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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: 53 willys on October 05, 2008, 09:51:59 am
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Im pretty much to the point in my gas to diesel conversion that I need to figure out the glow plug wiring and set-up....I'm not using a factory VW diesel harness so the relay slot in the fuse box is used by the gas fuel pump..I'm gonna keep that relay cause I am keeping my in-tank transfer pump as a diesel lift pump..so I dont want to try and wire it into the VW fuse box.
I thought about a momentary switch..I know it's simple, easy and fast...but I want a more hands free set-up. I was talking with my buddy at work and he was telling me about the early ford diesel glow plug set-ups being a standalone set-up....I looked it up and sure enough it is stand alone...
he is what the book states about it's operation
"The solid-state glow plug system consists of glow plugs, the glow plug harness assembly and the glow plug controller.
The system determines the glow plug temperature by electronically measuring the resistance of the glow plugs. It then maintains this temperature regardless of ambient temperatures.
The system is actuated when the ignition switch is turned to the RUN position. The "WAIT TO START" lamp lights until the glow plugs reach the proper temperature. The lamp goes out and engine can be started.
The after-glow operation of the glow plugs continues after "WAIT TO START" lamp turns off. The glow plugs cycle on and off for a period of time. This helps to reduce white smoke after engine start-up.
The glow plug system can be recycled by turning the ignition off and on. This immediately restarts the glow plug cycle. The engine can be started as soon as the "WAIT TO START" lamp goes off."
Here is a pic of what the relay and controller look like..
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j240/53willys/1991%20Jetta%20GLI%20diesel%20conversion/glowplugcontroller.jpg)
wiring
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j240/53willys/1991%20Jetta%20GLI%20diesel%20conversion/glowplugwire.gif)
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j240/53willys/1991%20Jetta%20GLI%20diesel%20conversion/glowplugwire2.gif)
so what to you guys think?
should/could I use this on my gas to diesel conversion?
it even has wiring lead for the glow plug light
seems like it would be plug and play?
about the only problem with this set-up is the cost of the controller..
it $110 my cost...but the relay is replaceable for $13 later so......
The question I have is...
would I need to have all 8 glow plugs hooked up for the controller to sense/read the right temp of the glow plugs??
if so the this would not work :-(
but if I can hook just 4 plugs up to the control and have it sense/read the right resistance I would be golden right??
I was also thinking I would put fuses on each plug like Vince W..
what do you guys think of that?
thanks for any help or thoughts you all have 8)
Mark
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Glad you posted this I am in the same stages of figuring this out as well. Except I dont have the factory VW setup. So I will be looking forward to reading the solution on this.
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Very very cool system... neat idea to use the resistance of the glow plug itself to monitor engine temperature.
Having said that.... if Bosch glowplugs don't have the same temperature coefficient as the one's Ford uses then the system will probably not work correctly. Dunno how you'd check it out.. but that might be something worth looking into before plunking down your hard-earned cash.
If it turns out that the two systems are incompatible another option would be to get ahold of a standard glow plug relay and temp sensor and hard-wire it in... the pin-out of the relay is pretty straightforward (there's some good discussion over on Jack's forum (http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5293&start=0) on this) and you could solder wires directly to it and avoid needing the relay plate.
BTW... by way of clarification (since I take a fair number of questions on this !) the individual glow plug fuses *are* a bit of overkill but serve two important purposes:
- by using individual fuses a single glowplug can go south and not take out the rest by blowing the common fuse they all share on the stock system
- the individual fuses give you a way to quickly isolate all four plugs so that you can check them individually for current draw, continuity, etc.
I used glass fuses so that my eye can tell if one is blown.. others use the ATC style which are probably more rugged... either will work.
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Very very cool system... neat idea to use the resistance of the glow plug itself to monitor engine temperature.
Having said that.... if Bosch glowplugs don't have the same temperature coefficient as the one's Ford uses then the system will probably not work correctly. Dunno how you'd check it out.. but that might be something worth looking into before plunking down your hard-earned cash.
If it turns out that the two systems are incompatible another option would be to get ahold of a standard glow plug relay and temp sensor and hard-wire it in... the pin-out of the relay is pretty straightforward (there's some good discussion over on Jack's forum on this) and you could solder wires directly to it and avoid needing the relay plate.
BTW... by way of clarification (since I take a fair number of questions on this !) the individual glow plug fuses *are* a bit of overkill but serve two important purposes:
- by using individual fuses a single plug can go south and not take out the rest by blowing the common fuse they all share on the stock system
- the individual fuses give you a way to quickly isolate all four plugs so that you can check them individually for current draw, continuity, etc.
- I used glass fuses so that my eye can tell if one is blown.. others use the ATC style which are probably more rugged... either will work.
yeah finding out if they will interchange is the hard part..
I'm thinking I will go to pick and pull today and see if they have the ford relay there?? and maybe a glow plug to??
I looked up the ford GP in the book and it does not give any type of value or specs that I can find..
we have Deutz diesels at work and they have the same style GP relay as the VW..but our deutz only use 1 GP..so they may have different specs.
I would like to find a base or something if I use the stock style GPR..that way I can carry a spare "just in case"
I like the fuse idea it's a good idea...I dont have a problem with over kill at all.
have you seen the lighted ATC fuses they have now??
we got some at work..but I have yet to see one blown to see the light...
http://www.allspectrum.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=550&osCsid=e4dc8d5c051f5a66e5c6fcd64e158c62
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Is there a write up on how to wire up the GPR if you dont have a stock setup?
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You can get a stand alone relay socket for a "smart" relay from a TDi bug or golf etc. Works with head temp sensor, stayes on after start for a bit & has a connection for a dash LED.
(http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/484640.jpg)
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What years was it available on? Anyone know where to pick one up our local boneyards have no tdi vehicles at all.
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53willys,
if you can figure out a package you could sell them allready made up to those that are electrically challenged? like me!
Duane
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yes I would buy it. I would pay like $50 for one if all I had to do was attatch wires.
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Isn't it the case that the dedicated LED circuitry lies, and you are better off monitoring straight off the bus bar/s
Here's something I cobbled together some years ago now....
(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/9254/misersmonitor5wc.th.jpg) (http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=misersmonitor5wc.jpg)
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yes I would buy it. I would pay like $50 for one if all I had to do was attatch wires.
well i think he said for just the controller was 110bucks!
prolly looking at 250bucks for something complete?
Duane
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If it were in a kit form. I would like to get something along those lines or even use the smart socket like you were talking about. If I could find one one.
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You can get a stand alone relay socket for a "smart" relay from a TDi bug or golf etc. Works with head temp sensor, stayes on after start for a bit & has a connection for a dash LED.
(http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/484640.jpg)
went to the wrecking yard today...found a single relay base from a 2.0 gas jetta(MKIII style) just like the one you posted above...
so I guess I could just wire a stock GPR up to this socket??
this may be the quickest and easiest route to take right now??
I really like the ford set-up...but I cant find one at the wrecking yard and I don't want to waste money on a new one only to have it burn up my vw GP's....if I knew the resistance of the ford plugs I may try it but I cant find any info yet....
to be continued...........
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Not sure that a gas Jetta would have the correct relay socket for a diesel glow plug relay, but VW loves to re-use parts so you never know ??!!
The pin-out for the relay is in the link to Jack's forum I posted... pretty much just wire up the pins as listed and away you go !
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Mark I have a spare GP relay you can look at for this project.
Personally I think using a stock relay runing a ford starter relay is the bedt way to go.
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Mark I have a spare GP relay you can look at for this project.
Personally I think using a stock relay running a ford starter relay is the best way to go.
thanks Dan! I may just take you up on that...I think I can get this beast fired up this week..so I will need a GPR....
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Isn't it the case that the dedicated LED circuitry lies, and you are better off monitoring straight off the bus bar/s
Ya know when it went in I didn't trust the LED bit & went to the bus bar! Good memory!!
As for the gasser relay base I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same.
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Maybe that car you found @ the PnP had a relay?
Those things are spendy!!!
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Maybe that car you found @ the PnP had a relay?
Those things are spendy!!!
no it's not there :( I checked..all the relays had been pulled..the ones left on the seat did not seem to be the same style as the ones I have seen....
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figures :(
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Ford glow plugs are 10.5 V units that big twisted bit of metal is a dropping resistor ( restricts the amount of MAX amperage to the plugs )
the 2 systems are not compatible ... its quite easy to hook up a VW glow plug relay without the temp sensor ( gives max heat time without it) the glow plug indicator bulb must be hooked between the B+ and the relay to indicate correctly ( not to ground ) each tiome you hit the starter, the relay drops out and then back in for 10 seconds after the key is relaesed.
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I'm gonna keep that relay cause I am keeping my in-tank transfer pump as a diesel lift pump..so I dont want to try and wire it into the VW fuse box.
87 - 94 Ford's are likely to be fuel injected... This means your in tank pump is likely to be a high pressure pump. This will be a real problem for your IP as far as timing is concerned, maybe seals as well - or so it is said. You might want to check the pressure - I don't think the IP will tollerate much more than 3 - 4 PSI. Every in-tank pump I've seen is at least 20x that amount.
On my conversion I removed the in tank pump and by-passed it keeping the fuel gauge sending unit:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=15633&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45
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I'm gonna keep that relay cause I am keeping my in-tank transfer pump as a diesel lift pump..so I dont want to try and wire it into the VW fuse box.
87 - 94 Ford's are likely to be fuel injected... This means your in tank pump is likely to be a high pressure pump. This will be a real problem for your IP as far as timing is concerned, maybe seals as well - or so it is said. You might want to check the pressure - I don't think the IP will tollerate much more than 3 - 4 PSI. Every in-tank pump I've seen is at least 20x that amount.
On my conversion I removed the in tank pump and by-passed it keeping the fuel gauge sending unit:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=15633&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45
The in tank pump isn't high pressure.
He's referring to his GLI here not the Ford. The relay he is refering to is the OE fuel pmp relay in the GLI.
The high pressure pump is where our water separators would be and he has removed that.
Also the IP will not only handle more than 3-4psi but it will like it as well.
Giles has even commented on this somewhere on this board.
I'm running 12 psi currently, give me a really good dynamic advance.
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WOW ! My understanding was contrary. OK, I'll have to test this when I start driving my conversion soon. My electronic lift pump is switched and I only installed it to quickly bleed air from the lines when new or if I ran out of fuel due to fuel gauge malfunction - something that's happened to me.
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Vw's intank pump (transfer pump) is 6-7 psi...that is what mine tested at anyway.
I may end up ditching the oem pump after all and running a "raptor lift pump" I pulled the ECM out of the car last night and i'm pretty sure the ECM is what controls the transfer pump......
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Isn't it the case that the dedicated LED circuitry lies, and you are better off monitoring straight off the bus bar/s
Ya know when it went in I didn't trust the LED bit & went to the bus bar! Good memory!!
As for the gasser relay base I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same.
Yep it's the same base. There is about 3 wires to move/reuse. I have a list somewhere
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Isn't it the case that the dedicated LED circuitry lies, and you are better off monitoring straight off the bus bar/s
Ya know when it went in I didn't trust the LED bit & went to the bus bar! Good memory!!
As for the gasser relay base I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same.
Yep it's the same base. There is about 3 wires to move/reuse. I have a list somewhere
man that would be some good info to post up if you got it??
it looks like it's missing the glow plug light spade/connection at my quick glance I took...
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Also the IP will not only handle more than 3-4psi but it will like it as well.
Giles has even commented on this somewhere on this board.
I'm running 12 psi currently, give me a really good dynamic advance.
Can you point me to these posts by Giles where he says a high pressure lift pump is a good thing ? I found just the opposite when I searched...
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=12976&highlight=lift+pump+high+pressure+timing+giles
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Also the IP will not only handle more than 3-4psi but it will like it as well.
Giles has even commented on this somewhere on this board.
I'm running 12 psi currently, give me a really good dynamic advance.
Can you point me to these posts by Giles where he says a high pressure lift pump is a good thing ? I found just the opposite when I searched...
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=12976&highlight=lift+pump+high+pressure+timing+giles
You need to read the thread you linked again, Giles dosnt say running a lift pump is bad he's saying it's not needed if your vane pump is good.
I'm not searching for a thread I read once sorry. I dont have time and if you dont belive me pick up the phone and call Giles.
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Also the IP will not only handle more than 3-4psi but it will like it as well.
Giles has even commented on this somewhere on this board.
I'm running 12 psi currently, give me a really good dynamic advance.
Can you point me to these posts by Giles where he says a high pressure lift pump is a good thing ? I found just the opposite when I searched...
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=12976&highlight=lift+pump+high+pressure+timing+giles
You need to read the thread you linked again, Giles dosnt say running a lift pump is bad he's saying it's not needed if your vane pump is good.
I'm not searching for a thread I read once sorry. I dont have time and if you dont belive me pick up the phone and call Giles.
No worries - I just thought maybe you had it book marked :-)
Like I said, I'll have to do some numberic testing w/ and w/o my pump.
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Mark(The Miser)UK wrote:
blackdogvan wrote:
Quote:
Isn't it the case that the dedicated LED circuitry lies, and you are better off monitoring straight off the bus bar/s
Ya know when it went in I didn't trust the LED bit & went to the bus bar! Good memory!!
As for the gasser relay base I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same.
Yep it's the same base. There is about 3 wires to move/reuse. I have a list somewhere
man that would be some good info to post up if you got it??
it looks like it's missing the glow plug light spade/connection at my quick glance I took...
Another thing about this relay, it looks at the head temp sensor & disables the plugs if you are starting a warm engine. My AAZ starter didn't have the rpm to consistently start a warm engine with no plugs something a mech friend of mine said is normal, some people opt for a higher rpm tdi starter to solve this. So long story short I just unplugged the temp sensor.
So to sum up, the super smart relay has a LED output that lies if your relay sticks on and you may not want the temp sensor part hooked up. About the only thing it does is come on automatically with the ignition & shuts itself off after a few seconds.
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Mark(The Miser)UK wrote:
blackdogvan wrote:
Quote:
Isn't it the case that the dedicated LED circuitry lies, and you are better off monitoring straight off the bus bar/s
Ya know when it went in I didn't trust the LED bit & went to the bus bar! Good memory!!
As for the gasser relay base I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same.
Yep it's the same base. There is about 3 wires to move/reuse. I have a list somewhere
man that would be some good info to post up if you got it??
it looks like it's missing the glow plug light spade/connection at my quick glance I took...
Another thing about this relay, it looks at the head temp sensor & disables the plugs if you are starting a warm engine. My AAZ starter didn't have the rpm to consistently start a warm engine with no plugs something a mech friend of mine said is normal, some people opt for a higher rpm tdi starter to solve this. So long story short I just unplugged the temp sensor.
So to sum up, the super smart relay has a LED output that lies if your relay sticks on and you may not want the temp sensor part hooked up. About the only thing it does is come on automatically with the ignition & shuts itself off after a few seconds.
Ya I can confirm the head sensor disableing the GP's when it's warm.
Mine is unplugged as well, turns off a few seconds after I fire it up.
I wonder if we could just run a wire to the "Check Engine" light in this case for the GP light..
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Isn't it the case that the dedicated LED circuitry lies, and you are better off monitoring straight off the bus bar/s
Ya know when it went in I didn't trust the LED bit & went to the bus bar! Good memory!!
As for the gasser relay base I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same.
Yep it's the same base. There is about 3 wires to move/reuse. I have a list somewhere
man that would be some good info to post up if you got it??
it looks like it's missing the glow plug light spade/connection at my quick glance I took...
Duh
Willys I may have misled you; all my cable tracing was for mk2 gasser to diesel stuff, so I guess your mk3 relayboard looks like something from a different planet :roll:
sorry :cry: ...
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Isn't it the case that the dedicated LED circuitry lies, and you are better off monitoring straight off the bus bar/s
Ya know when it went in I didn't trust the LED bit & went to the bus bar! Good memory!!
As for the gasser relay base I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same.
Yep it's the same base. There is about 3 wires to move/reuse. I have a list somewhere
man that would be some good info to post up if you got it??
it looks like it's missing the glow plug light spade/connection at my quick glance I took...
Duh
Willys I may have misled you; all my cable tracing was for mk2 gasser to diesel stuff, so I guess your mk3 relayboard looks like something from a different planet :roll:
sorry :cry: ...
Nope your cool Mark, we are working on a mk2....
92 GLI to be exact.
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OK lets try this:
On mk2 stuff, relay position 2 on a gasser was used for inlet manifold preheater for carb stuff. On fuel injection it was for the fuel pump.
Same socket is used by diesel setup.
Here's what we have internally, If you're good you'll recognise the cluster of pins near top left ;)
(http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/6220/germanartyyt6.th.jpg) (http://img256.imageshack.us/my.php?image=germanartyyt6.jpg)
This is base of glowplug relay. Basic picture snaffled from Roger's excellent Caddy site. I've added the important bits: Damn, for 'N' read 'P' on the diagram
(http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/5038/glowplugrelay1mz0.th.jpg) (http://img160.imageshack.us/my.php?image=glowplugrelay1mz0.jpg)]
Wire changes Gasser to Diesel:
Terminal 50 starter signal is actually already built in. Same with '85' the [31] labelled system earth, and '86' ignition supply.
'30' This is the main red/white directly from battery to back of relay board. As this now supplies the glowplugs rather than the ignition coil, use the larger one swiped from the diesel donar vehicle or just remade. This pushes on to the 'large N' terminal.
From any of the 6 'P' terminals, take your glow plug supply back out (I removed a smaller red line that was for the preheater in the case of my 1.6 Carb'ed gasser.)
The 'T' coolant temp sensor needs a wire from the back of the relay board 'D13' There may be a gasser wire convienient, [I'll edit later if I spot it] ;) Take it to the sensor on top rad hose.
Finally, I think ;) The 'L' LED indicator. This wire blue /green may not be in the loom towards the instruments. It comes from terminal B6 on the back of the relayboard and goes through instrument connector block T14, position 10.
Incidentally the red/black wire on the gasser to the coil [terminal 1] can connect directly to the installed wire coming up from the 'W' terminal It then links to the instrument panel directly on the gasser tach [replace tach, or use Reg Cheeseman's very clever replacement tach circuit...
I think that's it :)... Except here's a poor copy of the back of the relay board so that you can under stand the 'B6', and 'P' and 'N' waffling I've been on about :roll:
http://www.bentleypublishers.com/tech/vw/bentley.vw.fuse.panel.rear.1984-1993.htm
Absolutely finally; some of the early Mk2/ late mk1 relay boards used the 'H',s for power out[ or is it in :roll: ] and a few other labelling differences