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Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: tomlaudato on May 31, 2008, 05:18:11 pm
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HI new member to this forum name is tom laudato in california usa
I am building a home built experimental airplane and want to put a diesel engine in this airplane.....i need 125 hp or so and know the engine weight is going to be about 100 lbs more when the cloud clears.....i can accept that..
I have decided i want to have the basic diesel engine with no electronics of any kind only the turbo and injector pump....keeping it as simple as i can for reliability.....
So far i have been advised that i should be looking for a 1Z or AHU engine and an injector pump from the AAZ engine and the turbo from either engine can be adapted by some magic.....
Can you guys with experience tell me if this is the right direction and what year cars/models would i be looking for to get these parts.....
I also would greatly appreciate any advice where to get these engine..
is there a car running this type of configuration where i can just buy the car and rebuild the engine
Thanks in advance for any and all help tom....
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this is no where near as simple as it seems.
To begin with, the 1Z/AHU is just another VE pump TDI, and it wouldn't matter if you used that or the ALH ('99-'03). They are computer controlled engines - but ones that can easily have the pump converted to purely mechanical control. While later engines are MUCH more powerful, they also suffer from being usuitable for mechanical control.
It doesn't matter what you do with the turbocharger, since your application is essentially "constant speed" and you don't need the VNT or even a wastegate - just size the turbo to your need and let it rip. Also, due to altitude considerations, you want a lot more compressor than the puny sea level street things want.
Then there is the BIG issue: what are you going to do for prop drive (both speeds and thrust loads)???? You can't just hang a prop on the end of a TDI crank and expect it to: a) live, or b) make any power. While the 1Z 1.9 TDI peaks torque at 2,000 rpm, it makes a dismal 55 HP. A 503 Rotax will blow it out of the water for performance. By the time you get a drive on a TDI to let it run to its 4,000 rpm power peak (90 HP, but that can easily be built up to 150) you can kiss any idea of +100 lbs goodbye and start thinking of +200 (seriously)
IF I were to really want a diesel light aircraft engine, I could only reccomend that you look for a used or runout Theilert 1.7 (135 HP). If you think you can develop a VW installation for less money than that, you really have a few nasty surprises coming. Not sure if the Delta Hawk guys are in production or not, but you need to look around at what IS being done first.
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In order to get the hp out of one of these engines i would need to run it at a high speed then needing to reduce speed at the prop thus the much added weight.....a lycoming gas engine at 125 hp is pushing 275 lbs and i thought i could get similar hp by the added weight of 100 lb but you think it would be closer to 200 lbs more thanks for the info tom
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After a brief Altavista search using "Diesel+aicraft+engine" we find Delta Hawk.
http://www.deltahawkengines.com/
Good luck.
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Here is the price according to there web site might be a little steep considering not all are rich homebuilders fore sure i am not
and still looking to ssee if it is possible to have an alternative to a gas engine.....I happen to live near a us border and diesel is available at less than us prices...
DH160A4/V4/R4
DH180A4/V4/R4 160 -180 HP non-certified aviation inverted/upright/vertical shaft V-4 $29,000
DH200A4/V4/R4 200 HP non-certified aviation inverted/upright/vertical shaft V-4 $32,500
thanks again for the info and help tom
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I would figure 125 hp from a 1.9 wouldn't be hard at all, especially a TDI, since you are probably talking crank HP, which is greater than BHP. I figure I was getting somewhere around 110 crank hp out of my AAZ, and at least that out of my M-TDI, running 15-18 lbs boost and only a 10 mm head.
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I heard diesel engines have too hard of power pulses and the prop can't take it. Unless whatever prop speed reduction you use could soak up the pulses without breaking. I've thought of doing the same thing.....vw diesel in an airplane. I don't like timing belts on an airplane though. Good luck
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one other serious issue to consider is your fuel system. What if you loose your prime when banking. Unlike a gas, that may sputter, but keep going, the diesel will sputter and stop. Then you will have to crawl out of your cockpit and purge the lines, while you are crashing. :shock: Were you planning on using some sort of air free bladder system? And an application like this, I would not use an AAZ pump. I would use a freshly built, properly built mTDI pump.
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I am searching for those that have knowledge of all the diesel vw engines
that might work...... i am fully aware of weight reduced carrying capacity
and range but keep coming back to the reality that gasoline isnever going to return to any reasonable price...... logic tells you that why would any oil producing nation every increase production when reducing it as necessary will keep high prices to all of them....our own oil is stuck with those that want to stop. suing it.....If i want to fly and fly with reasonable fuel costs then an alternative would be a wonderful thing....As i mentioned in an earlier post i live near a border of another country where diesel is sold at a very good price....they have found new reserves and there people riot in the streets when the government owned oil tries to raise prices....
If a plane is built that will accept what the weight of the diesel conversion would be then what ever allowable load capacity is left is what it will be....
if the range is reduced then that is what it will be also.
the questions i am asking is
what engine components would work best taking into consideration
keeping it as simple as possible non electronics
keeping it as light as possible
Please understand i do appreciate any and all information positive and negative and that is why i have posted this desire here where many seem to have the knowledge and experience so that one would be able to make an intelligent decision as to try or not...
tom laudato not giving up till all avenues are exhausted..
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one other serious issue to consider is your fuel system. What if you loose your prime when banking. Unlike a gas, that may sputter, but keep going, the diesel will sputter and stop. Then you will have to crawl out of your cockpit and purge the lines, while you are crashing. :shock: Were you planning on using some sort of air free bladder system? And an application like this, I would not use an AAZ pump. I would use a freshly built, properly built mTDI pump.
with a decent sized lift pump feeding into the injection pump , loosing the engines prime is a non issue .
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I am searching for those that have knowledge of all the diesel vw engines
that might work...... i am fully aware of weight reduced carrying capacity
and range but keep coming back to the reality that gasoline isnever going to return to any reasonable price...... logic tells you that why would any oil producing nation every increase production when reducing it as necessary will keep high prices to all of them....our own oil is stuck with those that want to stop. suing it.....If i want to fly and fly with reasonable fuel costs then an alternative would be a wonderful thing....As i mentioned in an earlier post i live near a border of another country where diesel is sold at a very good price....they have found new reserves and there people riot in the streets when the government owned oil tries to raise prices....
If a plane is built that will accept what the weight of the diesel conversion would be then what ever allowable load capacity is left is what it will be....
if the range is reduced then that is what it will be also.
the questions i am asking is
what engine components would work best taking into consideration
keeping it as simple as possible non electronics
keeping it as light as possible
Please understand i do appreciate any and all information positive and negative and that is why i have posted this desire here where many seem to have the knowledge and experience so that one would be able to make an intelligent decision as to try or not...
tom laudato not giving up till all avenues are exhausted..
a guy i work with is a pilot and we have been playing with this idea around a bit .
what i'd be thinking of , is a 1.6 turbo , with head studs and main studs , aaz metal headgasket .
maybe a set of compund turbo's ...... maybe a k26 off of a mercede's feeding into the stock vw k24 , to help keep a decent amount of boost at altitude .
the to offset the power pulses , run the 1.6 at a higher rpm than one would run one of the larger engines .
maybe a 1.9 idi camplate in the 1.6 pump .... maybe even mercedes nozels on the injectors .
i left a bunch out ... but this should get the wheels turning .
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you wouldn't really need to worry about the crank sprocket issue at least :lol:
definitely run a TDI engine as the lower CR will definitely help at higher altitudes, and reduce the so called diesel 'pulses'. i personally would use a 3 cyl TDI engine for the job, and have it programmed to run high boost & squeeze out the needed power everywhich way i could. with sensors etc the engine will run at its peak efficiency, and be able to run very smooth. the older IDI's are way too affected by temperature and moisture.
the timing belt issue is definitely a good point. i guess one would need stricter guidelines on timing belt changes? and no cheap parts? i wonder if the belt would last longer due to no stop and go flying :lol:
with all that said, i would also look into getting one of those airplane parachutes just in case... as you never really know :wink:
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with a decent sized lift pump feeding into the injection pump , loosing the engines prime is a non issue .
How is it a non issue? If you pull air, you pull air, wether your lift pump is big or small. Air goes down line to IP, once in IP the problems begin. What am I missing here?
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with a decent sized lift pump feeding into the injection pump , loosing the engines prime is a non issue .
How is it a non issue? If you pull air, you pull air, wether your lift pump is big or small. Air goes down line to IP, once in IP the problems begin. What am I missing here?
how does the fuel system in a gasoline , fuel injected engine work ?
if your going to get air in the fuel system in a diesel system , the same system with produce air in a gas system .
the bigest thing is putting in a decent sized lift pump that greatly exceeds the engines demands , and if air gets in the system, the lift is able to " burp " out the air .......
there are more than a few diesel powered planes out there .......
and as i said it's a non issue , unless your basicly sticking a prop onto a bunch of stock vw parts .... then your just asking for evolution to take place .
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how does the fuel system in a gasoline , fuel injected engine work ?
if your going to get air in the fuel system in a diesel system , the same system with produce air in a gas system .
the bigest thing is putting in a decent sized lift pump that greatly exceeds the engines demands , and if air gets in the system, the lift is able to " burp " out the air .......
there are more than a few diesel powered planes out there .......
and as i said it's a non issue , unless your basicly sticking a prop onto a bunch of stock vw parts .... then your just asking for evolution to take place .
what does a gas fuel injection system have to do with a diesel fuel injected system? nothing. Air in a gas system purges out. Air in a diesel system does not purge out. All your fuel in a diesel system passes through the injector pump. Once in the pump, it will end up in the injector lines. If it gets in the injector lines then fuel will not open the injector. Engine stops running till lines are physically purged. And yes, I do know there are more than a few diesel powered planes out there. And I am sure it is "non issue" if the right set-up is used. All I am trying to do is point out to somebody who may or may not know much about diesels and the seriousness of getting air your fuel system. The idea of simply putting a larger lift pump in your tank to solve this problem ..hmm
What are they actually using for a fuel storage and delivery system?
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with a decent sized lift pump feeding into the injection pump , loosing the engines prime is a non issue .
How is it a non issue? If you pull air, you pull air, wether your lift pump is big or small. Air goes down line to IP, once in IP the problems begin. What am I missing here?
air gets sucked into the system via a vacuum. when you present positive pressure, how does air get sucked into the system? obviously the fuel pump doesn't send pressurized air through the system??? (lift pump isn't an air pump)
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air gets sucked into the system via a vacuum. when you present positive pressure, how does air get sucked into the system? obviously the fuel pump doesn't send pressurized air through the system??? (lift pump isn't an air pump)
The positive pressure is in the fuel line, yes. I am not talking about sucking air through some joint in the fuel line or in some other magic location. I am refering to the fuel pump pick-up (in the fuel tank) getting exposed to air do to fuel tank slosh. It will injest a burb of air (or air entrianed diesel) even thought it is not an air pump. You can move air and fuel through the fuel line to the fuel pump. The air travels in the line with the fuel. BTW - the air would be at the exact same pressure as the fuel sorounding it. Have you never lost fuel prime from a steep incline and low fuel level? It does not matter weather you have an electric inline or not. All the inline pump does is help you purge the system using the same old fashion way but much faster.
Anyways, I will say it again, I simply brought this up to make sure the original poster understood the importance of not loosing prime in a diesel engine. I have also included short link to a basic airplane fuel tank systems Q&A that discusses a few options. There are systems that will work 100% of the time. For a diesel application, personally, I would not do anything short of a bladder system (as I mentioned earlier).
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/eng99/eng99417.htm.
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again i'll say this ...
the exact same system used to remove air in a gasoline injected aviation fuel system can and will work in a diesel aviation system .
and btw any air that does make it to the injection pump , is easily burped out by the injection pump it's self ..... don't believe me ... take one apart and look at it closely .
you have to dam near starve a ve pump for fuel before it starts to push air .
but again it comes down to the lift pump and how it is set up .
as long as the lift pump is pushing a decent volume of postive pressure fuel to the injection pump there is no issue , even if that fuel is mixed with air bubbles .
but there is a slim chance of that even happening with a proper fuel system / tank up stream of the lift pump .
and i apologise to tomlaudato for messing up his thread
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this is what i am hoping for more info to make an informed judgment
the more discussion on any and all of he places where trouble might surface is welcome please anyone jump in and help with any thoughts
tom laudato
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I believe who says the VE pump is a "simple system" has never opened or seriously messed with one.
gasoline MPI electronic system can be 10 times more simple and reliable!
two injectors for cylinder, each bank with its own fuel rail, filters, pumps and tanks.
a main ECU and a failsafe one that has its own battery.
thats why a lot of diesel systems can't be aviation certified, to introduce some redundancy one had to fit a second injector in there somewhere. (or a way to make sure a single one could not compromise the engine in any way)
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what i'd be thinking of , is a 1.6 turbo , with head studs and main studs , aaz metal headgasket .
maybe a set of compund turbo's ...... maybe a k26 off of a mercede's feeding into the stock vw k24 , to help keep a decent amount of boost at altitude .
the to offset the power pulses , run the 1.6 at a higher rpm than one would run one of the larger engines .
maybe a 1.9 idi camplate in the 1.6 pump .... maybe even mercedes nozels on the injectors .
i left a bunch out ... but this should get the wheels turning .
I will leave the other topic alone now. I am intrigued by your idea of using a 1.6TD with mods. Why would you go that route vs. a 1.9TDI? You mention running it a higher RPM. In fan/propellor/pump applications HP is related to the cube of the speed (RPM). So to run a bit faster in RPM, you need a huge amount more HP. Are you suggesting a smaller prop to compensate?
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I don't believe the air in fuel would be a problem. I ran my rabbit out of diesel one time. To get it going I only bled two injectors, the other two self bled. I think bleeding 'em only saves the starter some cranking.
Also, as soon as you lose fuel to the pump you'll know because your timing advance will fail due to lack of internal pressure, and you will lose power. But if you can keep it windmilling I think it'll fire up again.
On a normal airplane the prop will windmill so you wouldn't need to crank it. You actually need to slow to a stall to stop the prop. But the diesel is harder to turn over plus the prop speed reduction would make it harder so it might be a problem.
My two cents.
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in that case just pitch the nose forward... you'll surely get that diesel goin :lol:
one other suggestion to eliminate all those problems would be to create positive pressure inside the fuel tank. that way the fuel is 'pushed' through the system
a two tank system would be nice
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I know that some diesel's have a mechanical on/off switch, eliminating the 12v start stop solenoid. I'm not sure if that modification is available for the Bosch VE pumps.
Does a turbocharged engine make sense without a variable pitched prop?
Also, the 1.6 diesel engine had a nice large airplane looking thrust bearing. The TDI's only have very small banana looking thrust bearings. I hope you aren't planning on bolting the prop right onto the TDI's flywheel... How much power can you reliably expect at 3200 RPM with the 1.9 TDI engine anyway?
I know you can put a mechanical stop on the VE44's used in the Cummins 5.9/3.9, I think the same would apply to the VW TD's. The pumps looks very similar side by side.
Is the thrust bearing in any of the VW TD's or TDI up to this useage? How many pounds of thrust are we talking about? All pulling on the crank. Perhaps mounting the prop on a jackshaft with a proper thrust bearing would be wise. There would be no thrust on the crank then. Unfortunatley, with the price of extra weight.