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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: monomer on August 21, 2008, 02:39:10 pm
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The engine is a 1.6 TD with a 1.9aaz head. I plan on making 250bhp.
Would ceramic coating my brand new set of pistons be worth it? I was looking at http://swaintech.com/store.asp?pid=10970 for the coating. $45/ea for ceramic tops and low friction skirts.
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if i was aiming for that kind of power... i would get the coating... how ever i am shooting for 100 short of that haha.
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go for it. i doubt you'll be able to make that kind of power without the coating. some have reached about 50 or so shy of that which seems to be the peak... also consider getting a plenum intake & equal length exhaust to balance out the pressure across the head. otherwise you'll most likely blow some HG's.
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If I was shooting for 250Hp I wouldn't begin with a 1.6TD but with a PD150. I think you might be asking too much from that 1.6TD since it originally started out at around 70Hp.
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www.thermaltechcoatings.com
They are who i am using...i am shooting for 150hp on nitrous, and water meth
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www.thermaltechcoatings.com
They are who i am using...i am shooting for 150hp on nitrous, and water meth
big VNT, FMIC w/co2 cooling.
12mm Giles pump.
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250 is SOOO much. 200 is more than impressive. If you come close to 250 I know i'll hear about it but good luck man, that would be absolutely nuts. Remember diesels give massive torque too so HP doesn't always mean everything.
A giles pump, k3/k4, good intercooling, maybe LPG injection into the intake, 3 inch downpipe/exhaust or perhaps manifolds from passengerdiesel and i think you could be VERY close. But that's some serious coin if you got it?
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250 is SOOO much. 200 is more than impressive. If you come close to 250 I know i'll hear about it but good luck man, that would be absolutely nuts. Remember diesels give massive torque too so HP doesn't always mean everything.
A giles pump, k3/k4, good intercooling, maybe LPG injection into the intake, 3 inch downpipe/exhaust or perhaps manifolds from passengerdiesel and i think you could be VERY close. But that's some serious coin if you got it?
no toys until the engine is built (and paid for)
Build sofar:
-1.6 TD pistons
-Arp Mains, Head studs and connecting rod bolts
-1.9AAZ head
-Giles injectors and pump
-Total seal piston rings (full set, not just top)
-VR6 clutch kit
-Short throw shifter & hard bushings
-1.9 metal gasket with holomar sealant.
I'll be running the stock exhaust N/A until above items are paid off. I'll dyno (on a mustang dyno) before and after. Dyno time will be at Speed Industeries in troy, MI.
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I think you will have a ways to go for 250hp.
I would be looking into orings, and a custom head and block with more studs.
Not a big fan of CO2 cooling myself. water meth has a much larger advantage. especailly if you are brave enough to inject preturbo. your air charge will be so much cooler than c02....just me $.02. Also, for 250hp your gunna need to run some big nozzles, or possible lpg. I would be looking at stronger connecting rods and crank.
Regardless, sounds like you are on your way. Check out that place for coating. they are $60 for our pistons set per coatings. get the thermal coating up top and the oil dispersant on the bottom. (120) for the set I am not sure if the skirts are worth it.
I think if your gunna do a set up like that, compound turbos would be SICK!!!!
Another option to your co2 cooling (i am assuming this is through the intercooler) Is to run an expansion bulb for the nitrous in the intercooler just before it is injected to the manifold. this uses the same therory as co2 cooling just with the additional hp.
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actually if you inject CO2 into a water/air intercooler setup (obviously no water in the system) you could really decrease the temps!
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The Dodge Cummins guys are getting 1,200 - 1,500 hp out of these 24v engines that were originally down in the 160 hp range. They boost with turbos that are huge and change the injectors and IP. 109 psi of boost is common !!
So, I think you can get it - but I too would use the 1.9L as a base.
"There is no replacement for displacement" or so the race guys say.
http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/dodge/0808dp_2002_dodge_ram_cummins/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Ram
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Cummins don't use aluminum heads. IF (big if) you get 250 hp, your motor won't be reliable at all IMHO.
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The Dodge Cummins guys are getting 1,200 - 1,500 hp out of these 24v engines that were originally down in the 160 hp range. They boost with turbos that are huge and change the injectors and IP. 109 psi of boost is common !!
So, I think you can get it - but I too would use the 1.9L as a base.
"There is no replacement for displacement" or so the race guys say.
http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/dodge/0808dp_2002_dodge_ram_cummins/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Ram
the 24v cummins common rail is rated at 355hp 610ftlbs
w/ a chip and an intake your looking at nearly 500hp 800+ftlbs
to push 1000+ hp out of these motors your putting in nearly $8000+ into the motor.
Drop $8000 into your 1.6l and i bet it sings a pretty little number too!!!
:twisted:
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Drop $8000 into your 1.6l and i bet it sings a pretty little number too!!!
:twisted:
Let's be reasonable. Those are 6 cylinder motors, so figure on only spending around $5,300 or so for our little 4-potters. :wink:
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I'm an overachiever, what can I say?
Block will get o-ringed. I still have to talk with my machine shop (American Machine, Fraser MI) to see whats do able.
The franken motor was pieced togeather with a bunch of spare parts - and he was making 200hp.
The turbo will be off of a stock cummins 5.9. VNT, could see upwards of 32psi.
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Drop $8000 into your 1.6l and i bet it sings a pretty little number too!!!
:twisted:
the car as it sits has that much parts and work in it....
almost
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I believe Jake, FSPGTD, was making 250+HP if I remember right, but he never found a way to keep the head sealed as it kept lifting at those pressures. I think he tried o-ringing it, copper gaskets, the works at one point or another.
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I believe Jake, FSPGTD, was making 250+HP if I remember right, but he never found a way to keep the head sealed as it kept lifting at those pressures. I think he tried o-ringing it, copper gaskets, the works at one point or another.
I wish he would chime in.
any links for this build?
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You'd have to search his username. He hasn't been on in quite a while
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Drop $8000 into your 1.6l and i bet it sings a pretty little number too!!!
:twisted:
the car as it sits has that much parts and work in it....
almost
I was talking straight motor, and machining time. No labor.
Sounds like a badass ride deserving of 200+hp
Got any pics?
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this is border line lunacy.
I'm struggling to get my IP retimed let a lone 250+ hp. What do you plan to do with that?
I'd suggest not running the motor "upped" at all until you get bigger exhaust + EGT. It's not uncommon to accidentally cook your head and turbo (as im sure you've been told) because of a little extra fuel/boost. I almost did and i haven't done any mods really. Just wastegate/blow off valve + fuel screw/boost pin/govenor mod
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this is border line lunacy.
I'm struggling to get my IP retimed let a lone 250+ hp. What do you plan to do with that?
I'd suggest not running the motor "upped" at all until you get bigger exhaust + EGT. It's not uncommon to accidentally cook your head and turbo (as im sure you've been told) because of a little extra fuel/boost. I almost did and i haven't done any mods really. Just wastegate/blow off valve + fuel screw/boost pin/govenor mod
autocross/road racing.
I'm over building EVERYTHING in hope to keep it togeather.
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W/ 250 hp, its not just the motor your going to have to worry about. your gunna need motor mounts, at least some good new ones. and possible something to keep the motor from torquing hard and tearing itself around.
I would say the three largest problems will be stock cooling system, stock oiling system and EGT's
How are you doing your fueling system? bigger ip i assume? bigger head?
Will our pumps even support than kind of HP?
What did you ever decide to do on the pistons. I should have mine back end of these weeks, I will be sure to report my findings of quality.
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a stock 5.9 turbo ? Are you sure you'll have enough volume from the 1.9L to spool it up? I would think you'd need to put a smaller hot section on it.
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Ditto on the 5.9 turbo. You will have so little gas volume that you might have trouble "getting it up" (so to speak), but in no undertain terms, you will have lag that makes it pretty much useless for autoslalom competition. Also, the 020 will not live at those torque levels.
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W/ 250 hp, its not just the motor your going to have to worry about. your gunna need motor mounts, at least some good new ones. and possible something to keep the motor from torquing hard and tearing itself around.
I would say the three largest problems will be stock cooling system, stock oiling system and EGT's
How are you doing your fueling system? bigger ip i assume? bigger head?
Will our pumps even support than kind of HP?
What did you ever decide to do on the pistons. I should have mine back end of these weeks, I will be sure to report my findings of quality.
-Oil cooler will come off of a Mercedes 300D
-Stock fan system will be replaced completely, Radiator should be good enough.
-Giles pump and injectors
-Delron Bushings (I can turn them myself) along with delron shifter bushings aswell
1.9L head (port/polished) stock turbo exhaust manifold and gasser intake will be used (until I have funds for sheet metal intake and equal length exhaust with cutoff.)
The turbo is a VNT. I may go with a smaller one - depends on availability. TiAl 38mm Wastegate will be used to limit boost. VNT will have a pressure-wastegate setup. VDO EGT probe and gauge, aswell as a 4bar boost gauge (and then oil pressure/temp, and coolant temp)
I'm still looking for a local shop to do the pistons. I'm going to wait until the head gets here, maybe I'll coat everything and be done with it.
If this car wasnt in such nice, rust-free condition, I would have never done all of this. It's a cali car, garaged for 10 years here in MI (honestly, I've never seen another one like it here) engine needed to be rebuilt, so these are all "while I'm here" add-ons....
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I have seen literally melted all four ALH TDI pistons on an engine I built last year (the owner's kid drove the crap out of it before we even had a chance to dial in ANYTHING after initial startup). Believe me, the coatings can't hurt (we are using SwainTech now for the crowns, of course, the stock skirt coatings on PD 150 slugs). If you go anywhere NEAR what you want for power, you will be thermally loading the crown and rings to something near their limit. You might also consider a bigger oil pump and piston cooling nozzles (which is why we have the PD150 pistons...internal oil cooling passages for the piston crown).
You might also re-think the VDO EGT choice. We were anything but impressed with VDO accuracy and response time, and have gone on to much better things (Doniol custom in-cluster gauge & 52mm McNally production stuff).
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I have seen literally melted all four ALH TDI pistons on an engine I built last year (the owner's kid drove the crap out of it before we even had a chance to dial in ANYTHING after initial startup). Believe me, the coatings can't hurt (we are using SwainTech now for the crowns, of course, the stock skirt coatings on PD 150 slugs). If you go anywhere NEAR what you want for power, you will be thermally loading the crown and rings to something near their limit. You might also consider a bigger oil pump and piston cooling nozzles (which is why we have the PD150 pistons...internal oil cooling passages for the piston crown).
You might also re-think the VDO EGT choice. We were anything but impressed with VDO accuracy and response time, and have gone on to much better things (Doniol custom in-cluster gauge & 52mm McNally production stuff).
it is getting oil squirters, newer (high-flow) oil pump.
I'll shop around for the gauges, not important as of yet.
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off the top of my head ... 250hp ........ ???!!!??!!
the tranny is reliable up to around 150 hp .
the rad alone will have to be at least 3 to 4 times bigger than the stock rad .
the lsit of things that would need to be reengineered is almost endless , if 250 hp was possible for more than a few moments .
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off the top of my head ... 250hp ........ ???!!!??!!
the tranny is reliable up to around 150 hp .
the rad alone will have to be at least 3 to 4 times bigger than the stock rad .
the lsit of things that would need to be reengineered is almost endless , if 250 hp was possible for more than a few moments .
250 is doable. I'm gonna go for atleast 150 this season.
anyone have the thread with the oil squirters bookmarked? I need the part #'s and cant find the thread...
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Dave's Franken motor was working well and I don't think it could take a whole lot more abuse.I believe it held together well due to having the huge turbo on it.This keep the torque down at lower rpm and let the HP get up there.My compound turbo setup forced so much air in at lower rpm producing High torque which makes the cyl head flex.I believe high torque (225-275+lb-ft @ 4000 rpm) will cause the IDI head to flex.
A couple years ago my engine held together at 161 whp and 225 lb-ft.
My 2 cents,Comments welcome
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The turbo will be off of a stock cummins 5.9. VNT, could see upwards of 32psi.
Do you have a compressor map for that turbo? I'm sure it can push 32 PSI, but it won't be happy doing it with the low lbs/minute that is the reality of the 1.6, you'll quite likely be pushing that turbo into surge unless boost doesn't come on till way high RPMs.
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The turbo will be off of a stock cummins 5.9. VNT, could see upwards of 32psi.
Do you have a compressor map for that turbo? I'm sure it can push 32 PSI, but it won't be happy doing it with the low lbs/minute that is the reality of the 1.6, you'll quite likely be pushing that turbo into surge unless boost doesn't come on till way high RPMs.
I do not.
whats the recommended turbo then? I dont need 32 psi, but i would like a VNT, as autocross demands quick accel.
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The turbo will be off of a stock cummins 5.9. VNT, could see upwards of 32psi.
Do you have a compressor map for that turbo? I'm sure it can push 32 PSI, but it won't be happy doing it with the low lbs/minute that is the reality of the 1.6, you'll quite likely be pushing that turbo into surge unless boost doesn't come on till way high RPMs.
I do not.
whats the recommended turbo then? I dont need 32 psi, but i would like a VNT, as autocross demands quick accel.
Thats a tough one, with such small displacement you'll be off any compressor map (that I know of) at 28+ PSI. If you want notably more than 30 PSI compound turbos would be the way to go, although the fab work and the sizing is certainly far more complicated.
As I don't know of any compound setup that has run for more than a few weeks (I'm not sure about the details of Andy's setup) I'd be inclined to run 30 PSI with a VNT 2052 fuel it till it smokes a bit and call it a day. Any ponies beyond that will get spendy way quick, and or consume LOTS of your time.
A VNT 2052 will drive a pressure ratio of 3:1 which is the best I know of and it will spool quick on a 1.6. Of course people run their turbos off the compressor map all the time, and they don't blow up instantly, but if you can keep everything in, or close to, its "happy zone" you'll be ahead of the game, IMO.
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if you could find a ball bearing turbo that would really help... but then again $$$
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A VNT 2052 will drive a pressure ratio of 3:1 which is the best I know of and it will spool quick on a 1.6. Of course people run their turbos off the compressor map all the time, and they don't blow up instantly, but if you can keep everything in, or close to, its "happy zone" you'll be ahead of the game, IMO.
next question, -good place to find said VNT?
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A good compound setup IMO for say 25-35 psi is a k24/T3 turbo and the 3.0 T3 merc turbo.Should be enough air for 170-180hp.
The vnt 20 will work well as long as you can control the vanes properly.
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A good compound setup IMO for say 25-35 psi is a k24/T3 turbo and the 3.0 T3 merc turbo.Should be enough air for 170-180hp.
The vnt 20 will work well as long as you can control the vanes properly.
the 3k/AirResearch turbos arnt to great above 20psi.
I do have a 1992 2.5 diesel here with a popped head. Down side - the turbo has 421k miles!