VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: gigaz2 on May 10, 2008, 02:39:49 pm
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hi guys, I had done a lot of reading, measuring, and comparing manufacturers catalogs and I think I can do it while parts for my 5cyl project don't arrive.
I know Prothe is planning to do it, but, does it run already?
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I have two 5 cyl engines that I would like to convert to TDI also, bought TDI cylinder heads, injectors and injection pumps.
Hope that Prothe's pistons come available, I think that he is using the pistons from a Renault Clio or Suzuki 1,5 Jimny diesel, may have to fly-cut the valve pockets in the pistons as on Renault pistons they are all the same.
Another option would be to buy pistons from the Audi A2 1,2 TDI.
I think that this will make a great engine for a Vanagon, high revving and easier on the transmission than the 2,5 TDI
Herman
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Herman,
Good luck getting Prothe to answer any questions about his products. The pistons he was locating to do the 1.6 "TDI" were chinese made pistons... he has also asked several question on here that would make me "question" whether he is just trying to piece meal this thing together. Also, recently...I asked for more information on his OS pistons for TDI's (quality, manufacturer, etc) and got no response... and the responses I did received (re: posting questions about them on other sights...objective as well) where met with questionable results.
If I were you and looking into this, I would def. try to find something OEM (not nessarily VW...you could look at Renault, etc) that would fit with the bores and be direct injected and go from there. To date...I still have not seen one "done". It would be interesting though.
Joe
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I called "my" shop and have two renault engines with valvetrain issues waiting for me :), they were being scrapped in a few days.
this is a double gift as my other project (gas clio 1.4) may benifit from the crank or block 8) (stoker, turbo or both)
the pistons would be throughly machined as I want the engine to VWM specs. (lower compression, the winter here never goes below 0 ;) )
as is already proven time and time again, the block will hold substancial power, and if I don't overdo it on the torque levels, so will the connecting rods.
itzdshtz: what engines do you have as base to convert?
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a bit off topic here, but I would require some tdi valves for this and for my 5cyl tdi project. I am weary about the parts coming from the US because of the customs roulette game.
back ontopic: I know the stock renault parts are 0.5mm smaller than the stock 1.6, but these are free, and I believe I cant mock it up and even start it like this.
then buy the real thing.
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gigaz2, both engines that I have are Audi 5 cyl TD engines, engine type DE.
Lets not get too critical about Prothe, his prices are great and he is taking a risk with this conversion also.
Herman
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We'll leave it to the feedback forum when things come back another way. As a vendor, and a good one. Usually they will answer emails about their product in order to back it up. However, I have inquired a couple times...different occasions about things and never receive anything. Also, do a little digging on TDIClub as well.
Prothe, does not do this...but, to each his own. Also, the reference to Chinese pistons was re: your 1.9 DI pistons....not any others...
It would be nice to reference this on your site for your buyers. You'll save yourself alot of inquires by answers those simple questions.
Re: good prices... you get what you pay for....
Back on topic...
If your using OEM parts, thats great! I'm sure it will be a successful end product. Sleeving a VW block is a daunting task...and risky, both the shops I have had to block work for me said they would never sleeve them given the limited room in the block without the block integrity of the cylinder walls being compromised the the thinning of the walls potentially running into oil and coolant passages.
However, finding OEM's (from any manfacturer....beware of chinese pistons) close the the bore of the stock 1.6 block would be excellent...especially if they could be found within the OVERSIZE tolerances of the 1.6 block. Yes, any project like this needs and will be well thought out. It would be impressive completed the "right" way.
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the problem see this side of the pond is that 0.5mm difference between the pistons I already have, and my test block witch I don't know the true bore, could be 76.5, or it may have been bored to the max already :(
assuming the best, could I get away with a 76.5 block and 76mm pistons?
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Hi gigas2, no, that is way too much clearance, you will have to sleeve your block or find bigger pistons.
Herman
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I have two K9K 1.5 DCI. and two VW blocks, a 1984 JR and a 1990 RA/SB.
good investment on the european warehouse ;)
import duties suck!
I loved Prague, must go back someday.
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Hey RabbitGTDguy, have you ever tried to get any answers whatsoever out of Bosch?
None of my pistons come from China, but if they did, SO WHAT? If I've sold a few hundred of them without a single long term complaint, isn't that more important?
LOL :roll: you have a PM Prothe... and most others would agree that have been around here for a while.
However, the topic for you other guys is really good and quite viable. Be careful who you trust though....do some research :) and you'll find the answers. However...not to muddy posts...
:arrow: :arrow: :arrow:
It'll be great to see someone come up with the 1.6 variation in DI form. Don't know whether sleeving is the best route for the block though. Again...addressed that above. I think its interesting how someone would buy "sleeves" for an engine that he isn't sure whether it can be done too? Hmm...
However (and I believe this is mentioned above as well), if money is not a limiting factor, there are machine shops that will make custom pistons for you. In this particular configuration and the possiblilties of the RPM's you could possibly pull from the motor potentially...I would def. look at custom rods as well and if not some other cyro treatments to other parts of the motor.
HP is important, and the old IDI's have proven that they can support that....but the added benefit on the DI motors without getting really technical ( and where there engineering comes in) is the torque that they produce.
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Has anyone sleeved a cylinder? I bought cylinder sleeves with the objective of selling them to people who want a really low budget engine rebuild.
I have replaced sleeves in Ford diesels and Mercedes Benz engines, really hard to press them out and in, you need the correct tools and a big press.
I have some sleeves here that I still have to install, they are for a Mitsubishi 4D55T diesel, these engines come with sleeves from the factory.
The wall thickness is only 1.4 MM, no collar on the top, just a straight sleeve.
To have a machine shop install a sleeve is not cheap, the cylinder bore has to be machined to the correct size and after it is pressed in, the new sleeve has to be honed to the piston size.
I know somebody that had his sleeves replaced in an 4 cyl engine and it cost him around $300.00 for just the labour.
So to convert an IDI engine to TDI and sleeve the block for the new piston size is going to cost a few extra bucks, too bad that they don't come in 77.00 MM or 77.50 MM.
Prothe, what is the OD on the sleeves that you supply for the 1.6 IDI?
Herman
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I think having the TDI head & injectors will be the most expensive part of the project...
but having to sleeve the block will probably turn off quite a few people :(
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remember that sleeving is for those whose block is out of spec, and as Prothe said there are pistons in other oversizes.
in my case I would have to sleeve, because the pistons I got (free) were 76mm
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Yeah, used injectors are the way to go as new ones cost twice what a new OEM head runs. Then you need the unobtanium(except from dealer) AHU injector lines or bend ALH ones. Prothe's head is relatively inexpensive but is bare, and is set up for the harder to find 8mm valves although new 7mm guides can fix that
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I would't buy anything new apart from seals, gaskets.. as long as there is ebay.de :D
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Why would you reuse the IDI head? Unless you fill-welded the pre-cups, it would still be an IDI whether you used TDI pistons or not.
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Why would you reuse the IDI head? Unless you fill-welded the pre-cups, it would still be an IDI whether you used TDI pistons or not.
i wonder if the TDI nozzles can fit through the precup hole... doubtful but what if?
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I guess that's what he's thinking. I'm pretty sure the cost of machining out bores for the TDI injectors in an IDI head would be pretty close to just getting a bare TDI head. Plus, there's the problem of relocating the glowplugs.
Doesn't make any sense to me at all.
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that conversion wouldn't have room for glowplugs, what is bad for cold climates.
I just went measuring my spare 1.6TD head and a tdi injector and I believe it IS possible to make a conversion, almost plug and play even
uploading pictures, will post them asap
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I guess that's what he's thinking. I'm pretty sure the cost of machining out bores for the TDI injectors in an IDI head would be pretty close to just getting a bare TDI head. Plus, there's the problem of relocating the glowplugs.
Doesn't make any sense to me at all.
Your not the only one :) The price of a bare good TDI head vs. an IDI head are getting fairly close in price and not to mention the cost in filling in the precups, drilling out the bores for injectors...relocating glow plugs (unless you want this to be useless to anyone below the southern line).
I could see project feasibility if using a 1z/AHU head....cost effective in doing this to the IDI head? Don't think so... and there are critical angles to consider with the injector placement as well.
Argh... seems like a pretty half baked idea the more I hear about it and the idea of sleeving the block above *in one cylinder that might be out of spec* is probably one of the worst things I've ever heard of.
However, to each his own.
It'll be interesting to see the culimination of this. Hopefully others that are interested are not following this example and is using what will feasibly work out there (as there are parts that would allow it...its just sourcing them)
Joe
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enough with the sleeves thing already, there are 76.5 and 77mm overbores if needed, but to source only 4 of them would be really expensive.
in order to make that price Prothe bought 200 of 76.5mm, good investment or not, at this time its the best we can get.
I have 8 of 76mm (freebies), will test fit them and hope for the best ;)
I will measure my block, if not on spec, I won't even consider the conversion, as I can get a 1.9 tdi engine for less than the machining costs of rebuilding this one.
now for the idi head conversion, would it be possible? YES
would it be cheap, reliable? not on this lifetime.
test 1.6TD head, original VW RA/SB engine
the red circle marks where the tip of the injector would protrude with stock angle (almost stock tdi location)
(http://naotefiques.no.sapo.pt/DSC01567.JPG)
the TDI injector was seating against the bottom of the orifice without the fire ring. it still needs to go in another 20mm, to the green marking aproximately.
(http://naotefiques.no.sapo.pt/DSC01568.JPG)
the next two are just to put it in perspective, there are lots of room for drilling for the plugs, but this is pointless anyway.
(http://naotefiques.no.sapo.pt/DSC01572.JPG)
(http://naotefiques.no.sapo.pt/DSC01573.JPG)
me test fitting a gt2056V on the 1.6 :D
(http://naotefiques.no.sapo.pt/DSC01548.JPG)
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I'm wondering how the injectors would be held in in the first place on an IDI head? The necessary metal is not there for the stock hold downs.
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no need to worry, as its not going to happen ;)
but I guess something could be fabbed up to hold them in place.
a gasser head would probably be easier to convert, injector in the spark plug hole for instance.
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Does anyone know if the 1Z head would fit on the MF block?
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So...then, could it be done? (IDI head conversion to TDI) the real answer there is truly a no. I think we see why. If you want to do anything and cash isn't an object...then ok...go for it:)
As for the 1z and AHU heads (which are the same), I would imagine it should fit without issue on any older diesel block as they are of the same similar design. The ALH changed things in this respect. This is what I'd like to see someone do. The difference being only that early diesel blocks of course lacked oil squirters and didn' thave the "extra" hole through the block (offset from center) for oil relief (re: Hydraulic lifters) All TD blocks should be hydraulic...
There is a a thread on here AAZ to TDI conversion on here... Good for reference (though the bore there is already setup for stock TDI pistons)
Joe
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Here are some pictures of the pre-combustion chamber, I don't think that it will pay to weld up the pre-combustion chambers and machine the head so that it will accept the TDI nozzles.
Everything is possible, but I would buy a TDI head.
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n200/itzdshtz/P5140179.jpg)
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n200/itzdshtz/P5140180.jpg)
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n200/itzdshtz/P5140183.jpg)
Here is a GTI gasser head for gigas2
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thanks for that pic!
yes, all of this is just academic research, but that last picture makes a lot more sense than trying to fill the prechamber recess.
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I would love a 1.6TDI. If there was a way it could work and still be affordable. I wasn't trying to flame you, just putting out some observations. There is nothing wrong with trying out different theories, that's how great things are made!
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flame? this has been one of my favorite discussions so far :D
I believe we now stand in a point where we almost got the "recipe" for the 1.6tdi:
-1Z head (what others could be used?)
-a good 1.6 block, that can accept stock pistons (no overbore needed)
-76,5mm pistons (we know a source, just haven't been tested yet)
then it should be a straightforward mTDI conversion, I don't believe there could be any electronics that could run this properly. but I know a few chiptuning geniuses.. who knows
to convert a IDI head for DI would be very expensive, as we can see from the last picture, a gasser head would be a better candidate (and they are a lot cheaper) but the cost of machining the head, then make inserts to properly seat the DI injectors, and a way to hold them down makes the 1Z appear a better deal.
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I agree, don't feel flamed, were just throwing ideas around.
What I will do for my project with the 5 cylinder:
I will sleeve the block with 5 sleeves because one of my blocks is now at max bore.( just ordered sleeves from Prothe)
Use Renault pistons, flycut valve cutouts on top of pistons, probably machine out the bowl in the piston a bit, (the VW stroke is longer than the Renault so the compession ratio is too high)
Make new bushings for the conrods because the Renault pins are 25mm instead of 24mm.
Build a mechanical TDI pump, I have welded a collar to the pump housing and pressed a new bushing in it so that it will accept a 20mm shaft and bigger seal.(an AAZ pumpbody will not work because it turns the wrong way)
Use a 5 cyl TDI head that I bought on Ebay DE
Use a bigger VNT turbo with mechanical control.
Well that will keep me busy for a while!
Herman
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Use a 5 cyl TDI head that I bought on Ebay DE
Herman
so its you who has been gobling up the sweet 5cyl heads on ebay :D
I was looking for a complete one, mine doesn't have valves, but I'll try to use gasser valves I got from a AAR head
I didn't like to hear about the conrod difference :(
but as I'll take two blocks apart, I can measure all the dimensions
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Sorry, I bought 2 of them lately but that's it for now, they are coming up regularly now for reasonable prices.:D
Herman
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well, I went to etka to look for the part number and cost of the 1Z valve cover and found something interesting:
028103469L --1Z AND AAZ :D
028103469E --1Z
so.. a AAZ valve cover can be used on the 1Z head
a JR valvecover can be used on the AAZ provided one drills and taps the head for the studs.
therefore, the JR valve cover can be used on the 1Z head if you drill and tap for the studs :D
am I assuming too much?
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I believe jimfoo used all the parts of his AAZ head on the 1Z.
the valves are the only difference, AAZ ones are 2mm shorter, but as I could read, it works.
I could measure the compression ratio, but my parts are in Lisbon, and I'm not :(
so its up to you Prothe
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The aaz cover does not fit a 1z head...sorry. Just because the P/N crosses, doesn't mean its right. It uses the same hold down grommets, hardware etc. but the front of the cover is distinctly different. The 1z/AHU valve cover is not straight in the front like the aaz unit. Guess you could try and fit it on there...but then prothe is like fitting your IDI head to a TDI...guess you could well.
Cheers. Flame on...
Kudos to those planning out this project the right way. I hate to say it but your feeding Prothe all the info he needs to make money off of what you have already at least thought about (beyond a half-A$$d) idea....interesting how the tone has changed...however, I'll be impressed to see one of those (with the correct idea in the first place) produce one of the motors and see what it behaves like. The CR is easy to figure out if you know the bore/stroke of what you are working with...the final test of it though would be you'd need to CC the pistons that you guys would be using and the head to figure it out pricisely. The calculation would give you an excellent idea of "where" you are at. Anyone who builds engines the right way will calculate the compression ratio (and achieve it the correct way as well...ever think about those gassers stacking there head gaskets, etc)....squish volume is VERY important...
Anyways, if get the CC measurements of your pistons you'd be using *CC the combustion chamber filled to the valve impressions, then the head with the valves sitting in it...glow plug area will be nominal in calc as well as injector protrution....but...if you wanted to, it could be figured* and you'll find your answer.
Joe
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Here is an easy to use compression ratio calculator:
http://golenengineservice.com/calc/calccr.htm
Herman
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Bore/Stroke on the 1.4TDI 79.50 mm x 95.5 mm
Bore/Stroke on the 1.2TDI 76.50 mm × 86.40mm
Bore/Stroke on the 1.6TD 76.50 mm × 86.40 mm
same bore/stroke as the 1.6TD. and since the 'post' combustion chamber is in the piston itself, using 1.2 pistons *should* yield the proper compression ratio. i think if prothe can get a complete TDI head including injectors for cheap, this might be an interesting upgrade...
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I looked into getting some 1.2TDI pistons from an Audi A2 or VW Lupo, the best price I could get was 155 Euro's per piston ( $250.00 US)
It will not fit staight out of the box either, they use a tapered conrod and the piston pin is larger also.
So the inside of the piston still needs to be machined too unless you use the 1.2tdi conrods.
It would be nice to get a used 1.2TDI piston so that you can compare the combustion chamber with Prothe's piston.
Herman
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RabbitGTDguy:
first of all thanks for the info on the valve cover.
half baked or half a$$d (whatever that is) would be to try to calculate the CR for a set of pistons that we don't know, with a conrod pin that possibly won't fit without machining...
thats why nobody said anything about that yet. its got to be measured.
have I put ANY information here that wasn't already here?
even the Renault pistons.. I had a hunch, but it was Prothe who told us what he was using.
I am NOT advertising, supporting or even buying things from Prothe. (because of custom duties, or else I would)
Prothe has a setup on his shop. I have one 300Km away.
can YOU measure the CR? I can, but not this month..
I don't see anybody flaming Giles because he does't say what he is doing to the pumps... and I bet he has a truckload of them from experimenting over the years.
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First off...your welcome...
Second....wasn't accussing you of doing things half " ", that was directed at Prothe's "poor man approach" to doing something that he obviously didn't think about much (re: IDI head to TDI ? Huh? ok....)
and I believe it was mentioned above that someone had found a set of pistons that would fit in the 1.6 block ....then the question of CR came up. Well, if they WILL fit the block then the CR calculation isn't too particularly hard to do as long as you have a few measurements...or if you know overall diameter and can get the CC information (which can often be had) then you can do it all without even having the piston in your hand. if you read, thats what I was pointing out. LOL... Anyways...
Sheez... better read it through a bit more and its honestly pointless to try and defend him on the forum here for most of us. I'm one of many and just choose to say than not say it.
Eh...To each his own.
Joe
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yeah, idi head to tdi was way far fetched.. :D
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It appears you didn't think about a lot of things.
Calculating the CC of a DI piston that would fit your "1.6" motor would be a very important thing to do. If you use a set of pistons that will require you to open up the bore of the block a bit...you'll change compression ratio, additionally, from there....the combustion chamber of the pistons, etc. will be important as well to make sure your in the ballpark for your CR to make sure the damn thing will run since there is no real baseline to work with since there is no "1.6TDI" out there on the market. Then, you have squish volume to consider and the extra area provide by whichever thickness of head gasket you use as well. What about deck height and protrusion of pistons over the block? You may...may not have to machine whatever pistons you end up with. I'd say the measurement is pretty important.
So...care to explain why you think its unimportant?
Also...how hard would it be to CC a "flat top piston" vs. a DI piston? Umm...pretty easy considering that both use the same method of measurement and pretty important considering the project that you want to attempt. Oh...and yes, a flat piston would be easy to calculate...as a matter of fact, you wouldn't have much of anything and when you talk about an insignifcant calculate...that would be one...
LOL...this is hilarious...I'm sure customers will love that.
Do you know the reasoning of the 23:1 CR of a IDI VW engine vs. the 19.5:1 TDI motor? Then the significance of getting down to say 18.5:1? Or are just just doing it based of your general reading of other peoples stuff? Errr....something doesn't make sense here.
I actually don't out source for my bits...thanks for the piece of info there. All my work is done working on my own and working closely with a few other members here on the forum. My project was thought out and feasible from a multitude of different areas...my pump is a homebrew, in a second variation thanks to closely working with other forum members, etc. To each his own, as I have said...
You however, as a vendor have a great obligation to stand behind whatever you end up building in the end and when you can't provide information on your product...hmm...
I'll be glad to watch your train wreck of a project occur. Yes, the purpose of the forum... and I have no real interest at the moment in building anything similar to this for a number of reasons. Already have enough projects in front of me, and viable, well though through ones at that. However, interesting that a vendor would think some of the obsurd ideas you had in the first place would work and I'll gladly do what I can do to be the other side of this poorly thought out project on your part so that others wouldn't fall victim to some of the crap and ill thought out ideas you have. Wow.
I think MacGyver with homemade ARC welder and a nickel could probably put together a better thought out project than you could. LOL...
Enjoy...
Joe
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rabitgtdguy: to put it simple enough for you to understand:
if some OEM pistons don't work the 1.6tdi isn't going nowhere.
thats why nobody here has started to calculate a thing.. we don't have nothing to start with.
if the proposed pistons are too tall so they can´t be machined they won't be used.
do you have a better approach? I would love to hear it.
on my part I would like to have a piston catalog with all the specs, that way we would just choose the right one, instead of having to improvise like this.
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My argument is for the importance of needing to calculate that in your considerations. That way you know "what" you are looking for. If I dig back in my thread on my mTDI build into the mk1 (as I don't have it memorized at the moment...was a while ago), I have the CC measurements for the stock TDI pistons. Also, between the 1.4, 1.9, etc. TDI's I do not believe that the combustion chamber size within the piston itself changed.
For instance...
1.2L TDI
bore 76.5mm × stroke 86.4 mm
CR= 19.5:1
and your 1.6 TD IDI is...
bore 76.5mm x stroke 86.4mm
CR=23.5:1
the 1.4 TDI (I believe as discussed moves out of an acceptable range bore wise of course...
So, at the moment...the 1.2 pistons are some of the best to work with idea wise and a probable solution. Given the fact that the compression ratio of the 1.2 is in line with the 1.9 TDI, you may not have alot of work to do CR wise, but the calc would be good to have if someone had some 1.2 pistons and the deck height and piston protrusion between the IDI block and the TDI block would effect the CR overall...and more so the "squish" volume than anything...which will contribute to how the motor will run overall characteristically. The interesting thing to look at on the 1.2 would be the valve reliefs and whether they stay the same or "switch" like they do on the 4 cyl TDI's. (i.e. cyl 1/2 are the same, then 3/4 mirror image the valve impressions of 1/2). So, there would be some machining of the valve reliefs but it wouldn't be alot.
Oh....wait...i have the answers to that. Bottom view of the 1.2 head...
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/joeallison_99/VW%20Stuff%20for%20sale/67d3_1.jpg)
compared to that of a pic I pulled of my build ...this is a 1z/AHU head...not from the same exact angle...but I did rotate the above imagine so the front of the head is facing the same direction as this one...
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/joeallison_99/TDI%20ENGINE/100_2363.jpg)
So guess what...there is an answer there...buying 2 Cyl 1/2 pistons from the 1.2 engine and 2- Cyl 3 pistons from a 1.2 will give you the correct orientation for the valve relief for the 1.6 TDI project (utilizing a 1z/AHU TDI head) as well as the orientation of the combustion chamber...
You would need to know the wrist pins sizes and accomodate the tapered rods that the 1.2 pistons will have, but the 1.6's in theory could be used (possible rebushing of 1.6 rod may or may not be needed) to accomodate. It def would be nice to have a 1.2 piston and rod to look at...
Or from there...its finding through the various other DI engines out there on the market what "could" work.
However, in some of the other considerations (wasn't Renault mentioned back a few pages) regarding pistons...it would be "who" of anyone thinking of...considering something along those lines to CC those units and see what the CR would be (before you even start) considering in the calculation the bore that you would need to have in using these in the 1.6 block (while also considering your rod bushings, wrist pins, etc) as DI combustion chambers differ between manufacturers... and the placement of the combustion chamber and the valve reliefs on the piston. All differ when looking at different pistons
A custom piston is almost going to be needed to make things work correctly but it shall be interesting to see if someone can get ahold of 1.2 pistons for an idea or two...
You do have something to start with...
Joe
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see, you can be constructive :D
I applaud you (no really, i do) one of the best posts in this thread!
I could ask my mechanic to strip the block and send me a piston and rod, but he is already giving them to me. I can't push it, as soon as I can I will cc them, and take all the measurements necessary.
the 1.2 pistons would almost certainly work, but someone would have to source them cheap, I believe the Renault option was only considered because of the price and availability.
its almost easier to find a mk1 GTI than a 3l Lupo or A2 :(
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I have been constructive either way...and always have been on this forum. There is a bit of information regarding it. As for pushing your mechanic...i def. wouldn't either, having the ability to get them for what they are (FREE) is something good... I def. wouldn't rush. You'll have them where others won't. Sort of a golden egg for a project like this and I think you'll see it even more so when you get the pistons and rods in hand.
LOL...now...no one mentioned that getting them would be easy! Your def. lucky there! I def. wouldn't want any junk chinese knock offs of them either. I'm of the do it once....do it right philosophy and just don't sway there. You get what you pay for.
On that...Prothe...
My posts have been constructively and realistically objective and negative towards his approach, ideas and project given what information he has gathered for this "cobbled" project on his end. I'm sure he will take this information for his benefit (now that it is provided) in sourcing more parts to make his project and capitalization on it all the more of a reality.
well, I need not say much more. I have more information regarding this project, ideas for you, etc. but I will not post them because of the above fact. Feel free to email and I'd be glad to share...
That is just a piece of things and honestly its being made alot harder than it really is (other than looking in the right places).
Additionally...read this...
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=14291
Joe
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i like Prothe's idea... reminds me a lot about jimfoo's 1.9 converted into a 1.9TDI. there were quite a few skeptics who thought it couldn't be done... and look what he did :wink: i think that the end result will be great, and that we should all chip in ideas to get this thing rolling. obviously Prothe isn't really in this for the big bucks... look at his site?
Joe thanks for posting some constructive ideas/opinions. i like that you brought up the issue of valve relief, the 'squish', cr, etc. all good things to know.
on the note of the chinese knock offs; who would realistically want to spend over $3000 on oem stuff (not including the pump :shock: ) when they could simply pay $1000 to their otherwise 'spent' 1.6 engine to turn it into a lean mean mpg+power machine?
when i look at how much i spent for my 1.9TDI rebuild (not even including pistons as i got lucky they were still in spec) it was around $1200 (give or take... those glyco bearings & geotz rings are $$$+ total seal :oops:) minus the turbo & pump, and the initial $1200 to buy the longblock itself. it kind of makes me sick when i could have bought a gently used PD longblock, fully loaded for around that price. WITH AN ECU!!!!!!!!! :x :x :x :x :x :x :x
now thankfully i make decent wage and i can afford the 'good stuff' but for those who can't, i must applaud Prothe for being able to offer a cheaper alternative for the "people's car" made for the people. i'm sure that people know what they're getting into when they buy his stuff. i think anyone who remembers FAG parts (pun or not its funny to me :lol:) can remember the saying "you get what you pay for."
and for the reliability of chinese products... they might have a bad reputation, but look at GM. they're probably WORSE! :lol: a lady at my work just had to replace the windshield wiper motor on her 2005 chevy truck. what a joke. $300 to replace it. i would personally buy a chinese knockoff of that motor ANYDAY!
lets get back to information exchange, shall we? 8)
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I think we are exchanging information and honestly others feed off of it too. Also, it wasn't originally a "Prothe" idea anyways. Its been kicked around several times in several different places. His ideas are significantly off other than knowing that he'd like to have a "1.6 TDI" build kit to sell.
tell me what of his ideas have shown clarity and a good amount of realistic information...
The essentials that I "brought up" are key consideration in any engine build, especially one that is "non stock" or seriously modified beyond the stock unit. They are key characteristics that effect the dynamics of how the engine will run and operate on a whole...
To each his own (note to self...make a record of this statement so I don't have to retype it) but if you are comfortable in supporting those dirt cheap prices, the poor souls behind producing them and that in the name of saving bucks for youself. Ok. Great. However, do it once and do it right. I may have spend a little more on "OEM" products, but I know where it came from, know what is inside my motor and know what I have built and therefore consider it a solid, quality and well thought out build.
I also think your idea of $3000 in OEM parts is quite off. I can tell you that I used all OEM parts in my motor...of Excellent or Best quality and don't have that into it.
Re: pumps...that is all the choice of the builder. It can be done and be done well by the DIY'er so the choice between having them built by Giles or the similar is that of the person behind the motor. I'd feel good about Giles regarding his products, as he has shown us what he has done (though not in complete detail) and the intensive testing and adjustment that they go through (remember the YouTube video). I'm going to bet he doesn't use chinese seals in his pumps though...nor hydraulic heads, etc. etc.
I'm not rich, nor well off but saved and spent the money on good...quality stuff. That is part of doing it once and doing it right. But alas...I'm beating a dead horse...
Joe
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blah blah blah...
really...at this point now your saying you have a 1.6 motor and have some 1.6 TDI pistons and that you "think" the CR is around 23:1 with these? Interesting...
Looks like you need to take another look. If you have stock 1.6 IDI pistons and a stock 1.6 block....sure...your going to have a CR of that...
TDI pistons will be FAR different...hate to break it to you. You might want to read about what a compression ratio isn't and where the combustion chamber exists on a DI motor and how you would go about calculating that *even though I've mentioned it now several times* "how"...
Maybe I need bigger font? Clear instructions...
Package...stamp...sell...
WOW...
And prothe....why don't you speak directly to me instead of around me...lol.
Just another example.
I'll glady speak to anyone on the specs , etc. and share the ideas I have as I stated above. I have the specs for the 1.2 pistons, rods, etc. from my old notes back before I did the first mTDI build in the Mk1. PM me...I'm not posting them for this clown, it may take me a few days to provide them...but they are here. "I've spent hundreds of hours" researching them...
Oye...
Joe
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I think thats a good idea... and as part of a "measurement" for the CR, to get it accurately...you'd have to do some CC'ing to pull the correct measurement. Its not just as easy as a "bore and stroke" measurement as the calculators have it out there. Oye.
Good luck on the observations...maybe the motor will measure itself or you'll get epihanies while your "observing" (what...i'm not quite sure) and things will just start coming together. That'd be excellent.
In regards to "what does this mean", I think if you read into what I said...you'll figure out what I mean
Def not a personal arguement, I have no need to argue with you...but I will comment on comments that misdirect and/or mislead others. Gladly..
Additionally, you skate and manipulate quite well...I'm more than happy to point that out too.
Think it just goes to show that just about anyone can sell parts...
Ah...but anyways...for those others. I'll be digging through some of my old data I had written down a long time ago and had found info on the 1.2L engine somewhere. I'll gladly provide that for you through if the need exists. I think, if I remember correctly (with the exception of the tapered rods) you'll find the possibilities of it quite impressive.
Additionally, since one of you already has a line on the 1.2L pistons/rods. You'll be that much further ahead and as far as this project goes you may hold the "holy grail" to getting it going....the correct way.
Joe
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You plan to get running a 1.6 TDI and you do not know what is a compression ratio..... good luck.
Like you say, around 19 is good for the test and probably the best value for well working, but It's not a measurement in Bar, It's a ratio of your cylinder volume.
You need to make some measurement and calculation to find it on your experimental motor, nobody here can tell you what is your C/R, you have to find it, It's not an easy task.
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Tintin, you're right, compression is a ratio. What I am planning on doing is to install the pistons and attempt to test the compression of the engine. This will give me a rough estimate of the compression ratio. My prediction is about 20:1 right now (without machining the pistons). This means I am figuring that the psi I measure should be more than the 1.9 TDI, but less than the 1.6 IDI numbers.
After I have machined the pistons to my liking, then I'll measure the actual cylinder volumes to get a compression ratio.
Has anyone here measured cylinder volume before?
Wow...
We need a sticky note program to post into this thread for extremely dumb comments or such observations. For example... Martin, I don't think he quite "gets" what your asking. LOL. However...he did express that compression ratio is a "ratio". Good thing we have that nailed down.
Prothe... volume is an elementary measurement....here, I'll help you out...
http://msnucleus.org/membership/html/k-6/as/scimath/3/assm3_5a.html
that would be good practice...
Otherwise...
Volume of a cylinder = Pi * R^2 * H, where
Pi = 355/113
R = radius of the base circle, and
H = height of the cylinder
and for Compression Ratio...
(http://www.muller.net/sonny/crx/compression/cr.gif)
Among other things as well you need...
To accurately calculate compression ratio, you must know several things:
1. Bore measurement
2. Stroke of the cylinder
3. Volume of combustion chamber (in the pistons on a DI motor, including valve depressions) This is where that "CC'ing" comes in that I was talking about...
4. The compression height of the piston
5. The dome/dish volume of the piston (gasser) on DI's, combustion chamber is in piston... no dome/dish measurement
6. The piston-to-deck clearance (protrusion)
7. The thickness of the headgasket
8. The bore of the headgasket
All this and you want to market what you slap together and have to ask the questions to figure out? Wait...it'll actually be on someone else's acct. Gotcha...
Oh....umm...ah...yes, got it.
Oye vey...guessing always works too i suppose.
Joe
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the previous post didn't come off as arrogant :roll:
we know you don't like the guy but jeez keep it technical!
Prothe: the best ratio is probably somewhere around 18.5-19:1
the higher the injection pressure, the lower the compression ratio. the engine will probably run with 15:1, but have crappy cold starting. the high CR is only for cold starting.
it all depends on which injectors you can supply with your conversion package. early TDI's had somewhere around 180 bar and later TDI's had around 220 bar. the CR difference between the two isn't much, but it makes a difference.
some people on this forum think that you will slap together a frankenstein motor with half tdi parts and half 1.6 parts and sell it without doing some experimentation... obviously you won't sell it if it won't work right.
the way i see it, a 1.9TDI 1Z head will fit onto a 1.6 hydraulic block WITHOUT modification. 1.2L pistons will fit into a 1.6 hydraulic or even mech block WITHOUT modification. the only thing left is to see if the 1.6 rods will fit the 1.2 pistons, and if the 1.6 rods have the right stroke, and guess what? it does have the right stroke.
i will bet you that if you can get the pistons to fit with the 1.6 rods, that this engine will work (obviously with a complete 1Z/AHU head)
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I don't think arrogant is the right word. I'd say my post was more...err...
Well...def. truthful and its not a matter of me liking/not liking Prothe as its not personal. HOWEVER on the technical side of things, I think the more this is discussed, the more you see true character. He might be a great guy to talk too...its def. not personal.
Oh...I did keep it technical as well (jtanguay...did you notice my explanations on CR?). If he is going to attempt a calculation I hope that it is done correctly and you might as well start with a refreshing on calculating volume if you have to ask the question "has anyone calculated cylinder volume before".
Joe
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I don't think arrogant is the right word. I'd say my post was more...err...
Well...def. truthful and its not a matter of me liking/not liking Prothe as its not personal. HOWEVER on the technical side of things, I think the more this is discussed, the more you see true character. He might be a great guy to talk too...its def. not personal.
Oh...I did keep it technical as well (jtanguay...did you notice my explanations on CR?). If he is going to attempt a calculation I hope that it is done correctly and you might as well start with a refreshing on calculating volume if you have to ask the question "has anyone calculated cylinder volume before".
Joe
i meant keep it technical as in stop 'flaming' him. its getting annoying, dude.
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Dude....if it was flaming him the mods would have said something and changed the post if they felt that way. I believe it was setting the record state on a pretty important aspect of engine building...and it is accurate...
The manner in which I state it is reflective of Prothe's questionable skill. I had to make it legible for his understanding. If you want to read into it that far...that is your perogative...
Thanks for your comments though.
Joe
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Geez, Joe.
Back off a little, man. The guy is working on a project. He asks questions and has sources for parts. As of this moment, he's not trying to sell an untested product. If he gets it together, tested it, and it works, he can sell it. He has already invested money into this project. That's more than I have done. He deserves financial reward for his investment if the project works and meets a need in the marketplace. If I decide to buy from him, I KNOW that I'm buying an experimental project with parts from God knows where. Some ppl have had bad luck with Pete's parts. Some have had good luck. There are 3 sides to every story. I'm HOPING that he will stand behind his product when I purchase, but caveat emptor, right?
All I'm saying is, you don't like the guy, or don't like what he stands for, or don't like what he sells, or don't like his prices, or don't like his lack of knowledge, or something. He is experimenting on his dime at the moment. He is asking questions and learning as he goes. Please let it rest. We get it. I respect your knowledge and appreciate your input, but it is getting to the point that I'm skipping your posts because they are becoming redundant in theme. I want you to know, that I haven't purchased anything form Pete, but I probably will at some point in the future. My Cabrio HP project will probably get parts form MikeW. My '82 daily beater will probably get parts form Pete. I will have a side by side comparison that I will fund, someday. It will not be fair as the Cab will be built to put out substantially more power. Hence the reason of using the highest quality parts from known origin.
Pete,
Good luck with your endeavors. If the 1.6TDI thing works out, I will probably give it a go in my daily.
Putting my flame suit on,
Don.
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Don,
Good, Great...Excellent for you. Others still deserve to be informed about anything misleading in the thread. Also, if you skip the posts that I have posted about (several), you'll miss some important information regarding important considerations that would/will help in this "endeavour". That is your choice.
Please do not put words in my mouth, accuse me of not liking the guy and making this personal (as I have outlined evidently in one of the posts you missed); as that is not my intention nor my direction. If you look through the posts, there is validity, substance and standing in each one and only maybe the final "product" of the post goes back to the reoccuring theme that would question "Pete" as a vendor. He might/maybe a great guy...fine... it is your post and ones like it that start to turn this thread re: this project towards a "personal" direction. Not my individual postings.
Please do tell me that I didn't provide a significant amount of information, evening providing examples re: the 1.2 TDI head, orientation, which pistons would be needed. I also have the further information regarding rods that i have emailed to a few that have inquired regarding them. Also...tell me that my posts regarding the need to "Pete" to properly "CC" his pistons and then do calculations to accurately predict is compression ratio.
Please...
Additionally, in asking for what he things the "optimal" ratio would be... how can anyone know that hasn't developed this before? How can they answer. Does this CR need to be based upon performance aspects (as there is a VWMS and other optimum there) or for "all around" driving conditions (including cold weather starts....as already mentioned by other members). You guys who are trying to drum up a "personal" attack on my part including "Pete" himself (who has accused me) seem like little girls trying to start something at a school. Come on...
The information is all right there.
Re: standing behind product...you might want to check out a few of the testimonials that are starting to pop up, even in our own thread on it in the General section.
Don't make it personal on my part...I'm providing the information for others and it is reliable, accurate information at that. I could give two *$)# about him to be honest. However, this is a forum, for DIYers and the like, and I'm entitled to my thoughts. If you want to skip them...go ahead!
Have a good one.
Joe
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I've been waiting for someone who know's the unusual features of the 1.9 TDI head to comment on why the VW 1.2 3-cylinder TDI pistons will not work for the 1.6 IDI to SDI conversion, even though the bore and stroke are the same, and the compression ratio is already where it should be.
that was addressed before.
but do you already have a franken engine? it looks that way.
waiting for the pictures to check that out :D
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Well, the pistons that I had ordered came today. They look good, steel insert for the top piston ring, nice machined surface.
Some issues :
On the Renault, the injection bowl in the piston is offset towards the left of the engine on all pistons while on the VW TDI, cyl 1 and 2 are offset towards the left and cyl 3 and 4 are offset towards the right.
The Renault uses a tapered small end on the conrod.
The piston doesn't have a cutout for the oil spray nozzle.
Piston pin size 26 mm.
I think that that since the Renault engine has about 6mm less stroke than the VW, the bowl has to be machined larger to end up with a compression ratio of about 18.5:1.
It looks like there is enough material to machine the bowl offset about 4.5 mm towards the right on piston 3 and 4.
I CC'd the bowl in this piston and it is about 16cc up to the valve pocket.
Does anybody know how deep the valve pockets are in an early TDI? (I don't have one apart right now)
I will make an adapter to hold the piston in the lathe, so that I can accurately machine the bowls larger and also offset the bowl to the other side.
The connecting rods will need to have bigger bushings installed and I think that it is best to machine the small end of the rod to a taper, instead of machining the inside of the piston and possibly affecting the ovalty of the piston at operating temperature.
Since I am sleeving my engine, I have std size pistons (76 mm) which allows me one over-size for the future. They only come in 76mm and 76.5mm.
Lets all try to get this conversion to work, in harmony with each other, the world is already stressfull enough.
Herman
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Lets all try to get this conversion to work, in harmony with each other, the world is already stressfull enough.
Herman
Other than "others" that tend to try and restate the obvious (of what others have said and try to take ownership of it....yesh.. CR, thanks, we know its a ratio... 1.2 info...yeap, your welcome for that) I'm all for that.
Hopefully one of you guys across the pond is able to get this up and going here soon since you have more ready access to things and seem to have the thought processes in line.
and itzdshtz....KUDOS to you for working with things the "right" way. Nice post and if you are interested in valve depression measurements...i can get those to you from a older junk TDI piston I have. Just shoot me a PM.
Joe
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What I read and post in this thread, seems to be correct for me, there are no denigration of Prothe's product and no malicious comment about him, just warning statement to help his project.
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A liquid to measure the volume, water? or a special liquid?
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i think the 1.6TDI could yield better fuel economy than the 1.9TDI at the cost of torque and hp. would be recommended for a rabbit or a mk2 jetta/golf. it would certainly change the way some people view their old 1.6 diesel block though :lol: :wink:
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An 1.9L TDI in a MK2 golf get around 3.8-4L/100km.
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I never used water, the process is incredibly simple, but hard to do if you want accuracy.
I acheived 2.9l/100km in my brothers golf MK3, its running extra lean because I'm fooling the ecu and making more boost than required all the time.
I guess a mk2 tuned for fuel economy could do way less.
(vnt15, 10mm pump on 187 injectors for instance)
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I'm very interested in this thread, been reading for a while now.
If the financial backing was there I would be all over the project side and just go for it..
Watching closely.
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the new Polo has to meet tough emissions standards, that and and the weight differential between the two makes that difference in consumption.
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the new Polo has to meet tough emissions standards, that and and the weight differential between the two makes that difference in consumption.
don't forget driving habits too... i don't think i could ever achieve above 50 mpg... :twisted: