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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: subsonic on May 24, 2008, 09:10:02 am
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Went to install my rebuilt 1.6 head on the old engine this morning. Nice suprise, All the bolts were missing fron the bracket that attaches to the block and fuel injection pump except the one on the far right. Bolt on the bottom of the pump was missing as well. That might have something to do it running rough in the past.
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Glad(but not) to hear I'm not the only one who had that problem. At least you still had one left.
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I thought it was caused by the alt belt slap wearing a hole through the cover and rubbing the belt, causing it to wear thin and let go. Perhaps this had something to do with it.
Anyone else lost bolts from this bracket?
I remember reading something on here about lifting up on one end of the bracket as you tighten it. Ring a bell with anyone?
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Google "pump bracket bending" its a lot faster then using the search funtion here.
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Made some progress today. Got the IP off. Removed the bracket and cleaned it up. Ran a tap down all the bolt holes and cleaned out the garbage. Reinstalled the bracket. Got the intake manifold and airbox installed on the head. Exhaust manifold is on as well. Found out I am missing one nut for the exhaust manifold. Anyone know what size it is off of the top of there head? Glow plugs installed. Will install the new inj. heat shields and injectors in a bit. Will position the cam correctly, and call it good for a few hours. Gonna shower up and spend some time with the family instead of yelling " No, that is all greasy! stop playing with it!"
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Installed the head. Keeping the HG from sliding around was a pain in ass! With the manifolds all attached I couldnt come straight down, but had to angle the head in and then adjust it into place. Damn thing kept moving. I said the hell with it and broke out the arp head studs. I put 4 in to hold the gasket in place. What a smart guy I am. No luck. Couldnt angle the head in with out the air box hitting the back wall. Grrrr....
Pull the head studs. Put the head back in for the 4th time, get one bolt in, wiggle, adjust, get in another wiggle adjust etc.... all done. torqued to 44lbs and a additional 180 degrees. Installed glow plug connections, way easier with no injection pump in the way. I am going to wait on the injectors until I get the timing belt done. Hope to get on all new belts tomorrow, timing belt, and all the pulleys. Injection pump will go on and I will be learning as I go how to time this beast. Having the unit actually secure might just make a difference. Need to re-install the dipstick tube as well. O-ring around the tube where it sits in the block had gone to hell. Thing is going to leak like crazy unless I can get something similar in there. Ideas?
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silicon paste works fine in place of the o-ring, thats what I did when mine crapped out.
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I have most of the engine put back together. When I put the timing belt tensioner back on, I notice that it is making contact / scraping against the metal backer plate. Is there supposed to be a spacer or something? The metal plate between the head and the tensioner does not appear to be deformed or anything, what gives?
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I pursuaded it back a little further with a hammer. Spins free now. Here is my new problem. If you do not have the special vw tool to insert into the two tiny holes on the timing belt tensioner, how do you set the tension correctly?
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I used 2 small drill bits with the closed end of a 10mm box wrench over one and rest the side of the wrench against the other.
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That worked. Belts done. I ended up turning it over by hand 3-4 times. The T-belt moved from the center of the IP pulley to right on the outer edge, but no further. I will leave the cover off for a bit to see if it tracks true. Broke out my new timing kit from germany. Got it mounted on the pump, but had to head on in to work. When the direction say 2.5 of preload, do the mean just push it in untill the indicator makes 2 1/2 revolutions? Ayone know if there is a particular sweet spot for the 1.6NA?
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Yes, 2.5 revs, though the exact amount isn't important, just that it is always in contact with the plunger. Have too little and the plunger could still be receding but the gauge won't show it, then the timing would be off.
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all done. torqued to 44lbs and a additional 180 degrees.
Am I reading that correctly?
You installed the ARP head studs then torqued to 44lbs then a additional 180 deg?
Where did you get that spec from?
Sounds like stock head bolt torque to me.
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Pull the head studs. Put the head back in for the 4th time, get one bolt in, wiggle, adjust, get in another wiggle adjust etc.... all done. torqued to 44lbs and a additional 180 degrees.
Yep, those where brand new stock bolts.
I hope to get it running tommorrow. Getting pretty tired of bumming rides.
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I am having a problem with the timing belt. I have the Injection pump pulley locked in the correct location, the cam is locked at TDC, The flywheel mark is sitting directly under the TDC mark arrow, verified as correct while the head was off. When I set the belt tensioner to the correct tension, the mark on the flywheel moves either to the left or right, depending on which way I move the tensioner while adjusting it. It's not off by a lot, 1/2 a cm approx. I have pulled the belt off and adjusted it 3 times, I get the same thing everytime. Suggestions?
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Keep the cam sprocket ever so slightly loose, tighten the belt, set the engine and cam at TDC, tighten cam sprocket bolt. Check belt tension and loosen slightly if required.
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Well, I did all that except backing off the tension. If I back off the tension, I can twist more than the 45 degrees. I called parts place and the guy on the phone told me if the timing mark was off just a little bit it was ok. It is probably off a little less than 1/2 cm. I may try and run it like that.
On to IP timing. I set the cold start all the way off. Set the engine to TDC(within 1/2 cm :( ) , installed my dial gauge with 2.5 of preload. Turned engine counter clockwise until the needle stopped moving. Set the dial face to "0". Turned the engine clockwise while watching the gauge until TDC. No movement. Did it twice just to make sure nothing was binding on the gauge. So it looks like I need to move my pump. Since I am at 0, I will need to move the pump so the needle swings clockwise to the correct setting, yes? .90--1.05mm.
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You should have had some movement. When you zeroed it, you did just turn the face and not actually slide the dial indicator out right?
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yeah. The timing is getting to be a pain in the ass. I found out if I use the clamping screw on the part that screws onto the pump, and actually holds the dial gauge with the extension piece, it locks up the gauge. I think the bore that gauge slides into is a bit too large.
I finally got it to lock in place with out restricting movement. It is a 0-10mm gauge. I set preload to 5mm(per Giles).
Turned the engine counter clockwise. The reading went up, and then dropped as I turned the crank. I turned until all movement on the dial gauge stopped. I even went 1/4 turn more to make sure I had no more movement. I then set the gauge to 0 and turned clockwise. The needle moved for a second and stopped, I continued to turn clockwise and the needle started to move again. My final reading at TDC was 2.15 Two complete revolutions plus 15. I am going to try to loosen the IP bolts and adjust it to .95
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Well I redid the timing a few more times. I think I finally did it correctly. When I spun the engine forward I ended up at .37 . I loosened up the IP and pushed it in towards the block until I was at .95 . Everything looks right. Reset all the line connections at the injectors and the pump. I am going to start putting everything else together now. The crankshaft and water pump pulleys still need to go back on with new belts. I need to adjust the tension on the A/C and then the Alt.
Jeeez the first time you do this it sure takes a long time.
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Got the pulleys on, and the lower cover. How the hell do you hold the water pump pulley while you tighten the bolts? I ended up just gripping it by hand and turning the bolts until i couldnt hold it any more. Gotta get em tighter then that before I fire it up. New belts are on. Big difference in the amount of stretch between the old A/C Waterpump belt and the new one. Old one did not look bad, but the new one is the same size and it is much tighter. I will get the Alt installed in the morning. I am going to leave the top timing belt cover off for now, just to make sure everything is tracking correctly. Put the valve cover back on, stick the dip stick tube back in, add some oil and coolant and we'll see if I did this correctly.
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I am having a problem with the timing belt. I have the Injection pump pulley locked in the correct location, the cam is locked at TDC, The flywheel mark is sitting directly under the TDC mark arrow, verified as correct while the head was off. When I set the belt tensioner to the correct tension, the mark on the flywheel moves either to the left or right, depending on which way I move the tensioner while adjusting it. It's not off by a lot, 1/2 a cm approx. I have pulled the belt off and adjusted it 3 times, I get the same thing everytime. Suggestions?
Solved the problem. Talked to Giles. He told me to pull the IP locking pin before I tensioned the belt so the tension would be distributed evenly. I did and the timing mark stayed spot on. By the way, I had the cam pulley bolt loose while I did this.
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IT LIVES!!!!!! :lol:
Got it all together except the exhaust pipe. Still need to attach it to the manifold. The old boy fired right up after a couple cranking sessions. If it wasnt for the fact that the exhaust currently ends at the exhaust manifold, I would say it sounds much better :lol: I was really worried about the timing belt tracking true on the IP pump pulley. When I turned it by hand when it was going together, it walked right up to the edge of the pulley. I was afraid that when I ran it it would keep on a walkin. It appears to be staying put for now. I have only run it for about 5 min, but no movement.
I am going to put the car up on jacks and attach the exhaust system to the manifold. Here is my question. Is it possible to use normal jackstands under the car? If I Jack on the lift point, where do I put the jack stand? Do I need special adapters to go on the jackstands of something?
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IT LIVES!!!!!! :lol:
Congrats!
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Glad to hear you got it running. I heard Giles explaining the timing proceedure to you on the phone.
Put the jackstand under the subframe. The part that the steering rack is attached to, and the rear engine and tranny mount. I like to put them out as far as possible for stability.
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Yeah, I was screwing up the timing bit a few times. Finally got it. Came out to 37 and I bumped it up to the recomended .95. I do have a small lift pump attached after the filter, I wonder if that makes a difference in the timing?
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It will effect the dynamic timing depending on what it is rated at PSI wise.
I remeber my first time doing timing... I had done a headgasket job, it was hellish.
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It will effect the dynamic timing depending on what it is rated at PSI wise.
I remeber my first time doing timing... I had done a headgasket job, it was hellish.
Thanks guys,
I wont lie, I was pretty freakin pissed when I kept doing it wrong and coming up with odd ball readings, or the dial gauge would slip out as I was making the final adjustment, or I would do it and get nothing because the locking pin was binding the gauge etc etc.. I felt like a knothead calling Giles over and over again, " Wow, thats pretty far off Jim."
Next to the last time before I got it right, I remember saying to myself, I have done all the hard work, I have AAA, I'm getting this pos towed to a garage and have them do it! I'm glad i didnt. By the way I snapped the part of the vacume pump line that goes in next to the brake resevoir when I took it off to make room for the gauge :evil: What a pain in the ass that was to fix. I had to pull out the end that plugs into the brake booster and hog it out with a drill bit by hand, same deal with the end of the line. Of course the drill bit I had was a tad too small so I had to work it in at a angle to get all the material out. I then had to go digging aroound in the garage because somewhere on my shelfs I knew I had a left over piece of small gauge bendable copper pipe. Took like an hour to find. 6" left, plenty. I cut it to length and went to mate the two ends of the vacume line. One end fit great, no joy on the other end. I had to spin the stupid piece of copper by hand while holding sand paper around it so I could get it to fit. Talk about jerry rigged. Slapped some permatex around the ends for a good seal and mashed them together. That joints not breaking again.
The last part that I will share is how I stripped one of the IP mounting bolt hole while putting in the bolts. No problem at all. whip out the tap and die set, lets see the old hole was 8mm, I will just bump it up to the next size, 9mm. Ever try and buy a 9mm bolt at a hardware store? They just look at you like you are retarded. "Um.....sorry, 6mm, 8mm ,and 10mm no problem, good luck finding a 9mm." " Why not make it a 10mm?" Because the damn bolt will now be cutting into the sides of the slot on the IP bracket you simpleton!!! :roll:
Of course what really happened was I stood there looking at them and said " Aw ***, that's just great :x "
So my IP pump only has 3 bolts holding it in place right now, but thats way better then what I started with. :lol:
I will try and find out what the lift pump puts out Tyler, since you now are working at Giles shop (lucky bastard-little nepotism goin on there? :wink: ) perhaps you can ask if I should adjust the timing to compensate. Of course......I may wait a week or so before I mess with it again :wink:
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Took it for a test spin, runs good, less smoke. Park it in the driveway, huge puddle of oil under it. It is just running out the dipstick hole in the block. I mean it's coming out good. Perhaps the gasket stuff I used was not the right stuff. I think I need to find an o-ring or something to put in there, and then some gasket crap. Popped the oil cap and there was puffs of white smoke coming out. I am sure the rings are worn. Hell I put 20-50 in it. Sure would be nice to have my new engine instead of chasing this one.
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Dead on the side of the road :evil:
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Dead on the side of the road :evil:
what happened?
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Well, I'm not sure. It was pissing oil out of the dipstick tube connection at the block. It was really leaking a LOT. I needed to get a o-ring to put on it, and I needed to get to town so I could catch my carpool to work. Drove fine the 9 miles there. Came back 10 hours later, started right up, drove to walmrt and bought some more oil, no o-rings to be had, put in 2 quarts and drove towards home. About 5 miles later oil light beeped for a second and stopped. I pulled right over and added another qt and a half. Drove 100 feet down the road and it went THUNK! and stalled. Would not turn over. Checked the belts, all good, still nice and snug. WTF? Acts like it is siezed up. I didnt let it run dry-I added oil, WTF!! This is getting stupid burning up my time and money chasing this old engine. I need my damn head so I can finish my new one.
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sure hope there isn't any major damage
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I feel your pain about chasing the old engine. Every time I fix a problem on my engine an even bigger problem surfaces.
Maybe the valves are in contact with the piston right now? If so try turning the engine backwards or push it in reverse and see if it moves? Or I guess at this point you could try taking the timing belt off and rotating the cam a little bit and rotating the crank a little bit to see which one is seized.
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The only additional work I am doing on this engine is pulling it. I have thousands invested in a rebuilt engine that is waiting to be completed. Time to get it done.
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wow that really sucks.
On the brighter side you know how to time an engine now. Everything`s easy after that...
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And on that note my new aaz head is on the way back home:) I could not wait any longer to have it ported so it will be going on as a stock head. Even stock, it will flow better then a 1.6 head. Dave is just super busy and did not get to it, thats OK he is being kind in other areas.
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Glad to hear that Dave is keeping you happy 8)
Have you done any investigating to see what happened to the engine?
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My bets on VWs optomistic 33 ftlb on the cambolt. :evil: