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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: wil892 on July 27, 2008, 07:43:01 am

Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: wil892 on July 27, 2008, 07:43:01 am: I've just taken the head and sump off the GTD engine. First good news is that it must have been rebuilt quite recently because the bores have no ridge at all and I can see all the honing marks on the walls.
Is it normal to be able to move the pistons side to side slightly when they are at the top of the cylinder?

I am a bit more concerned though with the in/out play of the Intermediate Shaft. I have found some bits of metal (see pic) in the oil pan which I can only think were a result of something being wrong with the intermediate shaft. any ideas? The shaft has obviousely been running slightly closer to the block that it should be, meaning the belt didn't sit on it properly. If I pull it out it moves about 1/2cm (1/8 inch) to where it should be.

(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/P7272393.jpg)

thanks
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: wil892 on July 27, 2008, 08:59:32 am: I have removed the int shaft now. This is what i found...

(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/P7272398.jpg)

(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/P7272397.jpg)

(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/P7272400.jpg)

Is the bearing in the block meant to be wider than that?

will
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: jimfoo on July 27, 2008, 08:59:52 am: Almost look like lifter pieces to me.
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: wil892 on July 27, 2008, 09:26:03 am: Bits of metal

(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/P7272404.jpg)
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: Dakotakid on July 27, 2008, 11:32:20 am: I cast a vote for that which is left of the int. sft. bearing.
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: Quantum TD on July 27, 2008, 11:45:28 am: Quote from: "Dakotakid"
I cast a vote for that which is left of the int. sft. bearing.

X2

The bearing can delaminate and it looks just like that. I just did that same job about 2 weeks ago.

It looks like in your case, your belt was overtightened at some point, which led to the outer retaining ring breaking off the intermediate shaft. Was that piece still sitting behind the seal mounting plate, or was it missing altogether? Either way, it looks like the raw, broken edges of the shaft were riding against the bearing and tearing it to shreds. Take a peek at the same thing I just dealt with:

http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8480

You'll know if the pieces are from the bearing if they're soft and snap/bend easily.

In the end, if you had no other running problems, you can just replace that outer bearing, replace the intermediate shaft, and put it all back together. Just make sure you tighten the belt properly so that you don't have to do this job again.
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: buckweat diesel on July 27, 2008, 01:57:38 pm: yes it is iv seen this before lifter top :cry:
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: wil892 on July 27, 2008, 02:34:49 pm: Ok I will get a new bearing and shaft for it. should i check the oil pump because am I right in thinking its the only part of the engine to see unfiltered oil? (thus having bearing metal in)

Im pretty sure its not lifter material, as the engine was running perfectly when taken out of the car. Head is almost new as well. I'll remove the cam and followers though and have a good look, might as well clean the head while i'm at it.

Thanks

Will
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: Quantum TD on July 27, 2008, 03:16:52 pm: Yeah, not a bad idea. If you have the motor out, it might be a good idea to spray out the insides with some brake cleaner too. The particles might have gotten shloshed around the case by the crankshaft. For the most part, the bearing is soft material. The only rigid metal part of it is the outer ring, which is still in it's hole right now.
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: jimfoo on July 27, 2008, 04:23:18 pm: Does it stick to a magnet? No = bearing, yes= something else. If it is lifter, it might have been from a previous repair, but worth checking.
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: fatmobile on July 28, 2008, 12:19:40 am: I have a theory.
A timing belt that is running near the outer edge of the injection pump sprocket goes over the i-shaft pully and runs back toward the block as it gets closer to the crank sprocket,... pushed over by the crank pully.
I think this causes the I-shaft to slam repeatedly into the block,.. since the belt is running over it at an angle.
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: riddleyo on July 28, 2008, 06:56:32 am: Quote from: "wil892"
I have removed the int shaft now. This is what i found...
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/P7272398.jpg)

Your picture confirms that the metal pieces in your oil pan are the outer lip of the intermediate shaft that controls the axial play.

Take a look at my broken intermediate shaft, my lip is partially intact while your lip is completely broken:
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/xedice/VW%2008%20-%20Intermediate%20Shaft/04-CIMG0901.jpg)

Your intermediate shaft lip has broken off. Like others and you have figured out, you will need to replace the intermediate shaft, and check the surface of the intermediate shaft flange (the one that holds the intermediate shaft rubber seals, might as well replace the seals anyway). I'm in pretty much the same boat as you right now man.
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: jimfoo on July 28, 2008, 07:15:02 am: Just how would such large pieces of the IS lip get past the bearing? The pieces HAVE to be something else.
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: zukgod1 on July 28, 2008, 07:39:37 am: I wonder if it's the race on the vac pump side. Pcs of the block maybe?
The radius looks to be to large for it to be a lifter.
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: myke_w on July 28, 2008, 08:10:57 am: Are these pieces able to be picked up with a magnet??
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: wil892 on July 28, 2008, 11:53:37 am: Have just tested the bits with a magnet. The smoother curved bits can be picked up with a magnet, but the rougher mashed up pieces can't.

I have to say I did wonder how the bits from the int shaft got past the bearing, especially as there is no scoring on the bearing its self. Although as to where the whole lip has disappeared to is quite worrying.

I have noticed though that the outer int shaft bearing on mine looks thinner than the one in the thread posted by Quantum TD.

http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8480

(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/P7272400-1.jpg)
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: wil892 on July 28, 2008, 12:01:53 pm: My bad, have just found the lip in the sealing ring in one piece.

Bit worried now. This engine is perfect apart from this mysterious metal!

and BTW whats the 'race on the vac pump side', easy to sort?
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: zukgod1 on July 28, 2008, 12:18:57 pm: I was thinking it could be the area where the bearing is pressed in on the far end of that shaft.

Can you get us a better pic of the smooth surface from one of the pcs?
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: wil892 on July 28, 2008, 12:38:22 pm: Bit confused.
You want a pic of the outer bearing or the one inside the block?
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: zukgod1 on August 03, 2008, 09:08:48 pm: I wanted to see some better pics of the pieces of metal.
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: wil892 on August 04, 2008, 11:16:44 am: Ok, taken a couple more pictures, closer this time. I'm taking the block and head to a good VW specialists to be checked, possibly honed and reringed and then put back together.

(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/1.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/wil892/2.jpg)
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: zukgod1 on August 04, 2008, 11:43:52 am: Wow!

So you have the valve cover off and everything under there is ok? No missing/ mashed lifters?
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: wil892 on August 04, 2008, 12:28:29 pm: No, lifters and cam are fine. Apparently the engine was running absolutely fine before removal.

The oil pickup had a couple of bits in it, other than that just these bits in the pan. I can't say I've had a huge look through the bottom end as I'm a bit afraid to start undoing the bolts in it.
The bits do look like bearings as they have slight wear to the inside of them. But as I said earlier i can pick them up with a magnet.
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: zukgod1 on August 04, 2008, 01:01:18 pm: They look to thick to be pcs of bearing to me but..

I guess you better just tear into it.

Hopefully you find they are left over from a previous issue that has already been addressed.
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: Quantum TD on August 04, 2008, 01:23:53 pm: I've heard stories here in the US, of people taking their transmissions in for service, and having a corrupt mechanic come out with a trans pan full of metal bits to show the customer.

Not saying that's what happened, but it's either that, or someone crunched a lifter on this car at some point, and then never dropped the pan.
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: zukgod1 on August 04, 2008, 01:29:26 pm: These close up pictures do look like lifter parts dont they?

I hope you find nothing and these are from a previous issue already delt with as I mentioned earlier.
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: Baxter on August 04, 2008, 03:10:44 pm: Oil pump drive guide bearing? the non ferrous parts?

Parts of Vac pump?
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: wil892 on August 07, 2008, 02:35:48 pm: I've now pull the camshaft and lifters, and while inspecting the lifters have notices that one is different from the rest. The odd one out has INA stamped on its under-side which the others don't. The shape of the underside is also slightly different to the others.

I'm guessing this might have been the cause of the metal. Three pistons do have very slight 'kissing' marks on them from valves, but none more so than the others.

I said in another post that the head is an exchange unit from VW as it has a stamp on it, but the wierd thing is that the bores on the engine still have all the honing marks to them, leading me to believe the engine has been rebuilt (came out of a car with 175,000 miles). So possibly since rebuild the timing jumped? breaking a lifter, which was then fixed?
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: Quantum TD on August 07, 2008, 09:56:29 pm: Quote from: "wil892"
I've now pull the camshaft and lifters, and while inspecting the lifters have notices that one is different from the rest. The odd one out has INA stamped on its under-side which the others don't. The shape of the underside is also slightly different to the others.

I'm guessing this might have been the cause of the metal. Three pistons do have very slight 'kissing' marks on them from valves, but none more so than the others.

I said in another post that the head is an exchange unit from VW as it has a stamp on it, but the wierd thing is that the bores on the engine still have all the honing marks to them, leading me to believe the engine has been rebuilt (came out of a car with 175,000 miles). So possibly since rebuild the timing jumped? breaking a lifter, which was then fixed?

Sounds like we've solved the issue as to the origins of the metal bits. You still need to address the intermediate shaft. I'd say it's a 99% probability that the metal hunks are from a shattered lifter: likely caused by a piston hitting a valve.
Title: Head and sump off, this is what I find!
Post by: Mark(The Miser)UK on August 09, 2008, 05:21:37 pm: What could have caused the I/S damage?]
My theory is if the driven shaft encounters a binding vaccuum pump then the mesh thread will apply tremendous longitudinal force like screwing in a bolt. A cast iron bolt gathers no moss ...oops is brittle :idea: