VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: ejust on May 09, 2005, 05:48:04 pm
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can you guys set us novices up with info on the different turbos and there characteristics??
To go with that, what down pipe works the best with each? Where do we get a bigger one??
ive got a stock system with a garrett turbo. i would like faster spool up. Would a smaller turbo be better? I know bigger exhaust would help. I put a small "boost leak" in the line from turbo to wastegate. Ive gotten my boost up to 12-13 vs stock 9psi that its been. Is this a bad idea? i think i will make one of those MBC's in the future.
thanks and keep up the great info. When i get brave enuf i want to attempt the govenor mod. Im trying to get a little more low end snap. Im not trying to kill my milage so my mods are small. Economy is still a big factor.
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Garrett GT-15 turbo (or KKK K03) gives really quick spool and has flow headroom to support 20 PSI of boost all the way to redline (don't ask how I know :D ). The K03 was installed in the very latest AAZ turbo-Diesels, and can be adapted into earlier models.
An intercooler would be considered an indispensable complement to a turbo swap.
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would a Ko3S from a gasser 1.8t work on a diesel?
Jay
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would a Ko3S from a gasser 1.8t work on a diesel?
In a word, no. Both the compressor and turbine A/R would be completely out to lunch for a diesel. The only thing they have in common is the bearing cartridge.
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what would be a cheap intercooler to use for a turbo on a A2 Jetta???
Anyone know what the stock garrett was on an A2?
i only need up to 14psi of boost.
i wouldnt feel comfortable going more than that (14psi) so a smaller turbo would work good for me (maybe 12psi tops)
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Then get a Garrett GT-15, and an intercooler you can find from almost any yard for an Audi 5000, Saab 900(0), Ford Thunderbird SVO, etc., etc.
http://www.turbomustangs.com/intercoolers.htm
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even a stock 1.8t IC would be OK I would think, I think it's 6X6X4, so it's kinda small but it's really THICK as far as IC's go and it does a over all good job. Worked great for me with 23PSI all day long, except on 80F+ days when I was on the pedal hard. I'm sure you could find one pretty cheap if you look around on the VW gasser forums like 20vturbo.com or vwvortex.com (personally not a big fan of) and find some one that has an upgraded IC and go from there.
Mits. Starions had a nice stock IC also if you could find one of those.
Jay
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Does anyone make a high flow downpipe/exhaust for 1.6TDs? I haven't seen any around...
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everyone talks about them yet no one ever produces one....hmmm...
i can see why a bigger downpipe would be needed as the stock 1.6L narrows down from turbo to front pipe which makes no sence.
I take it theres no chance for the average guy to get one? bunch of us would like to know if anyone has ideas. thanks
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I would THINK that if you contacted someone like Techtonics Tuning and had a group buy of about 20 people I'm sure that they would fab one up. But you gotta make it worth their while.
I know this has worked before for SEVERAL forums VW and Non-VW, it doesn't hurt to try right?
Jay
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Anyone else interested? What kind of termination would you guys like to see? Junk the toilet bowl and maybe put a flex joint and flange on it, terminating under the car once hit hits horizontal? Maybe a slip joint in the middle to make it easier to add/remove?
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I am hoping to have the design for Downpipes finalized by end of May early June. I am still away with a busted transimission, and have a big contract coming in, all of which are slowing this down. Pricing as of right now is looking to be $150.00 Cdn + shipping. This may change b4 finanlizing. They will be 2.5" mandrel bent, mild steel. If there is enough of a demand I will look at doing a SS version though expect it to be much more expensive. Once we have the initial design I will take custom orders (TD's in other vehicals, different turbo's ect...) I am not looking to make much for a profit on these, I just want to help out the comunity. That being said there may be some waits for Downpipes at certian times of the year, when we are busy with the contracts that keep us in business. As for pics, there are some pics of Mark's "Malone" downpipe which is a beta version of what will be released. Stay tuned 8)
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Sweet! Keep us posted!
I have the puny NA exhaust from my originally NA diesel Jetta with my 1.6TD engine in there, so I'm *really* plugged up...er...I mean my car is... :-)
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So DVST8R, any word on those downpipes? :D
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I just recently got home from a LONG trip, way longer then expected, like 3 weeks longer. Anyway I had to leave my car in alberta, due to unforseen circumstances. As a resualt of being away for so long, I have a mountian of work to catch up on. So the downpipes have been put on hold for a month or so. I have the beta design down, and a bunch of flanges cut, I just need to make a few minor adjustments and setup a jig. If anybody wants to try building there own I will sell the flange seprately PM me for info.
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DVST8R:
I'm interested in your custom downpipe for my '92 Jetta ECOdiesel.
Please post in this thread any progress on the design.
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hey just thought some of you might want to know... I saw a transport truck with a blown turbo on the highway the other day. It looked as if the turbo exploded and created a huge fire! Keep those EGT's down!!! lol
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I've been working on a bigger turbo output pipe.
Playing with a couple pieces of 2 1/2" O.D., 316L stainless with about 1/8" walls.
Salvaged from the Kraft plant so Jello pudding used to flow through it, ha.
(http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/7060/tdoutpipe3xh.th.jpg) (http://img341.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tdoutpipe3xh.jpg)
It took a couple 90s to make it.
(http://img313.imageshack.us/img313/5809/tdoutpipe49ya.th.jpg) (http://img313.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tdoutpipe49ya.jpg)
I still need to shine up some of the rough areas.
(http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/261/tdoutpipe37mi.th.jpg) (http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tdoutpipe37mi.jpg)
(http://img323.imageshack.us/img323/7562/tdoutpipe15uk.th.jpg) (http://img323.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tdoutpipe15uk.jpg)
I like the toilet bowl setup because it doesn't take up much space. It will also last longer than most of the flex joints. It's not something I can buy and it takes alot of time to make.
I'll be fabricating another one for the '84 GTD eventually so let me know any ideas you have that might help make the next one better.
I've got 2 1/2" pipe all the way to the back on my '91 Golf, including the resonator. Just have one stretch left to make ... from the resonator to this output pipe.
It's been in the air for awhile. It might be back on the ground and running around by next weekend.
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A dude at the dutch vwcaddyforum has made his own DP a few months ago and has good results with it.. and he's going to fix one for me in the coming weeks:
(http://images5.theimagehosting.com/IMAGE0001.JPG.3.JPG)
(http://images5.theimagehosting.com/IMAGE0003.JPG.2.JPG)
70mm internal 8)
I'm going to have it electrolytical zinccoated to keep it shiny and have it still dissipate heat quickly.
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That's freakin' gorgeous, Maarten! :D
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That does look good.
Is that one for a Rabbit?
No way I could have made mine that long and still had it connect to the downpipe.
My '91 Golf exhaust exits above the steering rack.
The Rabbit will have much more room for curves.
I got my downpipe built today so my exhaust is finished ... until the EGT setup arrives.
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It's for my rabbit pickup.. The cars exhaust needs to be adapted to the DP but it still uses the same joint as the original system. But this design has a minor flaw, one rod of the gearmechanism touches the DP so the dude who made this DP had to create a dent in the dipe. Since I'm going to use a cabletranny I should be fine with the clearing.
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[shudder] toilet bowl [/shudder]
I always get the willies when I open up those clamps. I'd choose a section of flex pipe and some bolts any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Working on a car exhaust is just NOT worth taking a finger or two off.
I feel especially bad for the VW mechanics. I hope they get good disability insurance.
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I figure if the woven stainless flex joints are durable unough for Toyota to install on the Camry it's good enough for my TD's. :D
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I feel especially bad for the VW mechanics. I hope they get good disability insurance.
They have a special tool for it..
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Impressive looking downpipes folks. I am impressed with those high quality OEM-style ball and socket joints. And I also like fatmobile's provision for support bracket, and Maarten's very smooth tubing curves combined with quite nicely sized (70mm = 2 3/4"!) diameter tubing.
FWIW, I have developed a technique of removing the OEM ball and socket joint quickly and safely, to the point that it is now the easiest type of exhaust joint for me to remove. If you are complaining about the difficulty of removing the OEM ball and socket type joint, consider that if it were a convoluted tubing type flex joint, you wouldn't be able to separate it at all!
IMO, there is no "one size fits all" of flex joints, each has it's pros and cons. The design of the OEM ball and socket joint, with austenitic stainless lower half and a replaceable gasket is a very good one though.
Pros and cons of the joints
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ball and socket joint:
+ can absorb torsional vibrations
- cannot absorb changes in length
+ allows a large range of motion from a compact overall length
- joint is wider and the springs stick out to the sides
+ highly durable. Over-flexing usually does not result in damage to the joint.
- replaceable gasket in the high quality OEM joint
+ can be easily separated for easy servincing
convoluted tubing flex joint:
+ can conform to changes in length
- cannot absorb torsional vibrations
- relatively fragile. Without stainless braiding, overflex can damage the joint.
- Difficult/expensive to replace if damaged (welded in)
- needs a relatively long length of tubing to get a large range of motion
+ sleek and narrow - does not have springs sticking out the sides
- cannot be separated for servicing - slip joint is required.
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Pros and cons of the joints
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ball and socket joint:
+ can absorb torsional vibrations
- cannot absorb changes in length
+ allows a large range of motion from a compact overall length
- joint is wider and the springs stick out to the sides
+ highly durable. Over-flexing usually does not result in damage to the joint.
- replaceable gasket in the high quality OEM joint
+ can be easily separated for easy servincing
"+ can be easily separated for easy servincing" Depends on your point of view. I consider a slip joint much easier for removal/install.
-Requires expensive special tool to remove, or a cheap tool and some risk
convoluted tubing flex joint:
+ can conform to changes in length
- cannot absorb torsional vibrations
- relatively fragile. Without stainless braiding, overflex can damage the joint.
- Difficult/expensive to replace if damaged (welded in)
- needs a relatively long length of tubing to get a large range of motion
+ sleek and narrow - does not have springs sticking out the sides
- cannot be separated for servicing - slip joint is required.
"convoluted?"
+Uses standard nuts/bolts.
+Flex joint can be seperated from bolting location - can be put in straight area under car while just bolts can be placed in difficult locations.
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You could always just weld a flange to the end of the flex joint so you can remove the whole downpipe. Me, i don't particularly like the toilet bowl. I haven't made a new downpipe for my diesel yet but here's the one on my gas Rabbit.
(http://home.comcast.net/~vwmikelvw/pictures/dp-small.jpg)
It's 2.5"
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Man I wish I had the fabrication resources to make a DP/exhaust. I would have done it months ago! My 1.6TD is choking on a 1.6NA exhaust which is somewhere around 1 5/8"! Not to mention shedding that toilet bowl would be worth the effort in itself :-)
Ray
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We got the downpipe made Sunday. I've been doing the cutting and Jason is on the tig welder. He's better at pipe bending and isn't certified welder yet so this practice has been good for him. Seems like every time I let him know I'm ready for some more welding, he jumps on right on it. Bunch of screaming little girls at his daughter's birthday party might have had something to do with that :lol:. We got the downpipe done Sunday:
(http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/3593/tddownpipes8ih.th.jpg) (http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tddownpipes8ih.jpg)
That old pipe looks so small sitting next to it ... and not near as perty.
I didn't use any hose clamps on the exhaust and the tailpipe keeps sliding off ... I don't want the nice ends to get all bent up so I just bid on a couple of these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&category=33634&item=7989188263&sspagename=WDVW
I switched to a Garret that I had laying around and it might partly be the bigger exhaust but I can even hear the turbo during idle now. Someone mentioned they noticed this difference between the Garret and KKK.
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Fatmobile: Great looking work! Let us know how the wide clamps work out. Also, I've found that just switching to a tubular upper downpipe instead of the stock cast iron piece tends to let through extra turbine whine sounds.
PS - you guys with toilet bowl issues need one of these...
(http://home.comcast.net/~vwgtd/clamp_remover.jpg)
It was made by taking an old monkey wrench to a bench grinder. Works great! :)
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Here's a picture of it on the car:
(http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/3581/tdoutpipeincar8qk.th.jpg) (http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tdoutpipeincar8qk.jpg)
I was wondering what to do about a heat shield and remembered Jakes VNT post and the exhaust wrap he used. Quick and easy.
I'll have to pull everything to install the EGT setup when it gets here. Would be a good time to clean up that weld.
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Looks like a nice downpipe... I had thought about using that header wrap as well, but I did some reading and found out that a number of people have found that it can trap moisture/road grime and actually make the dp /manifold deteriorate sooner.
Anyone else had this experience? Maybe this only applies if the car is driven in the snow / salt / rain...
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The wrap is a kind of cloth so that is a possibility... besides that I think its better not to use wrap cause more heat is captured near the turbo!
After I recieve my DP it is going to have a zinccoating (electrolytic process) so that shouldn't rust anymore and it still can radiate heat.
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Zinc coating, eh? Is that comparable to ceramic coating or Jet-hot coating that's a lot of people use for this type of thing?
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I was thinking the wrap could trap moisture and cause some corrosion but since I used 316L stainless, that shouldn't be a problem. The L stands for low iron, it's for the food industry and is built not to rust.
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Zinc coating, eh? Is that comparable to ceramic coating or Jet-hot coating that's a lot of people use for this type of thing?
The metal is coated with zinc in an electrolytic process.. first it is cleaned and then put into a acidic bath with zincballs that are under a heavy current (metal to be coated is the other polarity) just like chrome.
My neighboar works in a factory where they do that, he assured me that the heat of engineexhaust is no problem (dunno about blue coloration like chrome does under heat)
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Fatmobile: Great looking work! Let us know how the wide clamps work out. Also, I've found that just switching to a tubular upper downpipe instead of the stock cast iron piece tends to let through extra turbine whine sounds.
PS - you guys with toilet bowl issues need one of these...
(http://home.comcast.net/~vwgtd/clamp_remover.jpg)
It was made by taking an old monkey wrench to a bench grinder. Works great! :)
That looks great, but how do you turn it to open all that tension on the spring clamps? I wouldn't think you could turn it with your fingers as much pressure those clamps put out but I could be wrong.
I also got a down pipe in the works. I copied the shape of the 1995 1.9 down pipe. I used a 2.5" tube. The turbo flange I had a friend cut out for me on a CNC machine, nice work those things put out. :D
I'm hoping to get it put in this coming week. I can snap some pictures but don't have anyway of posting them.
"more at eleven"
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You can use vice-grips or simple pliers to expand the monkey wrench when there is a spring on it, if you really need to. Collapsing a spring that is installed on the tool is significantly easier. But I try and avoid doing any of that with my latest downpipe removal and install technique, IE: I no longer use the tool to expand or collapse the spring at all. Instead, I use the rocking motion of the balljoint (by applying leverage by rocking the downpipe) to do all the spring expanding and relaxing... It is soooo much easier that way, and actually kind of fun to do!
In a nutshell, my process of removing my downpipe goes as follows: Rock downpipe fully to one side with both hands, then hold it there with one hand. With other hand, insert expanded tool into holes drilled into the expanded spring. Then relax the downpipe and rock it to the opposite direction. The tool+spring will be loose and can be removed, sometimes will fall right off. Leave the expanded spring in the tool - just set them aside together for installation later.
To remove the second spring, I rock downpipe to the opposite side. Without the first spring, this usually fully relaxes the second spring. It it quite easy to remove at that point, sometimes falling right off.
Installation is reverse of removal. So in summary, I always try and use the rocking motion of the balljoint by applying leverage through the downpipe to expand and relax the springs.
PS - you should sign up for imagestation and show us your downpipe when it's completed!
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I'm not possitive, but my understanding is that zinc coatings, when heated give of toxic fumes. Anyone else hear this before? I thought about using EMT conduit for exhaust pipe, but was warned against this for that reason. :?
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I don;t know about that but I don't think that the zinc will give of fumes.. it is done with the same electrolytic process as chrome, so no chemicals stay on the coating afterwards. I'm going to verify that when my neighboar ss back from his holiday :)
Small change in in plans: I sold my 1.6TD and bought a 1.9TD AAZ engine from a Golf Mk3. Does the DP that is being fabricated for me fit the different engine/turbo?
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The downpipe a friend of mine made for me needs to be tweaked. Didn't quite fit right. But I can say this much. I have the ECO and the cat on that must be the original. Over the past few days it was loosing power. I figured the cat was getting stopped up due to the fact that I put the LDA on my pump and now it adds way more fuel than in stock form. Today it all came out in the light. I took my cat off to put the new downpipe on which didn't fit, so I just stuck the old downpipe and toilet bowl flange back on minus the cat. Had the local muffler shop stick on a 2.5 inch system from the old flange back. WOW what a difference and that is still with the restrictive downpipe. Before my boost would max out at 9 psi, even after I adjusted it. Now my boost gage snaps to 12 psi quick. So much more power and ZING!!!!! It is amazing what opening up the exhaust on these does for performance. Can't wait to get that 2.5 inch downpipe on now. I read it on here all the time about opening up the exhaust, all I can say is if you can, due it. Pictures to come as I get things set and it all fits correctly.
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2.5" better than 3.0" exhaust, if I recall somebody's experienced. One of them racer folks, methinks. Something about backpressure, I assume?
-Josh
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PS - you guys with toilet bowl issues need one of these...
I fabricated a cheap-ass tool from an exhaustclamp:
(http://www.morninglight.nl/a3/klem.jpg)
works pretty nice, for extra safety I welded two bumps on either side next to the c-clamp on the bottom part, so it can never slide off.
My downpipe is finished:
(http://www.morninglight.nl/a3/downpipe1.jpg)
:lol:
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2.5" better than 3.0" exhaust, if I recall somebody's experienced. One of them racer folks, methinks. Something about backpressure, I assume?
-Josh
I don't remember hearing that... all testing I've ever tried myself or heard of indicates with these turbo diesel motors, a bigger exhaust is better.
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Why would the turbo need backpressure? just see it as a big fan that you blow onto, does it spin faster when you block the airflow behind the fan?
I don't think so.
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(http://www.morninglight.nl/a3/downpipe1.jpg)
Nice one mate !!!.. Can't wait till mine is finished.. :D :D
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It's the same principal as turbo gas motors. I have a turbo 1.8L miata and a 2.5" is better than a 3.0". The reason it's better isn't because it makes more power - it's because you don't get any power gain going to 3.0. So the 2.5 is the same power, plus it's cheaper to make, it's easier to fit and less likely to bang on things.
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With a little modification the KKK K24 with DP fits onto intakemanifold, tight but it fits :D
(http://morninglight.demon.nl/a3/k24t1.jpg)
(http://morninglight.demon.nl/a3/k24t2.jpg)
Clearance for the gearmechanism is ok too but I need to wait a few days for the oilretour adapter to arrive.. So tomorrow I can go on with welding a custom exhaust (60mm, no silencers) and I hope to fly.. euh drive this weekend 8)