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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: vegfuel on April 27, 2008, 12:15:12 am
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The price of diesel in my neck of the woods is now up to approx. $4.45 U.S. dollars/ gallon. This is really making wonder whether or not to install an SVO kit into my Golf which currently runs on biodiesel.
I have heard plenty of good things from SVO users but I am still very skeptical about the mechanical effects and how well can the injection system handles hot oil. I would think that an additive would be necessary to keep the injection system clean.
Can someone give me their opinion on this?
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you could run an 80% diesel 20% wvo mix. just be sure to filter it good and let it settle. running an additive at this point would be wise. 20% cheaper fuel prices right there :wink:
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danm :!: and you complain about that :?: :shock:
the price here is equivalent of $8.26 U.S dollars/ gallon :shock: and the price is going up(more taxes)
if you use SVO there is no need to use a addative :wink: lubricates much better than diesel, engine runs better and so on and so fourth
if its just above freezing
0-degrees celsius
32-degrees farenheit
and you have a mechanical injectionpump you can blend 50/50svo no problem, done so for 2 years without any problem about 30 000 veggie miles
last year i begun using wvo, pm if you are interested about knowing more about this, we are quite many around here that has been using the same recepy some more than than 81 000 WVO miles without any problems
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danm :!: and you complain about that :?: :shock:
the price here is equivalent of $8.26 U.S dollars/ gallon :shock: and the price is going up(more taxes)
if you use SVO there is no need to use a addative :wink: lubricates much better than diesel, engine runs better and so on and so fourth
if its just above freezing
0-degrees celsius
32-degrees farenheit
and you have a mechanical injectionpump you can blend 50/50svo no problem, done so for 2 years without any problem about 30 000 veggie miles
last year i begun using wvo, pm if you are interested about knowing more about this, we are quite many around here that has been using the same recepy some more than than 81 000 WVO miles without any problems
Any chance we could get you to post another subject line with some details?? How you filter, how you mix, etc. Been seriousy considering this, fuel is up to 1.29 /litre here and still climbing. Got 5 diesels and access to oil...........
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$4.45 for a gallon????
Here in sunny sunny England were on £1.20 a litre, and thats the cheap nasty stuff!!
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The cheapest here is 1.14 euros a litre. That's 6.75 dollars a gallon.
However, diesel price has always been too low here compared with the rest of Europe, and has been rising for some time and probably will keep on rising.
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The price of diesel in my neck of the woods is now up to approx. $4.45 U.S. dollars/ gallon. This is really making wonder whether or not to install an SVO kit into my Golf which currently runs on biodiesel.
I have heard plenty of good things from SVO users but I am still very skeptical about the mechanical effects and how well can the injection system handles hot oil. I would think that an additive would be necessary to keep the injection system clean.
Can someone give me their opinion on this?
converting my car right now to a "3 " tank system ........ i will post a thread on it in a couple weeks time when i'm closer to being finished .
but i am taking pics while i'm building right now .
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I've been adding veg oil to my tanks for a while now, strictly as an IP beneficial...sure seems to make her happy. I don't have a source for WVO so I usually end up filtering the dregs of my deep fryer and let it sit for two weeks and de-water it before it goes in (wise move, lots of water in it after a batch of fries goes through it...just bring it up to temp to boil it off until it stops "snapping"). I usually end up with a couple litres per tank and it works out well.
I have read a couple of posts from folks in the UK that mix up to 40% pure veg and cut it with dino diesel....
That 3 tank build sure sounds interesting....
Cheers,
Andy
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I am also in the process of constructing an SVO / WVO 2-tank system.
Moreover, I'll be able to provide some pix and videos of what SVO spray patterns look like out of our injectors at various temperatures and such; this is something I've been working on for a while. It'll be at least another couple of months, but when I've got the stuff made up, it'll be posted here.
As far as an additive with SVO / WVO - no, not really necessary. Or rather, that is to say it isn't necessary as long as proper attention has been paid to everything else. Here's why:
Additives (Like Stanadyne Performance Formula) aren't really intended to "keep your injection system clean". They have a few main purposes:
- Raise cetane levels (Most North American diesel fuel hovers around 40
- Improve lubricity. Ultra-Low Sulphur Diesel (ULSD) in particular has especially poor lubrication properties.
- Stabilize the fuel. Basically, prevent undue oxidation or other deterioration if you're storing it for a while.
In most good additives, there aren't any detergents or other "extras" because they're not directly related to fuel quality anyway. SVO / WVO is already:
- Higher cetane. Vegetable oils range in cetane from low-40's to over 60, depending on the feedstock. So at a minimum, we're talking 5 to 50% higher cetane than readily-available diesel.
- Better lubricity. WAAAAAY better, so long as all water (Not just FREE water, but that's another topic entirely) and all contaminants have been removed.
- Much Less Stable. Vegetable oil or even biodiesel are carbohydrates, not hydrocarbons. Bottom line is, they rot, and they are food for all manner of living things. Not so with diesel fuel. So with all other things being equal, SVO/WVO will oxidise much more quickly than "conventional" fuels and/or turn rancid in your tank / cans / drums in time. There are additives ostensibly intended for biodiesel or vegetable oil out there - I've never used any, nor examined their chemical composition, so I can't tell you a damn thing about them. My guess is that most of them are snake oil, but that is based on 100% conjecture and speculation. Feel free to disregard my opinion any time I have no info to back it up.
So basically, for 2 of the 3 major benefits provided by diesel additives, SVO or WVO is already superior, assuming that you have paid the requisite attention to collection, filtration, and handling. If you haven't done that, then all bets are off.
For the remaining one attribute, SVO / WVO is definitely inferior. However, if you are already aware of this and structure your usage and storage patterns around it (i.e. make use of good oil and burn it within 2 months) it shouldn't be an issue. Bottom line here is that diesel additives are meant for diesel, and the benefits that they confer on diesel fuel are mostly not required for (Properly Treated) SVO / WVO anyway.
If the oil is fully de-watered (which actually implies the use of a chemical desiccant or molecular sieve, not just removing the "free" water that you can see), filtered down to 1-2 microns, and de-acidified if necessary, there is no reason to believe that it will cause undue damage to your fuel pump. 99.9% of people won't do all of this, however. They will remove free water (skip the chemical dessicant or molecular sieve and just do a "crackle" test), filter it down to 2-10 microns give or take, and ignore the pH. I can't even begin to gauge what it will or won't do to your pump and injectors in that case - but over time, odds are high that it won't be good. You may well make back the investment to get another pump and rebuild your injectors in that time, I don't know. Just bear in mind that it likely won't run forever or even as long as on "conventional" diesel and you're OK.
With regard to how the oil will function in the injectors / engine.
As far as what will happen to injectors themselves, or within the engine; engine internals are beyond my knowledge and ability to test, so there's not much I can say. One point I can make is that Elsbett uses different injector nozzles for their SVO systems, which supposedly narrow the spray to keep the SVO away from cylinder walls, ostensibly reducing or eliminating coking and allowing a complete burn in air instead of spattering onto metal. Haven't seen or tested, can't make a judgement.
Giles and I may have the opportunity in the reasonably near future to strip down and fully examine (and document) an SVO/WVO pump which was put on brand new, used in a 2-tank system, and had 10-15,000 km put on it. There's nothing wrong with the pump at this point, we just figured it might be interesting to do an examination and see if there is any early damage or not. The system is managed by a pretty conscientious guy, a friend of mine, so it's a good representative of the "best-case" scenario. If or when we get to that, I'll link to the full report and any associated images.
And that's all for my latest ramble. Hopefully some of this info is helpful.
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I've been adding veg oil to my tanks for a while now, strictly as an IP beneficial...sure seems to make her happy. I don't have a source for WVO so I usually end up filtering the dregs of my deep fryer and let it sit for two weeks and de-water it before it goes in (wise move, lots of water in it after a batch of fries goes through it...just bring it up to temp to boil it off until it stops "snapping"). I usually end up with a couple litres per tank and it works out well.
I have read a couple of posts from folks in the UK that mix up to 40% pure veg and cut it with dino diesel....
That 3 tank build sure sounds interesting....
Cheers,
Andy
I've done some of this too, and it has *seemed* to run more smoothly.
I still consider it a highly suspect practice, done out of my poverty rather than according to my better judgement. ;)
I don't know yet if damage has been done to any component of my system as a result, but it wasn't something that concerned me tremendously because I've got another car in progress. If this one fails, I'll get into the other one faster.
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BenjaminR wrote:
If the oil is fully de-watered (which actually implies the use of a chemical desiccant or molecular sieve, not just removing the "free" water that you can see), filtered down to 1-2 microns, and de-acidified if necessary, there is no reason to believe that it will cause undue damage to your fuel pump. 99.9% of people won't do all of this, however. They will remove free water (skip the chemical dessicant or molecular sieve and just do a "crackle" test), filter it down to 2-10 microns give or take, and ignore the pH. I can't even begin to gauge what it will or won't do to your pump and injectors in that case - but over time, odds are high that it won't be good. You may well make back the investment to get another pump and rebuild your injectors in that time, I don't know. Just bear in mind that it likely won't run forever or even as long as on "conventional" diesel and you're OK.
I am pretty familiar with testing for pH for the oil but how where would I get a chemical to de-water?
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for the diesel additive i was thinking of an anti gel additive to keep the veg from thickening up on a cold night... now if the anti gel additives don't work on veg oil then i guess there is no need for additives. something like power service. they also sell biocide which kills the bacteria which creates acid and breaks down the oil.. plus they have a wide variety of other products to help 'disperse' water in the fuel system. for the average joe wanting to save a few bucks on fuel, this might be the best option, as it does not take much of their product to treat a single tank. plus it also stabilizes the fuel so you can store your fuel without worrying.
http://www.powerservice.com/bk/default.asp?view=app
this is around $18 cdn at cnd tire and will treat 300 gallons of fuel. i bought two jugs about two years ago and i'm still on my 1st jug! (goes to show how much i drive :lol: but i don't always add the additive to the tank, it stinks and sometimes spills.. its worse than diesel!)
http://www.powerservice.com/dfs/default.asp?view=app
and looks like you can run year-round biodiesel with this stuff :wink:
http://www.powerservice.com/aeba/default.asp?view=app
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the simplest and best way to filter and dewater is using a centrifuge
either a oc-20(or bigger if you use much oil)
http://www.dieselcraft.com/productinfo_OC20.html
http://www.xyzworks.com/centrifuge.htm
or this simple centrifuge
http://www.simplecentrifuge.com/
after the oil has gone through the centrifuge enough its really clean and has amber like colour and water free
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plus they have a wide variety of other products to help 'disperse' water in the fuel system. for the average joe wanting to save a few bucks on fuel, this might be the best option, as it does not take much of their product to treat a single tank. plus it also stabilizes the fuel so you can store your fuel without worrying.
"dispersing" water means introducing a solvent that absorbs it into the fuel. It doesn't mean getting rid of it. So what you're doing is raising the mixture's capacity to hold water chemically - this can still damage injectors / pumps / etc - it is exactly what I'm referring to when I suggest chemical dessication / use of a molecular sieve or something. The only benefit from water "dispersion" is that there is no free water for bacteria to colonize or to freeze solid in your lines during the winter.
A few points:
No fuel additives are presently designed for vegetable oil, as far as I'm aware. Will diesel fuel additives like Power Service work in vegetable oil? They'll do something, but that doesn't mean they'll work as intended. You can't necessarily make the assumption that they will.
Biocides do work to prevent the algaes/fungi/bacteria/whatever that will infest diesel fuel which has free water. They don't work by themselves to prevent the natural breakdown of vegetable oil or biodiesel. They'll prevent most kinds of bacteria from causing a problem, but it does nothing to stabilize the fuel.
"Stabilizers" are designed for conventional fuels, not for vegetable oil. The actual mechanism by which they work depends on the fuel that they are created for, but as far as I'm aware they don't "stabilize" vegetable oil in any meaningful way. Using them won't harm the oil, but it also won't yield the same long-term storage results as you get with diesel fuel.
Centrifuges do wonders to remove free water - they'll get all of it, and much faster than most other methods. However, they do NOT remove water that has been chemically bound into the mixture, only the stuff that is mechanically mixed in. So if you've used some "dispersion" method, or if you're using waste oil that has been heated at pressure with food in it, you've definitely still got water in the oil; the question is simply "Is there ENOUGH water in the oil to do damage?" In a lot of cases the answer will be no. I'm just raising a point here that is often glossed over and which is well worth considering.
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I've seen Diesel here at £1.20 a litre, did some sums and that $10.80 per UK gallon..
Scarey biscuits. :shock:
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about 8,5$/gallon in Germany..
i have been driving on SVO and WVO some time now, SVO is not really critical, when it has good quality.
When driving on WVO i from time to times use biodiesel and gasoline to keep the pump clean and to avoid germs in the fuel system.
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it a 1.30 cdn here per litre right now , roughly 4.80 cdn a american gallon , 5.80 cdn a imperial gallon .
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Another concern I have is the economy. I heard that you need to advance the timing and this could have an affect.
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Another concern I have is the economy. I heard that you need to advance the timing and this could have an affect.
the orifice of the nozzle in stock application isn't properly tuned to run on veg. i would imagine replacing nozzles would be a better idea than messing with timing, although perfectly calibrating using one of those diesel pulse timing meter's while running on veg could be interesting! i personally would like to see the difference while the system was running either fuels... i wonder if it would be that big?
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Another concern I have is the economy. I heard that you need to advance the timing and this could have an affect.
the orifice of the nozzle in stock application isn't properly tuned to run on veg. i would imagine replacing nozzles would be a better idea than messing with timing, although perfectly calibrating using one of those diesel pulse timing meter's while running on veg could be interesting! i personally would like to see the difference while the system was running either fuels... i wonder if it would be that big?
I'm just guessing it would. I can certainly hear the effects of B99 biodiesel when run in my Golf. The engine gets real quiet and seems to not get as hot. I'm wondering if getting some of those veg nozzles to make a bigger spray pattern if it would make a difference since veg oil has more mass.
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my experience has been , a bigger issue is getting the veg oil hot enough AT the injectors .
that means running a hotter thermostat , and a proper heat exchanger .
i've seen too many veg oil systems run too cool causing various problems .
the hotter the veg oil is ( using coolant as the heat source ) the closer it is to acting like diesel. meaning stock diesel settings , timing and nozels will work fairly well .
something i've run across with he cummins guys using a high lift cam plate and a 14mm pump head , they are running into heat build up issues in the injection pump ( on diesel ) ...... i'm thinking this would be a ideal situation for veg oil , since the ip wouldn't be removing heat from the oil , but maybe even adding heat .
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$8.96 per US gallon. Mostly tax. This is why diesel tax fraud is a national sport over here.
With regards to SVO being too thick without heating, has anybody tried thinning it down with paraffin? Kerosene for those over the pond. :wink: . On its own it has terrible lubricity, but with an octane of zero, that should be a good cetane value. Say 20% paraffin to 80% veg oil. Any good disaster stories? :D
THIS IS ONLY A QUESTION! DON'T DO THIS AT HOME!
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it's not so much that it's too thick , but more a matter of it needing to be at a higher temp as it's being injected into the engine to completely burn .....
otherwise you end up with the fuel your trying to burn running to the edges of the cylinder as it's burning , which then does damage to the rings and / or burns what engine oil is on the cylinder wall / in the top ring land
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I hear 180*F or 82*C at least. Is there anyone on here with a kit from Greasecar.com? What the verdict on these?
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I've been lurking on the veg sites for awhile...the common denominator with veg conversion is HEAT. Hose-in-hose fuel systems (sheathed in insulation), in-tank heater, insulated tank, heated filter, heated lines to the IP and heated injector lines. It all adds up to big dough if you're not careful...but diesel isn't getting any cheaper either.
The jury's out on Merc injectors (both sides swear success) but I've noticed the Merc folks seem to have less posts on driveability problems in the cooler temps.
Andy
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pricey .... yes .... and that is why i haven't done a proper install on my jetta sooner .
so far i have over 500.00 in just parts alone ( i'm expecting another 200.00 to 300.00 in other costs ) , and i'm building everything from scratch and using steel rather than aluminum for my tanks .
aluminum would add another 250-300.00 to the total cost .
right now at the current diesel prices , payback will be around 8 months to a year of regular driving .... sooner if i do any sort of travelling for school or work .
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$8.96 per US gallon. Mostly tax. This is why diesel tax fraud is a national sport over here.
:D :D :D :D :D
Amen to that.
Cool another local - I'm down on the coast south of Exeter...
Anyways short of a regular supply of red diesel (Not that I would advocate that of course :wink: ) can I just add veg oil ( & any particualer veg oil?) from the store to my tank - say a approx 25% mix when I fill up - even that would save me approx £15 - £20 a tank... ($30 - $40)...
I have a 150k mile N/a mk3 glof ( and an AAZ in the garage for a rebuild :wink: )
DD
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I came across a site based in the UK awhile ago that advocated just that: cutting off the shelf veg oil with diesel. I think the suggestion was no more than 30% in the summer, 10 in the winter. Try a google search under vegetable oil + diesel + mix (or some such). Sorry, I didn't bookmark it.
Cheers,
Andy
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$8.96 per US gallon. Mostly tax. This is why diesel tax fraud is a national sport over here.
:D :D :D :D :D
Amen to that.
Cool another local - I'm down on the coast south of Exeter...
Anyways short of a regular supply of red diesel (Not that I would advocate that of course :wink: ) can I just add veg oil ( & any particualer veg oil?) from the store to my tank - say a approx 25% mix when I fill up - even that would save me approx £15 - £20 a tank... ($30 - $40)...
I have a 150k mile N/a mk3 glof ( and an AAZ in the garage for a rebuild :wink: )
DD
canola oil or sunflower oil are among the best I think, soy oil is pretty good too from what ive heard
when it gets freezing only over the night and is close too or above freezing -3celsius when i start the car i have been blending 36-38% canola oil without any problems
in the summer I have been blending about 70% unused veggie oil
many people are running 50/50 without any problems(in the summer)
the limit to a good running engine is at about 85% veggie oil for vw, nissan kingcab and other swirl chambers (you can use 100% if you only heat the oil)
most mercedes can run on 100% veggie oil in the summer without any problem to start or run
in the winter I never blend, it gets down to -15celsius (5 Fahrenheit) sometimes more
doesn't work to blend at those temps, the vegoil blends are cloudy and plugs the fuel filter
in the great IDI engines with mechanical fuel pumps there is no need to blend only 25% the engines can handle a lot more without damage
however if the engine is bad already has bad compression or is worn out
vegoil use will make the engine give up a bit faster
TDI and other direct injection engines
some can handle as much as 25% vegoil some can't even handle that
and finally IDI with electrical injection pumps or lucas pumps
sometimes you look at vegoil and they are broken just like DI engines :roll:
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With regards to SVO being too thick without heating, has anybody tried thinning it down with paraffin? Kerosene for those over the pond. :wink: . On its own it has terrible lubricity, but with an octane of zero, that should be a good cetane value. Say 20% paraffin to 80% veg oil. Any good disaster stories? :D
THIS IS ONLY A QUESTION! DON'T DO THIS AT HOME!
--------------(boilingpoint) (viskositet 40c) (densitet) (flampunkt)
diesel ulsd _ 180-300C __ 1,9 cSt _____ 815kg/m3 _ >60C
diesel real__ 180-300C __ 4,2cSt ______ 845kg/m3 _ >60C
kerosene __ 150-300C __ 1,4cSt ______ 806kg/m3 _ >43C
this is my own research in my own country, many of us think that blending with ULSD is makes the engine run a bit better but it is is more expensive(many of us use the thick diesel oil)
the blend gets a bit thinner but the limit is still at about 85-86% vegoil on a swirlchamber engine
some tests say that blending 15% vegoil in parrafin gives back more lubricity than regular diesel has(can't confirm this)
Any good disaster stories?
well one time i spilled some vegoil on the ground lazy as I am i did't clean it up and "almost" slipped on it and sat on my behind :oops:
and another friend of mine tried to use 100% vegoil, the engine did´t start, we had to empty the fuel tank a bit and put in some diesel and empty out the fuel filter and put in diesel in it
after that it stated after a while...
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Diesel 4.49 per gallon here in Northern California. When my car is put back together I will be installing an SVO. Now is it better to buy a kit or do it yourself?
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I plan on buying a kit just because it is already fabricated for my model and engine. You can build your own set up but it might take longer as you have to find a way to keep the oil hot. Old propane tanks work well for the secondary tank.
Here's another of my concerns: I plan on buying a Greasecar setup but it uses the engine coolant ot heat the WVO. Is this okay for the engine? Since your are tapping into the coolant wouldn't this disrupt the cooling cycle of the engine?
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from what i've read there is no problem with the system being plugged in to the cooling system as long as the thermostat is good :wink:
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Here's another of my concerns: I plan on buying a Greasecar setup but it uses the engine coolant ot heat the WVO. Is this okay for the engine? Since your are tapping into the coolant wouldn't this disrupt the cooling cycle of the engine?
the only draw back is it will take longer for your car to get wamer and defrost the winshield in the winter , due to the larger amount of liquid being heated , both coolant and veg oil ( which will continue to pull heat out of the cooling system till it reaches engine temp ) .
you may want to run a wamer thermostat , like going from a 180 to a 190 .
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Say I just wanted to run diesel in the winter. I'm wondering if the coolant still makes its cycle to the veg oil tank whether using it or not. If not using veg oil it should shut off that artery and just use the regular system in my logic.
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actually i'd leave the coolant running through it , it will keep corosion to a minimum .
the mid 70's dodge trucks used a system of being able to turn off the heater cores in the winter , so no coolant was circulated through them when the heater was turned off , the result is roting out the heater core much sooner than a system that let coolant pass through it all the time .
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I plan on buying a kit just because it is already fabricated for my model and engine. You can build your own set up but it might take longer as you have to find a way to keep the oil hot. Old propane tanks work well for the secondary tank.
Here's another of my concerns: I plan on buying a Greasecar setup but it uses the engine coolant ot heat the WVO. Is this okay for the engine? Since your are tapping into the coolant wouldn't this disrupt the cooling cycle of the engine?
I too have been sitting on the fence on a WVO conversion (86 Jetta TD); but stumbled on special pricing that Elsbett is offering on their single tank VW MKII kits for $640 (+ $100 shipping) through July 15th (Mercedes are $100 more). This represents about a $500 discount, and I am thinking that now is the time to go ahead with this. Diesel is currently ranging from $4.89 to 5.15 per gallon and up in the SF Bay Area, Biodiesel is running around 5.25. The climate here is temperate, so I should be able to run a blend even during the winter.
Anyone here have experience with the Elsbett single tank conversion on a MKII TD engine? Please forgive me if this reads like an advertisement. I posted this temporary price because I think this is the least cost WVO conversion available at this time, and am looking for anecdotal input before I spend the money. I think this is cheaper than rolling my own, and Elsbett certainly has more expertise in this field than I am going to acquire myself.
In the long run I am considering a parking heater such as that made by Webasto to pre-heat the cooling system as I understand that a minimum engine temperature should be 70 degrees (for maximum engine life). These parking heaters are petro diesel powered remote controlled devices. I think that one of these will cost me a cool $1,000. But, it would be the ideal combination with a single tank WVO system. Total cost with an auxiliary petro diesel tank, Elsbett conversion, and Webasto parking heater, tank heater, line heater, should be under $2,000 if I do most of the work myself. When done, I should be able to run pure WVO all year round without having to think about it. I would also avoid having to install a large secondary tank in the trunk (the trunk is the reason I got the Jetta instead of a Golf)
Anybody out there have experience with the Webasto parking heater? Know of a wizard mechanic who can install one?
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--------------(boilingpoint) (viskositet 40c) (densitet) (flampunkt)
diesel ulsd _ 180-300C __ 1,9 cSt _____ 815kg/m3 _ >60C
diesel real__ 180-300C __ 4,2cSt ______ 845kg/m3 _ >60C
kerosene __ 150-300C __ 1,4cSt ______ 806kg/m3 _ >43C
Here goes I looking up centistokes! Could anyone define when diesel was last real? What viscosity was a Brit vw designed for in 1990? Thankyou mantajohan for an interesting find. :D
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ARRRGGGHHH!
One day I will suss out the right way to use the quote thingy. :oops: