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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Dirtrag2 on September 08, 2008, 07:07:50 pm
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I've finally got her home, my '88 Fox Wagon, with full intentions of fitting my AAZ under the hood. I drove a total of 500 km to pick her up today, I rented a tow dolly as I thought it would be better than a Tow-bar and Whoah what a rough ride... :? Should've gone with the bar ! in any case she is home and I will be starting with the removal of all interior stuff this next weekend to see the extent of the rust on the floor and other hidden parts. I'll post some pics tomorrow as now i am too tired to even think.
here is a list of what has been done to motor and what will come. any advise is more than welcome :lol:
done:
complete engine rebuild from crank bearings up
T3 turbo
EGT and oil pressure gauges
comming
ARP head studs ( should i do anything else while engine is apart ? )
3" exhaust from turbo back
FMIC
stage 2 clutch
lightened flywheel? ( or should I use the 8v flywheel from the Fox )
lift pump
if I can afford it a Gilles superpump :P
then maybe water injection
whell that's all 4 now, i'll post pics tomorrow :arrow:
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Always great to read about someone working on a Fox!
Thoughts:
- Have you thought about which transmission (http://www.lunaticfringe.org/vwfox/mod/transmission-swap-specs.html) you'll use? All wagons were 4-speed from the factory, so you'll need the entire 5-speed linkage if upgrading (which I'd recommend).
- How much taller is the AAZ? Will the injection pump clear the hood? An ABA block under a counter-flow gas head clears fine, for comparison.
- The longitudinal layout will result in some really short intercooler piping.
- Will the Fox (or Quantum TD, since it has an oil return bung) oilpan bolt up to the AAZ?
- Awesome!
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here are some pics...
Here She be, just got home
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn184/dirtrag88/ProjektFox001.jpg)
front view
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn184/dirtrag88/ProjektFox003.jpg)
Side view
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn184/dirtrag88/ProjektFox005.jpg)
Dash as is ( before mods )
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn184/dirtrag88/ProjektFox006.jpg)
only 110KM on car so pretty clean inside too
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn184/dirtrag88/ProjektFox009.jpg)
Shock towers, no rust :lol:
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn184/dirtrag88/ProjektFox012.jpg)
engine bay with what's left of 1.8 8V gasser... Yuck
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn184/dirtrag88/ProjektFox020.jpg)
- Have you thought about which transmission you'll use? All wagons were 4-speed from the factory, so you'll need the entire 5-speed linkage if upgrading (which I'd recommend).
- How much taller is the AAZ? Will the injection pump clear the hood? An ABA block under a counter-flow gas head clears fine, for comparison.
4 speed should be good for now with a 3.889 final and a .778 4th gives me 2875 RPM at 110Kmh
as for the IP clearing the hood, well I don't know... Ricer hood scoop if need be I guess :roll:
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Looks good!
More thoughts:
- you've got the early-style dashboard, which is better in my opinion. It has a bigger glovebox (an actually usable one) and both a radio-slot and a cubby-hole underneath. Later dashboards have a knee-bar across the bottom which reduces the glovebox size and eliminates the radio slot, moving it to the floor console. I think all of the early ones have a choke-cable hole that's plugged, which could be used for the cold-start-device cable.
- what dashboard mods are you planning on?
- Adding a tachometer is easy, just get a whole instrument cluster with tachometer from another Fox. All of the wiring (for gas application) is already in the car. Wiring it to work with the TD, I don't know how to do.
- Are you keeping the A/C? Those push-button controls in the dashboard are vacuum-operated. Depending on what the factory put in, the heater valve might be vacuum-operated too.
- The 5-speed transmissions have tighter gearing than the 4-speed, giving you better acceleration. They really transform the car. My Fox went from 4-speed to the 9Q 5-speed, and with the TD swap in the Dasher it first had the Fox's 4-speed and now has a 5M 5-speed. Since you're building the engine for power, you really should transfer it to the ground "faster". All you need is a 5-speed transmission and the whole shifter linkage including the "box" inside the car. It bolts right in.
- Just brainstorming about the hood clearance. Foxes only had diesels in Argentina (as VW Gacel) as far as I know, and even there it was only NA.
- You'll likely need an oil filter bracket from something other than transverse AAZ (assuming the oil filter is in the same place as most other VW 4-cyls). If the bolt pattern is the same as a 1.8L 8v gas, then the Fox one will bolt up (duh). If the bolt pattern is the same as ABA/1.8T, a 1.8T (AEB?) one will bolt up and will have enough extra tapped holes for oil feed.
- If wanting to put an oil pressure sensor in the back of the cylinder head, make sure it'll clear the battery.
- Way to make me rack my brain :)
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I really like Fox's.
A friend has a nice white one for sale locally. If I wasn't so damn concerned about having AC I would snag it and do a TD conversion.
Maybe I should snag it for winter driving.. Hmmmm...
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I love foxes. I've had 2 and they were both tanks. Once drove from Montreal to Chicago and back with basically no clutch. Often wanted to drop in a diesel, the only real problem i saw was having to fab a special narrow deep radiator as to make room for the IP. Never really measured it out though. Sold the last one to buy a 98 TDI whose body was worse then the 89 fox. Last time i heard from the guy i sold it to, told me it had passed 450,000 kms . original HG
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Looks good!
More thoughts:
1- what dashboard mods are you planning on?
2- Are you keeping the A/C? Those push-button controls in the dashboard are vacuum-operated. Depending on what the factory put in, the heater valve might be vacuum-operated too.
3- You'll likely need an oil filter bracket from something other than transverse AAZ (assuming the oil filter is in the same place as most other VW 4-cyls). If the bolt pattern is the same as a 1.8L 8v gas, then the Fox one will bolt up (duh). If the bolt pattern is the same as ABA/1.8T, a 1.8T (AEB?) one will bolt up and will have enough extra tapped holes for oil feed.
4- If wanting to put an oil pressure sensor in the back of the cylinder head, make sure it'll clear the battery.
5- Way to make me rack my brain :)
1- Gauges and tach at the very least, maybe try to fit my MK3 jetta dash in...
2-I'll figure a way to run the a/c with the vaccum pump on my IDI
3-oil filter will be remote mount if the 8v brackets won't fit 8)
4-Battery will be relocated to Trunk :wink:
5- I appreciate your input, all comments are welcomed as they will help me sort out this build :P
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AC? Vacuum pump? Just run the line from the gas intake manifold to your vacuum pump, voila, everything works. The climate control system sees only vacuum, not IM vacuum or pump vacuum.
The radiator width on a stock Fox is fine for clearing the IP. :D
I'm working up a set of brackets to move my alternator over... haven't had much time lately to work on the car, working two jobs and seven days a week.
Not familiar at all with an AAZ engine, but the oil filter mount from the Fox engine moved over from it to a 1.5D with no problems. The oil filter is much bigger which makes it a bit of a tighter clearance in the Fox, but still workable.
The cylinder head pressure sensor clears just fine, it's no bigger than the stock sensor on the Fox and you have inches to spare.
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AC? Vacuum pump? Just run the line from the gas intake manifold to your vacuum pump, voila, everything works. The climate control system sees only vacuum, not IM vacuum or pump vacuum.
uhhh, corect me if I'm wrong but seeing as I run close to 30 psi won't my intake see positive psi as opposed to vaccum? not sure but me thinks... :?
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Not just a Fox,... a Fox wagon yeaah.
I love those, there's one around here that I keep eyeing.
Looking forward to more great info being added to this post.
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AC? Vacuum pump? Just run the line from the gas intake manifold to your vacuum pump, voila, everything works. The climate control system sees only vacuum, not IM vacuum or pump vacuum.
uhhh, corect me if I'm wrong but seeing as I run close to 30 psi won't my intake see positive psi as opposed to vaccum? not sure but me thinks... :?
Line formerly connected to the (gasser) intake manifold, now connected to the vacuum pump. :D
Sorry, wasn't very clear, was I? :oops: I meant that the climate control box can't tell the difference between vac pump vacuum and closed-throttle-plate intake vacuum.
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1- Gauges and tach at the very least, maybe try to fit my MK3 jetta dash in...
2-I'll figure a way to run the a/c with the vaccum pump on my IDI
3-oil filter will be remote mount if the 8v brackets won't fit 8)
4-Battery will be relocated to Trunk :wink:
5- I appreciate your input, all comments are welcomed as they will help me sort out this build :P
1) Gotcha. I've seen a sectioned Corrado dashboard in a Fox, but that's about it. If you're getting rid of the dashboard that's in there and it's in good shape, let me know.
2) Here's the factory A/C setup (http://www.vwot.org/community/modules/Gallery/albums/albuo70/TD_GasIntake.jpg) in a Dasher. The crankshaft runs the A/C compressor, which in turn runs the alternator.
3) I got my AEB flange cheap, because most guys who buy a longitudinal 1.8T swap it into something transverse and don't need the oil filter flange.
4) That kinda limits the cargo area of the wagon, though. FYI: there's a factory cargo area cover available, but it's pretty tough to find. For Turbinepowered: I'm talking about the sensor for a VDO oil pressure gauge. It's a little "can" thing vs. just the 24mm-head stock pressure switch. The stock oil pressure switch clears the battery and battery tray fine.
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If you intend to use the Dasher AC setup and brackets, you will need to cut off the snubber mount that's part of the front of the AC bracket. It's in the wrong place for a Fox's front torque stop. Put the Fox snubber on.
[edit] Oh, and you'll need the whole Dasher AC setup. Brackets, alternator mount, compressor, and very likely the crank pulley. It's all heavy, blocky and that pulley will be a PITA to deal with once it's on the engine and in the car.
Thus why I'm building a bracket to use the Fox pulleys and compressor.
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Power to the Wagon build up, I'll be watching with interest, and with my new found love for diesel, I think I'm scrapping my ideas of a 2.0 gas for a 1.9td after seeing a couple threads about converting the Fox Wagon! A couple shots of where I'm at:
(http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/3749/hpim1859di1.jpg)
(http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/1913/hpim1860cp1.jpg)
The advice for a 5-speed is a good one, if I'm not mistaken, the (86-87) Audi 4000s, just a front wheeler, had the best ratio's over any Fox 5 speed.
Dude, best of luck, lemme know if I can help via Internet!
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The 2P (Which I think is the transmission you're referring to) has some good, tightly spaced gears. Excellent for acceleration, but it's all geared too short to really do well with a diesel.
PSA: 3.45 1.79 1.13 .83 .68
Final Drive 4.11
2P: 3.45 1.94 1.29 .97 .8
Final Drive 4.11
3M: 3.45 1.94 1.29 .91 .73
Final Drive 4.11
The 3M seems a good compromise between the 2P and the PSA, with the 2P's tighter spaced front three gears but longer legged 4th and 5th for better cruise economy.
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volkswagen fox
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Power to the Wagon build up, I'll be watching with interest, and with my new found love for diesel, I think I'm scrapping my ideas of a 2.0 gas for a 1.9td after seeing a couple threads about converting the Fox Wagon! A couple shots of where I'm at:
(http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/3749/hpim1859di1.jpg)
(http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/1913/hpim1860cp1.jpg)
The advice for a 5-speed is a good one, if I'm not mistaken, the (86-87) Audi 4000s, just a front wheeler, had the best ratio's over any Fox 5 speed.
Dude, best of luck, lemme know if I can help via Internet!
yea, save the squares.
audi grille looks oem, i'm sure some audi rims will look good too
vw foxes are getting close to extinction.
nice to see more clean examples out there on the road.
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The 2P (Which I think is the transmission you're referring to) has some good, tightly spaced gears. Excellent for acceleration, but it's all geared too short to really do well with a diesel.
PSA: 3.45 1.79 1.13 .83 .68
Final Drive 4.11
2P: 3.45 1.94 1.29 .97 .8
Final Drive 4.11
3M: 3.45 1.94 1.29 .91 .73
Final Drive 4.11
The 3M seems a good compromise between the 2P and the PSA, with the 2P's tighter spaced front three gears but longer legged 4th and 5th for better cruise economy.
there is also the 2N but i think it was a hydraulic clutch set up... I think I'll leave the tranny for last in this project, I have allot of work to do before worrying about gear ratios :P Have to strip it and do some body repairs to the underside and then fresh paint before tackling any mechanics.
Nice wagon there FoxBoxRacing :lol: just needs to be slammed down aprox 1.5 inches for those rims to really look great ( and also better handelling ) Keep tunning in, I plan to start work on it in a couple of weeks and hope to have it all together before next spring
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Sorry 'bout the big pics :oops: My bad on the tranny, we were setting up the Wagon for drag racing, hence the short gearing on my suggestion... Now it's about economy, AAZ with some tall gearing in 4 n 5 would be prime!
Wire wheel on a grinder, then Rust-Mort with a Windex sprayer srayed from inside out (through and a round the rust holes) are my suggestion to save the bubble back in the paint, then maybe some short hair fiberglass bondo stuff! Paint on the Wagon is 3 years, doing the same to my daily tudor mkii idi Jetta!
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there is also the 2N but i think it was a hydraulic clutch set up... I think I'll leave the tranny for last in this project, I have allot of work to do before worrying about gear ratios :P
Nope, all 014s and 013s use a mechanical clutch. The only transmission that needs a "modification" is the 2P which has 100mm flanges vs. 90mm on all others.
If you're going to have the 4-speed out, you really should upgrade to a 5-speed while you're at it. There's no excuse at that point ;) The tighter gearing and 4.111 (vs. 3.889) final drive helps acceleration. As I recall, I was faster by about a second in 0-100km/h when going from the stock VW Fox 4-speed (PW) to Quantum TD 5-speed (9Q).
I've got a 5M (0.600 5th) in my Dasher attached to the 1.6TD. If you're after the tallest gearing, this is it. The 5M transmission came in the 1.7L Audi 4000s and VW Quantums so it isn't the easiest transmission to find. But even a stock Fox PSA will be a nice upgrade over the PW, and should be easy to find.
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Hows the projekt koming along?
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Still sitting in my driveway :( I have yet to transform my Shed into a Garage first to have a proper place to work on the beastie. Should get going on it sometime before Christmass and hopefully have it dove in time for spring. i'll keep yous posted on progress.
by the way if anyone has an intake mani off a 87-89 fox I'm looking ;)
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o man I was all excited thinking we would see a better update on this project!!!
come-on get to work!!! :lol: :lol:
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I will be following this thread.
IMO the QTD Trans will be your best bet for this conversion...
Quick shots of my wagon...
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k33/kleinbiker1/DSC04352.jpg)
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k33/kleinbiker1/DSC04043.jpg)
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IMO the QTD Trans will be your best bet for this conversion...
what does it come out of :?:
and... you wouldn't happen to have gear ratios would you :lol:
nice wagon by the way! R those BBS rims?
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Second pic fer sure, just as DonK as FoX BoX :lol:
Anyone ever look into coilovers for a WaGoN? Always dreamt of having a 5 lug setup off a 5k, fab some heinous wheel wells to accommodate, maybe add a Q, then a wet dream of a T...
http://www.lunaticfringe.org/vwfox/registry/029.html
Some more inspiration :wink:
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IMO the QTD Trans will be your best bet for this conversion...
what does it come out of :?:
and... you wouldn't happen to have gear ratios would you :lol:
nice wagon by the way! R those BBS rims?
QTD: Quantum Turbo Diesel. Comes in two flavors of the same transmission, the 3M and the 9Q. With these, you get:
1st: 3.455
2nd: 1.944
3rd: 1.286
4th: .909
5th: .730
FD: 4.11
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thanks turbinepowered!
I ran the ratio's thru a simulator and it would seem a bit short for a dailly driver, 115Kph = 3200 Rpm
2M from quantum out of a '81-'82 quantum would do nice... may be hard to find tho :roll:
I'll be running 195/50/15 tires
1st 3.455
2nd 1.700
3rd 1.065
4th .778
5th .600
final 4.111 115Kph = 2600Rpm 5000 Rpm = 220Kph :twisted:
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2M from quantum out of a '81-'82 quantum would do nice... may be hard to find tho :roll:
That's what I've got in my Dasher, attached to a 1.6TD. If you're looking for economy, definitely try to find one of these. Acceleration is good too, definitely better than the stock VW Fox 4-speed. Remember that they came in Audi 4000s too, 4-cyl 1.7L 8v gas (code 2M and 5M).
With the Dasher rather loaded down I achieved 4.4 L/100km at 120 km/h and 3.9L/100km at 110 km/h on B20 (Toronto-Columbus-Toronto).
5000 Rpm = 220Kph
Only 5000 RPM? You need to talk to Giles! :!:
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Only 5000 RPM? You need to talk to Giles!
Haha, I already figured on that! :lol: I'll be running 25+psi thru FMIC so I think I would rather be conservative and not rev the $h!t out of it than run high RPM and grenade my motor.
2M or 5M are my best bets, not many lying around in my neck of the woods :(
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Found this link in another forum
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-Trucks___Audi-Fox-1975-Very-Nice-2nd-Owner_W0QQitemZ290275577151QQddnZCarsQ20Q26Q20TrucksQQddiZ2282QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item290275577151&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A727%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318
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update... kind of...
i've been slowly collecting parts for the engine through the winter and i'm hoping to start putting things together sometime next month.
I have a question however... if I run a compound turbo setup using a K03 and a T3 to run 30-35 psi, how big are the chances of bending a con rod due to low end torque?
and how big will the benefits of running this setup?
engine has all new crank bearings and is on a fresh rebuild. ( will need raceware or arp studs ) engine had 300k km on it before rebuild.
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update... kind of...
i've been slowly collecting parts for the engine through the winter and i'm hoping to start putting things together sometime next month.
I have a question however... if I run a compound turbo setup using a K03 and a T3 to run 30-35 psi, how big are the chances of bending a con rod due to low end torque?
and how big will the benefits of running this setup?
engine has all new crank bearings and is on a fresh rebuild. ( will need raceware or arp studs ) engine had 300k km on it before rebuild.
sounds like you need a girdle :wink: the chances of bending a rod is pretty good with the small turbo. if you're that worried, you could go with PD100 rods + 1.9TD. otherwise, you will need to buy those really expensive ones for nearly a grand. i wonder if the 3 cyl 1.4TDI rods are the same as the 1.6TD ??? that could be a more affordable solution.
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girdle on order, hopefully truckinwagen will be able to follow thru with manufacturing.
plan is for 160-180 whp
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just bought a sweet 87 vw fox two door myself.. paid $ 175 for it.. really clean inside.. has some miner surface rust but no holes.. old man painted it with spray paint which i guess is good since it kept the rust off.. planning on messing with it.. thought about the swap to 1.6td power? i'd like to see more on your project..
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i'd like to see more on your project..
yup... me too ::)
slooow going but it should get done this spring. gotta love the wagon!! ;D
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Figured out how you're going to mount the alternator yet?
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Figured out how you're going to mount the alternator yet?
not yet, that should be a minor detail as a friend of mine is a machinist. all i have to do will be to mock up the alt and he will custom fab the brackets.
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Finally, some Progress!!!! :o ;D *cheers and fanfare*
Started tearing down the donor MK3 jetta, brought a tear to my eye, she had been a good girl...
but progress and evolution cannot be stopped!!
next step is gutting the 'ol gasser from the wagon and prepping the AAZ for the conversion. form my research the hardest part to find WILL be the alt brackets. ( if anyone has a quantum TD B2 platform, i need an alt bracket ;) ) the rest should be fairly straightforward.
now that things are into production, i'll keep you posted!!