an air conditioner that worked at first...then you got it repaired. Still running the air???
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i would go with some of the more obvious stuff like air cleaner, fuel filter, etc... have you noticed a drop in power with the subsequent drop in fuel economy? do you need to rev the motor up more to make the same low end power you were making before?
maybe its just me, but right after changing the oil the car feels great!!! then once it gets really dirty i lose power... must be all those abbrasive soot particles :evil:
something that most people also overlook is bearings. a good thing to do is to clean out the rear bearings and pack in some good grease. you can get ones that reduce friction with some moly additive... good for maybe .2 or .5 mpg?? :lol: or more depending on how fast you drive.. front bearings aren't so simple and must be pressed in. brakes dragging will reduce mpg, bad tires... bad alignment... bad tie rods, ball joints, even suspension can affect (i had a golf with bad rear struts, and the rear would vibrate like hell going more than 80km/h!! :lol:) 40 psi in the tires helps, but IMO it can the tires down the wrong way unless they are designed for that much pressure. i think its called cupping.
now with all that being said, if the injectors have never been replaced, it's probably not a bad idea considering they don't last forever, and around 100'000 miles is a good timeframe to change nozzles.
Thanks, JT. I put a lot of money in this car. Lot less if i was mechanically inclined. Air filter recently changed. Fuel filter drained every 1,000 miles changed every 5.
Honestly can not say I noticed any drop in power or having to rev it up to get it going. Oil was changed before my trip to PA from Royal Purple to Shell Rotella 5W40 synthetic.
Am now running 195/65R14 tires on VW 5 spoke wheels. Brakes are good, I smell no brake pads as I drive, new tires, new suspension, new front CV shafts, brakes have about 15,000 miles (24,000km), new ball joints, new timing belt and gear. Alignment was done with new tire purchase. Tires are checked once a week for pressure. Even found a Recaro interior in Boston and put it in. That trip I got 715 miles out of 14.8 gallons (I top off for more accurate mileage numbers). Driving no more than 60 mph.
Even when diesel was cheap @ $2.00 I drove 70-75 to keep up with NY traffic, with stop and go mixed in, and still averaged 43mpg.
However, the air filter holder is missing a few clips. One corner has a screw in place and I duct taped the rest shut to get a better seal.
Car runs great. Even with diesel dropping to $4.199, My F250 PSD sits. I use the Jetta 99.9% of the time. But I am getting mileage not worth bragging about. So my guess is the injectors. Love cars, just cant fix them (yes, I tried...lol).
Seems the injector pump is still fine (or is it?). Saving my pennies to drive up to Toronto and "Giles" my IP. So my guess is the injectors are not what they were 221,000 miles ago.. lol.
AZ Autohaus has injectors for 30 dollars or so. Many on here have no problems with them from what I read. Anyplace cheaper than them? $1-$2 difference won't break my bank if they are reliable and give great service.
Again thanks much. Stay safe, stay well.
(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j46/smketrfdny/Picture001.jpg)
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Well, as I recall, you didn't have an air conditioner that worked at first...then you got it repaired. Still running the air???
Yea, went to a VW specialist and left a lot poorer. But a/c doesn't hold a charge, and I need to throw a can in every 2 weeks.
But for a 19 year old car, it blows Ice cold. As I like it.
Stay safe, stay well.
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AC takes 4-5 mpg off my car.
Not really a power difference just mileage.
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AC takes 4-5 mpg off my car.
Not really a power difference just mileage.
Definitely. But have not been using it since I noticed the drop. Haven't had a need.
My apologies for omitting that.
SS,SW.
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have you used a can of sealer in your a/c system??? it is more than likely that the valves are leaking, unless you installed the retrofit kit for 134a valves.. some people just put the low side valve, but the high side could still leak. not much, but enough to lose a charge in a month or less.
now for the royal purple... some people report getting better mileage with it, so if i were you, switch back, and even get their transmission oil too.
i think you could probably swap out the injectors by yourself, just remember not to put any down force on the head or you'll crack the injector boss. if its really bad you go 1/4 turn then 1/8 turn back, then 1/4 turn and so on. spray with some lube everyday for a week before doing them seems to help, as well as getting the head hot. there's also this stuff that our canadian tire sells, and it is meant to freeze nuts n bolts to help get them out, and if you froze the injector it would shrink, making it easier to get out. don't get liquid nitrogen though :lol:
the pump from Giles will be all calibrated and i think just by that you will see 50 mpg, and better performance...
just out of curiosity, what is your highway rpm's like???
and just a little tip, use passat rear springs to match the height of the front. (Dr. Diesel taught me that)
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have you used a can of sealer in your a/c system??? it is more than likely that the valves are leaking, unless you installed the retrofit kit for 134a valves.. some people just put the low side valve, but the high side could still leak. not much, but enough to lose a charge in a month or less.
I tried sealer didnt work. holds for about 2-3 weeks. Lines are original. Not cheap to replace. But holds somewhat.
now for the royal purple... some people report getting better mileage with it, so if i were you, switch back, and even get their transmission oil too.
Went to synthetic Rotella 5W-40. Didn't notice much with the RP. Am thinking about a bypass (ala Amsoil) to keep expenses down with oil changes.
Im certain the transmission hasnt been changed since the original owner. I'll do RP on that in a week or 2.
i think you could probably swap out the injectors by yourself, just remember not to put any down force on the head or you'll crack the injector boss. if its really bad you go 1/4 turn then 1/8 turn back, then 1/4 turn and so on. spray with some lube everyday for a week before doing them seems to help, as well as getting the head hot. there's also this stuff that our canadian tire sells, and it is meant to freeze nuts n bolts to help get them out, and if you froze the injector it would shrink, making it easier to get out. don't get liquid nitrogen though :lol:
By my own admittance, I am the original "Mr. Badwrench". Of course, having the right tools and a place to do it does make it easier to do repairs. I would be afraid to break something or drop something. I also would think a tool to properly calibrate torque is highly recommended (which I don't have). Esp. with injectors.
the pump from Giles will be all calibrated and i think just by that you will see 50 mpg, and better performance...
Saving my pennies for it. I can swap tours at work and get a week off or more. I'd rather drive up north and have him take out and reinstall than try it myself (if he does that).My siblings work for Marriott and I get hotels dirt cheap. Is Toronto nice to sightsee in at -50 degrees and 19 feet of snow? lolol
just out of curiosity, what is your highway rpm's like???
Don't have a tach. But my ears havent really picked up a noticable increase in RPM's. Not that that makes much sense. But i'm not revving at high rpms for 60-70mph
and just a little tip, use passat rear springs to match the height of the front. (Dr. Diesel taught me that)
What year springs would fit in the 89?
Thanks for the tips.
Stay safe, stay well
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Yes Giles will re and re the pump... well I'll do it, but same thing 8)
If you are having a hard time imagining Toronto at -50 with 19 feet of snow, put a white sheet of paper about 3 inches from your face and just stare at it. I'd say it's about 85% accurate :lol: I sure hope it doesn't hit -50, I haven't seen that kind of cold in years. -40 is usually as low as it goes in north bay (4 hours north) and I would guess TO is warmer.
mk3 VR rear springs will also get your rear where it needs to be, or the hockey pump mod, that's my personal favorite (or both, like I do)
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Yes Giles will re and re the pump... well I'll do it, but same thing 8)
If you are having a hard time imagining Toronto at -50 with 19 feet of snow, put a white sheet of paper about 3 inches from your face and just stare at it. I'd say it's about 85% accurate :lol: I sure hope it doesn't hit -50, I haven't seen that kind of cold in years. -40 is usually as low as it goes in north bay (4 hours north) and I would guess TO is warmer.
mk3 VR rear springs will also get your rear where it needs to be, or the hockey pump mod, that's my personal favorite (or both, like I do)
Hey, thanks for answering. I thought I'd give ya a break from all my PM's and burden others.....BTW, what is the cost for the 1.6 n/a IP to be "Gilesfied"?
When I get up there. I'll buy the 1st few rounds. Still owe ya from the camping trip I missed (even if it was cancelled).
Stay safe, stay well.
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NA pumps are $750 CAD, not sure what that is in USD at the moment
A round of beer sounds like an excellent idea :D
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NA pumps are $750 CAD, not sure what that is in USD at the moment
A round of beer sounds like an excellent idea :D
Dollars both US and Canadian are running neck and neck. 12 cents difference
Consider the beer a definite.
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for tightening injectors you dont really need a torque wrench... but you must use new heat shields. just slap some anti seize on the threads and tighten it in. again do not put any down force on the head and when it gets tight, dont push it. the anti seize will act as a lube, so friction losses are reduced. remember that you are essentially squishing the heat shield, so you should be able to feel it not want to go anymore.
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Unless you have done a few with a torque wrench and have a feel for it, I would not recommend trying it without a torque wrench
0.12*750= $90
That's not a bad savings
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Unless you have done a few with a torque wrench and have a feel for it, I would not recommend trying it without a torque wrench
0.12*750= $90
That's not a bad savings
No, not at all. As you see, my mechanical talents are poor. Had no knowledge of not using any type of torque wrench on injectors. "Mr. Badwrench" lives !!!!! lol
Saving my pennies, Tyler. See ya soon.
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Well, another 508 miles on 12.217 gallons. Even with hills going up to Albany, NY and Western Mass., I still average 41.7 while trying to stay at 55-60, but no higher than 65. No A/C used at all.
New tires, new alignment, new CV shafts, new timing belt, new air filter, fuel filter changed 5k miles ago, drained every 1000 miles. All unecessary weight removed from trunk/passenger area.
Guys here with more miles than mine still are getting 4-8 and more mpg. I drive any slower, those old folks on the electric scooters will pass me.
Any other suggestions? (And it's anatomically impossible to do THAT!)
Thanks again.
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41.7 isn't that bad.
But I wonder why you cant get higher.
I'm driver no slower than 65 in my TD and I'm getting a solid 44..
Every car is different I guess
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41.7 isn't that bad.
But I wonder why you cant get higher.
I'm driver no slower than 65 in my TD and I'm getting a solid 44..
Every car is different I guess
Amen, beggars can't be choosers. I agree. But I had a high of 55.9 driving 55-60, and averaged 45-48mpg, and 43 mpg doing 70-75.
I burn very little oil, so compression should be good (???). I wonder if injectors with 222k miles could cause a drop in mpg.
I'm not good with a wrench, and don't want to spend a ton of $$ having something done with no improvement.
Some of you guys here are amazing with these VW diesels. And Tyler has given me tons of info with PM's.
So I wonder if and how I can improve my mpg, besides going to get my IP "Gilesfied".
And if that gives me great mileage, as many here have said (and I'm not doubting), maybe my IP is wearing out?
Thanks again. Stay safe, stay well.
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search for facet fuel pump on ebay. those little pumps are great for getting rid of bubbles in the fuel lines. which will increase the life of your pump, and give you smoother power & easier starting... nothing like getting a worn pump rebuilt though!
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search for facet fuel pump on ebay. those little pumps are great for getting rid of bubbles in the fuel lines. which will increase the life of your pump, and give you smoother power & easier starting... nothing like getting a worn pump rebuilt though!
Will this improve the mpg? I add stanadyne or power service diesel conditioner every fill up for lubrication of the IP.
Air bubbles in the system can affect mpg? If so, that much?
Thanks....SS, SW.
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search for facet fuel pump on ebay. those little pumps are great for getting rid of bubbles in the fuel lines. which will increase the life of your pump, and give you smoother power & easier starting... nothing like getting a worn pump rebuilt though!
Will this improve the mpg? I add stanadyne or power service diesel conditioner every fill up for lubrication of the IP.
Air bubbles in the system can affect mpg? If so, that much?
Thanks....SS, SW.
if you have air going into the pump, the pump won't be able to maintain the right internal pressure, so the dynamic timing is affected. those little pumps really help in that the pump always has enough fuel going to it. it also helps with fuel filter changes :wink: and can even extend the life of a fuel filter!
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search for facet fuel pump on ebay. those little pumps are great for getting rid of bubbles in the fuel lines. which will increase the life of your pump, and give you smoother power & easier starting... nothing like getting a worn pump rebuilt though!
Will this improve the mpg? I add stanadyne or power service diesel conditioner every fill up for lubrication of the IP.
Air bubbles in the system can affect mpg? If so, that much?
Thanks....SS, SW.
if you have air going into the pump, the pump won't be able to maintain the right internal pressure, so the dynamic timing is affected. those little pumps really help in that the pump always has enough fuel going to it. it also helps with fuel filter changes :wink: and can even extend the life of a fuel filter!
Learn something new every day. Thanks.
But if this is the problem, why now? Time, age, ULSD, etc.?
And you would rule out injectors being the problem?
I'll check Ebay tho,thanks again.
Stay safe, stay well.
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i'd get the pump & the injectors... at least new nozzles, as they are a maintenance item such as the timing belt. the damage caused by a faulty injector is pretty bad! burnt pre-cups, holes in pistons/head, etc... if you're tight on funds check out prothe's site www.vwdiesel.com i bought a set of his TD injectors and they seem to be running just fine (installed around march of this year - about 5000km on them so far). i had the GTD's installed before, and they have a noticeable power increase, but all i noticed from going to his injectors were a slight power decrease.
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i'd get the pump & the injectors... at least new nozzles, as they are a maintenance item such as the timing belt. the damage caused by a faulty injector is pretty bad! burnt pre-cups, holes in pistons/head, etc... if you're tight on funds check out prothe's site www.vwdiesel.com i bought a set of his TD injectors and they seem to be running just fine (installed around march of this year - about 5000km on them so far). i had the GTD's installed before, and they have a noticeable power increase, but all i noticed from going to his injectors were a slight power decrease.
Thanks. As I am saving my pennies to get my IP "Gilesfied", I plan on making a trip to Toronto for a few days and let him and/or Tyler do the pump, and buy Tyler a few beers I owe him...lol
Old injectors (as I guessed) may be compounding the IP situation you mentioned. This car runs great, and as much as I want a new one, I wanna get as many miles as I can out of it. And I have to have a clutch in my new TDI. That auto/shift in the '09 isn't the same, IMO.
Since I added the Recaro interior I bought off the Vortex, it's even more fun and comfortable to drive. 20 hp (as I am told the "Gilesfied" pump may give me), I think may be more than enough to keep up with traffic.. lol
Not looking for an Indy cruiser (and I am still amazed you guys get so much hp out of these things), but something just a little more peppy. And spoiled with great mileage that I want back.. :)
Thanks for the input from all.
Stay safe, stay well.
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search for facet fuel pump on ebay. those little pumps are great for getting rid of bubbles in the fuel lines. which will increase the life of your pump, and give you smoother power & easier starting... nothing like getting a worn pump rebuilt though!
Many Facet fuel pumps. Any for VW diesel or are some universal?
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Maybe this is a big reason my mileage dropped.
Checking over car today, noticed smoke from oil fill on valve cover. As I took it off, I was given a hand by abnormal backpressure. So it seems a lot of back pressure is building in the engine, to a point where it pushes my oil dipstick up.
Seems the hose off the valve cover to the air intake is clear. I do not recall this car having a PCV/EGR valve. So I do not know where the back pressure can be coming from.
Again, I leave it to the experts. Fire away. Thanks in advance.
Stay safe, stay well.
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Sounds like you could have some blow by. :? If you have the injectors removed for rebuild, you may want to do a compression test at the same time.
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Sounds like you could have some blow by. :? If you have the injectors removed for rebuild, you may want to do a compression test at the same time.
Thanks, Cyrus. Went to a pal of mine who is a heavy duty diesel mechanic (not a VW wiz like the guys here). Called VW who said there was some sort of PCV type valve that goes on top of the valve cover, at a cost of 80 bucks.
I bought the car with 182k, and have not had a problem with anything till I posted the mileage loss. Obviously and hopefully, this will solve the back pressure/ mileage problem.
As I posted, I'm not mechanically inclined. And I can take a good guess that the PO took it off, and didnt want to spend the money to replace it. When I bought the car, the only thing was the hose that goes under the air cleaner was connected directly to the valve cover. As bad as I am with cars, I think I would have noticed that valve there.
Thanks to all for the info and the replies. Hopefully this will correct it, and I'll get my 45+ mpg back.
Stay safe, stay well.
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for tightening injectors you dont really need a torque wrench...
I actually got a little light headed when I read that........... :shock:
Broken injector boss's are going to be showing up now!! Way to go!! :?
Seriously though. I will NEVER not use a torque wrench again on a injector.
NEVER!
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I agree, a torque wrench is a must for tightening injectors. Plus, absolutely make sure the threads are clean of debris/deposits. I can say from personal experience that I did not enjoy installing a new head in place of what was a perfectly good one. :oops: :x
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for tightening injectors you dont really need a torque wrench...
I actually got a little light headed when I read that........... :shock:
Broken injector boss's are going to be showing up now!! Way to go!! :?
Seriously though. I will NEVER not use a torque wrench again on a injector.
NEVER!
i've seen andy2 do it flawlessly without... but i guess you need to have a feel for it.
the way i see it, it will feel pretty good when the heat shield is being bent in, and then you'll feel it tighten up. maybe you guys just don't know your own strength? :lol:
another key to this, is that anti seize was used. so a lot more torque was being applied to the actual tightening, and not overcoming the friction... so it was easier to feel the actual torque.
BUT i always like doing things by the book too... it would be a shame to ruin a boss just by 'cutting corners'...
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Called VW who said there was some sort of PCV type valve that goes on top of the valve cover, at a cost of 80 bucks.
They lied. On a NA it is built into the valve cover. If you take your valve cover off and look on the inside where that hose comes out you will see a mesh like piece built in there. I beleive you can clean it out (light compressed air and varsol or something similar). The TDs and gassers have the one above the valve cover
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Called VW who said there was some sort of PCV type valve that goes on top of the valve cover, at a cost of 80 bucks.
They lied. On a NA it is built into the valve cover. If you take your valve cover off and look on the inside where that hose comes out you will see a mesh like piece built in there. I beleive you can clean it out (light compressed air and varsol or something similar). The TDs and gassers have the one above the valve cover
Thanks, Tyler. Next time I'll just PM ya. :)
Was hoping to see a pic in the Bentley Book. No go. Will take off valve cover and check that screen. Hopefully that will do it.
As for now, I'm leaving my oil dipstick out to release the pressure.
Thought I'd give ya a break.. What do I owe u now, 2 cases of beer? lol
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My information is free (and not always correct), unless you are calling my 1-900 number :P
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My information is free (and not always correct), unless you are calling my 1-900 number :P
If I call this number, ya better be worth it.. lol
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for tightening injectors you dont really need a torque wrench...
I actually got a little light headed when I read that........... :shock:
Broken injector boss's are going to be showing up now!! Way to go!! :?
Seriously though. I will NEVER not use a torque wrench again on a injector.
NEVER!
i've seen andy2 do it flawlessly without... but i guess you need to have a feel for it.
the way i see it, it will feel pretty good when the heat shield is being bent in, and then you'll feel it tighten up. maybe you guys just don't know your own strength? :lol:
another key to this, is that anti seize was used. so a lot more torque was being applied to the actual tightening, and not overcoming the friction... so it was easier to feel the actual torque.
BUT i always like doing things by the book too... it would be a shame to ruin a boss just by 'cutting corners'...
I've done it a few times myself but that one time "SNAP"!!!!!
SONOFABI*CH!!!!!!!!!!
So ya, I'll be using a torque wrench from now on.
I guess the worst part was I was just minutes from starting the engine after a rebuild so when that happened my heart just sank..
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Took off valve cover today. Cleaned screen in a parts washer. Some sludge did come out. Cleaned out "Y" hose to air intake.
Still blowing dipstick up a few inches.
Tyler mentioned the brake booster vacuum. Go for compression test Friday. We'll see how that goes.
Seems like rings, as as few have posted.
Thanks to all for the help on both mileage and this problem.
Stay safe, stay well.