VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: autoholic on October 06, 2008, 05:56:54 pm
-
Seems that I blew my HG so now I'm gonna install some head studs. Anyone have a part# for the 11MM? I did search but could not find a good#.
I'm not sure what happened, but I have a coolant to oil leak, a little steam coming out of breather and a little white slime on the oil cap. There is not much coolant in oil that I can see, but something definitely wrong, I also have a small oil/coolant leak from the front of the block, looks like from gasket area. It does not seem to be entering combustion area, it runs fine with no steam out tailpipe that I can see, does not overheat either (and has never been overheated). I hope it's not cracked, this motor only has around 1K miles since complete rebuild, I have alot of dough into the head (wish I just bought a new one). Problem seemed to happen after retorqing those damn stretch bolts.
-
Mike_w: Are you still selling them?
-
ARP 11mm headstud part #: 204-4701
-
Many thanks, really appreciate it.
I'll get them coming tomorrow and tear back into this thing when I find some spare time (in short supply right now). Always something.
-
Ordered ARP studs from Summit today. $122 w/freight, turns out they are the same # as for 1.8T gasser.
-
Drop me a pm when you get them. I really want to go to arp studs but I was way to confused on what is right and wrong part numbers. If you could kinda compare the studs to an old 11mm bolt that would be cool.
-
hey mark,
Let me know how those ARP studs come out. When I emailed them I was told they didn't offer a stud for that and that it would be a custom job. Raceware was about $200 for the set, so maybe those 1.8t studs are the way to go.
How did you manage to blow that hg after 1000 miles? and moreover how did you manage to get 1000 miles on your sammy already?
Also, you see the baja site/ motorsports site we put up? thought you might get a kick out of that...
-conor
-
Hi Conor, I got the studs today, got them from Summit for 122 w/shipping. ARP gave me an outrageous price to buy factory direct.
The part# listed above is for a 1.8T, they look like they will work just right, I'll be doing the HG this weekend.
I do not know why the HG blew, seemed to have happened after retorqing.
The HG is causing a small external leak and a small oil to coolant leak, does not enter cyl.
I may have dinged the gasket (again) when installing it last time around, maybe this is the reason, sure hope it's not a crack. I never really overheated it and have not been punishing it too hard, but there were times in deep mud/steep climbs I had to hammer it for all she was worth, and the temp did go 200F, but still, its not a cyl leak so I do not see why this would cause it. I'm running around 14 PSI at most.
I also got some TD injectors which are going in this weekend.
I have not put 1K miles on it yet, but probably around 600 or so (odometer/speedo is way off),
I'll check out the motorsport site, that Baja project is really awesome, can't wait to see that!
I'll let you know how it goes with the studs, but they sure look like they are right.
-
Pulled the head and discovered a cracked block, 3 cracks around front head bolt (side by oil drain), very ugly situation. It seemed to happen when retorquing the head, I followed the spec, maybe I had some oil in there and it hydrolocked, I don't know but I was careful about cleaning out those holes before assembly.
Anyway, I pulled the motor/trans, disassembled and mounted it on stand.
I have another block which i need to get dipped, bored, int shaft bearings installed at machine shop. I also will prepare the block for the Samurai trans adaptor and engine mounts before bringing it to machine shop.
What a pita, especially considering that motor had only around 500 miles or so: fresh bore, decked. everything! it ran perfect!
I'm gonna put all the parts in the other block, everything is still like new. It should not cost too much dough, but what a waste of time.
I decided to rebuild the Samurai trans while I'm at it, there was alot of metalic crap on magnetic drain plug and it's kind of noisy in neutral.
I'll post some pics of all this at some point, but I am currently camera-less
-
How did you hydrolock studs???
Maybe these studs are different. i always heard, put studs in finger tight, and then slap the head on. torque and go.
anyway, badnews. best of luck on your next
-
No, I did not install the studs yet. I was going to put them in as I though I had a blown HG and liked the idea of going to studs, when I pulled the head I discovered the cracked block, happened after retorqing the original stretch bolts. I have never had a problem with the stretch bolts in the past, but the studs seem like a better way to go and I'll definitely be using them on the new motor.
-
bummer about the cracked block. Always something...seems like we're doomed to always be working on junk in the driveway.
Good luck with the new motor. Oh, I have your tools and that set of heat shields that I need to get to you at some point...
-
happened after retorqing the original stretch bolts. I have never had a problem with the stretch bolts in the past,
Anyone have a part# for the 11MM
Are you using 12mm stretch bolts?
or 11mm headbolts?
-
bummer about the cracked block. Always something...seems like we're doomed to always be working on junk in the driveway.
Good luck with the new motor. Oh, I have your tools and that set of heat shields that I need to get to you at some point...
Thanks for bringing that stuff by. Yea the cracked block is a pita, not sure how I managed that, maybe it was borederline hydro locked and finally cracked when i re torqued. No Fall wheelin for me!
I'm also rebuilding the trans and have those parts on the way, now i just need time!
-
Got a 11mm block rebored to 2ndovers back from the machinists today.
I had read a few posts about head studs and 11mm blocks. Sounds like the way to go.
Sorry to hear about the block cracking...some say that the older CR and CK blocks are prone to that happening.
-
Sorry to hear about the block cracking...some say that the older CR and CK blocks are prone to that happening.
They're not prone to cracking... They are destined to crack.... :cry:
-
Interesting, I'll have to look at the code on my "new" block.
I can see why they can crack, not alot of material around that bolt hole.
I'll have to wait a bit to put this motor back together, I have tons of other stuff i need to get done before winter. It'll be a good winter project.
-
Wow, destined to crack? I hope the studs will help alleviate this problem, I'll check out my code when I get home tonight, never paid any attention to it.
-
sounds like tapping the block for 12mm and drilling out the head would be an easier option at this point... 11mm seems to be such a PITA!
-
yea, but wouldn't that just make it weaker since you would have to remove precious material from around that bolt hole to go to the larger 12MM?
Apparently this cracking has happened to others, this is the first I have seen it. Hopefully making sure the holes are clean and going with studs will prevent it from re-occurring on the next block (even if I do have one of the older codes, which with my luck I will). I am all out of blocks now, all my remaining VW stuff is junk.
-
The main reason the 11mm blocks crack is the bolts only thread in there about a half inch at most (slightly less if I remeber right).. The studs thread in there an inch plus.. Alot more material holding with the studs versus the bolts... I've heard of people drilling the 11mm block to 12mm but I tend to agree, that would leave even less material around the holes.. The studs seem to be the fix...
I've even used studs on blocks with small cracks around the holes with good results... Just put some thread sealer on them.. Not that I would recomend or even admit to doing such a thing... :oops:
-
The main reason the 11mm blocks crack is the bolts only thread in there about a half inch at most (slightly less if I remeber right).. The studs thread in there an inch plus.. Alot more material holding with the studs versus the bolts... I've heard of people drilling the 11mm block to 12mm but I tend to agree, that would leave even less material around the holes.. The studs seem to be the fix...
I've even used studs on blocks with small cracks around the holes with good results... Just put some thread sealer on them.. Not that I would recomend or even admit to doing such a thing... :oops:
Interestingly with a recent gasket job on a late CY 12mm mechanical block, and bolts I noted the following:
Block holes are between 13.5 and 14 TURNS deep.[so I don't see how studs go in much deeper] :?
Bolts start to truely clamp gasket at about 10 TURNS. all done at about 11 TURNS. {I don't believe it I wrote it down somewhere and I've lost it; temporarily I hope :roll: }.
Also noted at the same time that hydro-locking almost impossible unless threads dirty with solids, as air/liquid can be heard oozing out as bolts turned by hand when trying them out before cleaning out all the oil
Andrew's Cam bolt thread tapping post on another site reinforces this IMO.
Don't studs have a finer thread and so need say 2/3 or is it less torque to clamp to the same degree.
Studying a few heads, has lead me to believe that oveclamping merely burys gasket into head which 'ucks it up for a later gasket, and accelerates the need for a skim. :idea:
With stretch bolts, a 45 deg turn in place of 90 deg is also fine, as long as you have reached plastic state of bolt as measured by a torque wrench :idea:
-
On the 11mm block there isn;t alot of meat around the holes, thats why the studs threading in further make all the difference.. 10 threads may be pusing it with the stock bolts, and the 11mm bolts are not stretch bolts..
With the studs you are still clamping the head down with the same amount of force, teh difference is that it actually stays clamped down with the same amound of force versus the block cracking and the head lifting with the original bolts...
-
With all of this being said, Anyone got a torque for the studs?
-
I've used the ARP spec of 80 lbs/ft with their molly grease, or 85 lbs/ft with 30wt oil... Definitely a bit more than the 66 lbs/ft that VW called for but then again let's look at the problems they had.. And I would imagine a half turn from 44 lbs/ft (later 12mm stretch bolt specs) Probably equals a tad more than 66 lbs/ft
I figure if ARP intends that for a gas engine with 9:1 compression it can;t hurt on a diesel with 23:1 compression... And so far so good haven't had to redo a headgaset since... Haven;t had one back apart to see if the rings in the head gasket gouged into the head significanly.. And that's a good thing :D
-
I have not even read the literature yet on my ARP's. Wow 85lb? sounds like alot, especially since they are fine thread! I think i would be kind of scared to go that tight. No, I know I would be scared to go that tight, I will not go that tight.
-
What code should I be looking for, I see a wierd marking with an "EB", it's kind of distorted and has a circle around it? what is the difference in all these blocks. Oops, I forgot to check the FAQ's, I bet the answer is there!
Also, since these diesel block are somewhat scarce, I wonder how the gas blocks are different? I see that the diesels are clearly marked 1.6D, but I do not know what is different?
-
According to my recent tests the initial 12mm stretch point was between 105 and 115 lbft. The torque wrench was a 1980's Snapon wrench which looks very much like the one used by Bosch in their service manuals.
[Previously, I had 'warmed' engine up for 150 miles before first retorque and found that bolts were down to 50 lb ft ish ].
Final angle torquing of the bolts seemed to level off just under 100lb ft ish.
I suppose the gasket deforms more to start with and releases pressure. I've done about 300 miles so far with no water loss/issue.
Edit: make it 3000miles :roll:
-
Final angle torquing of the bolts seemed to level off just under 100lb ft ish.
Wow, no wonder there were problems with head gaskets on these older ones... 66 lbs/ft versus 100 lbs/ft is quite a difference... I wonder if the lower torque spec for the older ones was because they knew the blocks wouldn;t handle any more than that...
-
That would suck... getting it all done and pullijng the threads out - or cracking the block! i would be in tears this time!
-
The engine code is on a flat spot on the upper edge of the block, just more or less directly above the the oil filter mount.
-
That would suck... getting it all done and pullijng the threads out - or cracking the block! i would be in tears this time!
Been there done that... 1.6 freshely bored, new pistons, etc..
Didn;t have my head back from the machine shop yet but decided to install the engine in the car anyway and put the head on later...
Was torqueing the #10 head bolt in the sequence when I hear a rather disheartening crack.. And then the bolt got real loose... And I swore I woudl never use the $*&( VW bolts again.. Of course I did use them again on my current Rabbit because I was being impatient and cheap.. 40,000 miles and I was changing a head gasket, Installed head studs.. And finally got all the oil out of the cooling system...
-
Ouch! the block was in the car on top of it!
Well you know my story, pretty similar situation but happened when retorquing. very few miles on it.
-
Equally agrivating I'm sure.. Chalk it up as another learning experience I guess...
-
According to my recent tests the initial 12mm stretch point was between 105 and 115 lbft. The torque wrench was a 1980's Snapon wrench which looks very much like the one used by Bosch in their service manuals.
X2. I've tested the torque on several diesel heads before I removed them. 100-115 is about the range. Sometimes, I go back and set my wrench to 106 to make sure they're all about the same. Most times, after I've done the sequence and double-check at 106lbs, they all click on my torque wrench. So, yeah, 88lbs is not a ton. BUT, as I've discovered, the lubricant can make a huge difference in the amount of torque exerted. As noted by others, ARP recommends different torques for different lubes. New 12mm bolts usually come pre-lubed, so I just go with that.
-
That makes me feel alot better about using the higher torque spec.. Never had a 12mm getup to check out.. I assumed that there probably was more clamping force there.. I'm wondering if I could torque them a bit more if trouble shoudl ever arise... So far ARP's spec has been working fine...
Still makes me wonder if VW didn;t have such a low spec becasue of the weak block...
-
This is a little side note:
Does anyone have any tips for actually cleaning out the holes?
I read on the thread that you can hear/see oil get squished out when you turn them in by hand but with the studs you're supposed to use assembly lube. I didn't read the thread in full, rather i searched "cleaning" and read those posts. If I'm cutting corners and i missed something in the thread pm me and say look more carefully you doto! but I don't see any advice for actually getting gunk out/oil out.
I admit, you could just hit it with brake cleaner while the block is out and turn it upside down but i don't want to take the block out if at all possible. (i don't have the tools to do so. - no crane, no engine stand, no room))
I'm guessing having old oil in there would mess with the torque spec you're supposed to have with the assembly lube. Any ideas?
Can someone PM me? no need to clutter this thread further unless you deem it useful. Also, anyone with a table pm me with the part no. for head studs on a 1.6td hydro? I just want to make sure. (i already have them)
-
Flat bottomed tap and chase down the holes, hit them with some brake cleaner, then the compressed air... At the least a tap & brake cleanr would be a good Idea, cleans all that baked on crap outta there.. With the threads clean everything should squish outta there if you turn the stud in slowly...
AS far as turning the studs into the block I just thread them in the whole way and snug them a bit.. The end with the nut is where you shoudl have the moly grease on thte threds since that's where the torquing is taking place...
-
oooooooo ok
I figured the whole stud would turn a little bit but that is a very obvious and clear point.
I dont know why i didn't see that. Thanks a lot!
-
AS far as turning the studs into the block I just thread them in the whole way and snug them a bit.. The end with the nut is where you shoudl have the moly grease on thte threds since that's where the torquing is taking place...
I could have sworn I read somewhere to use the Moly lube on both ends of the stud. I can't find where I read that though.
-
Can't hurt anything..... I used Hylomar as a thread sealant on mine... There were a few small cracks in the block so I took a chance to see what would happen.... So far so good...