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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: rackley on April 21, 2005, 05:00:56 pm
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Well I engaged 2nd gear today and my trans stopped the car dead from 30mph. All I have is a VERY rattly and clunky 3rd gear. So it's time to get rid of this highway-horrible AWY.
I see from earlier threads that the AGS is a good choice. But the only problem with that is there seem to be very few (if any) junkyards that have them (searching on www.car-part.com).
What other transmissions will fit? I can see from this page http://www.scirocco.org/gears/ that a bunch of the 8v transmissions have similar gearings...but will they actually fit my 91 Jetta...mate up to the engine, drive shafts, and shifting linkages? Will anything with a 90mm axle flange bolt up?
Thanks,
Ray
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That's kind of strange your car actually has a close ratio trans in it. I can see how it would be terrible on the freeway with the diesel. Do you know if you car car actually has 90mm cv's? Most of the A2's had 100mm cv's. The obvious difference between transmissions are the reverse light switch, the differential type, and input shaft size. Early transmissions like the FF are supposedly missing a mounting point which is required to bolt them into an A2, but starting with the 4K they changed the casting. So, a 4K, 9A, ACH, etc should fit. Stay away from 16v transmissions unless you want to switch to the 16v clutch disk as the input shaft on the trans is bigger. All of the 020 (75-99.5 4cyl exc new beetle, Passat 16v, and G60) will dimensionally bolt to your engine and accept your starter.
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:twisted: My dad exploded reverse in my AWY last night so I'm looking for a tranny too. Anybody in Ontario got something that'll work in a 92 Golf non-turbo?
Thanks, Steve
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:twisted: My dad exploded reverse in my AWY last night so I'm looking for a tranny too. Anybody in Ontario got something that'll work in a 92 Golf non-turbo?
Thanks, Steve
Judging by your choice of emoticon, I take it your dad's footing the bill for a new tranny.. perhaps one with a Quaife/Peloquin LSD, bolt kit, etc? :lol: J/K
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Well according to http://www.scirocco.org/gears/, the AWY has 90mm driveshafts.
Via Drew MacPherson (on the scirocco mailing list):
Here's a chart of transmission code and axle flanges (A2 transmissions) from the VW parts catalogue. There may be some aaplications missing, butI tried to cover most of them. I did not specify gas vs diesel, but I think as a ROT most gas transmissions in Dijifant applications (ie 100hp and up) are 100mm flanges, while most CIS and Diesel applications (85-90 hp) are 90mm flanges.
90 mm flange
Code (Application)
++++ ++++++++++++
ACN (07/84-09/86 GOLF)
(08/84-07/85 JETTA)
ACH (07/84-09/86 GOLF)
(08/84-07/85 JETTA)
AGS (08/86-07/87 GOLF)
(08/86-07/87 GOLF)
AOP (08/88-07/89 GOLF)
(10/87-07/88 JETTA)
AEN (11/87-07/88 JETTA)
ASF (09/87-05/88 GOLF)
(09/87-05/88 JETTA)
4S (08/87-08/88 JETTA)
AWY (08/89-07/91 GOLF)
(08/89-07/90 JETTA)
AVX (01/91-07/92 JETTA)
They don't list the 4k, so I don't know what year those were made.
So I'm thinking the ASF would be what I want. There's a ton of them out there and as such they're cheaper. Almost the same ratio at the ACH as well. Does that sound like it would bolt up right?
What do you mean 020?
Thanks
Ray
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020 is the housing style
I checked out the ASF but it has a 3.667 final drive. Regular diesels are 3.941 and the ecodiesel is 4.250
Steve
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I have a TD so I have a *little* bit of power, so I think I can get away with that gearing...
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I have a TD so I have a *little* bit of power, so I think I can get away with that gearing...
be careful of the 3.67 final drive transmissions with the diesels. They are hard to get the car going in first gear. Try to find a 3.89 or a 3.94 if you can. You could always do some mods and put an old 7D or 7A in it (.71 5th, really nice on the highway). The AGS is the transmission of choice for the A2 diesel, but like you said, they are hard to find. You can also try an AOP (but 4th gear is a bit low and there's a big gap between fourth and 5th) which has the same final drive as the AGS and the same 5th gear. Also the AVX looks good (4.25 final drive, 0.75 fifth, same gearing as the AGS).
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Can anyone else vouch for the 3.67's being hard to launch? I don't mean to sound skeptical, but it doesn't seem to me like it would make that big of a difference, especially in first gear. Plus, they're cheap :-)
Thanks,
Ray
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Can anyone else vouch for the 3.67's being hard to launch? I don't mean to sound skeptical, but it doesn't seem to me like it would make that big of a difference, especially in first gear. Plus, they're cheap :-)
Thanks,
Ray
I haven't noticed any problems with a 3.67, even with a normally asthmatic diesel. I'll be going back to the 3.67 final drive in mine, but switching to 185/60R13 tires at the same time.
It's a little taller in first, but not terribly so. Personally, I think 13.5:1 to the wheels is too low for first gear (that's 3.45*3.941), and all the transmissions with the 3.94:1 or 4.25:1 first gear tend to wind first out too quickly and have a tendency to spin wheels if you apply any significant power. With the 3.667 final drive, it's about 12.65:1 in first. That's not a huge difference, but it's noticeable. It still winds to high too fast in my opinion.
I do like 2nd with the 3.94:1 final drive, but I'm doing the hybrid close ratio 1st-3rd, tall 4th and 5th thing now, and the 2.12:1 second gear with the 3.667 final drive works really well.
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Is 300CDN a fair wrecker price for a 4S? I don't know what the mileage is on it but I imagine it is pretty high...I looked at two cars today with over 500K km on each of them by the looks of the bodies and spare IPs in the trunks. They didn't even have their origional engines anymore so I wasn't willing to buy a gearbox from them.
Maybe I'll try a gas transmission since I can get an entire car for 300. When I'm driving the AWY in my non-turbo I'll lug around in 5th gear doing 50 km/hr so I may enjoy having the gas gear ratio.
Anyone else running a gas gearbox?
Steve
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Is 300CDN a fair wrecker price for a 4S? I don't know what the mileage is on it but I imagine it is pretty high...I looked at two cars today with over 500K km on each of them by the looks of the bodies and spare IPs in the trunks. They didn't even have their origional engines anymore so I wasn't willing to buy a gearbox from them.
Maybe I'll try a gas transmission since I can get an entire car for 300. When I'm driving the AWY in my non-turbo I'll lug around in 5th gear doing 50 km/hr so I may enjoy having the gas gear ratio.
Anyone else running a gas gearbox?
Steve
$300 is pricey. I know a place here where you can snag a tranny for $200 and they have a bunch of 0.75 fifth gear ones there. I'm in Toronto though so its a long drive from Sudbury (I believe 6 hours). A 4S is a nice transmission though. Perfect for a diesel. I wonder if the guy knows what he is selling. Usually you can't give the AWYs away except as boat anchors, but the ones with the tall gearing are worth money.
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Chrissev: I'm all ears on where to get a good used transmission for that price. Woody's in Cobden is a VW place and so far he's the only person I talked to that knew the code of the transmission. He's also about the same distance from my place as Toronto. Everybody in Sudbury wants 350 for "whatever is in that there 92".
Is your contact pretty reliable? I don't want to show up in Toronto to find a grease ball transmission that's been to the moon and back after being told it only has 150K km on it. This is a pretty common practice from wreckers. :?
Cheers, Steve
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Chrissev: I'm all ears on where to get a good used transmission for that price. Woody's in Cobden is a VW place and so far he's the only person I talked to that knew the code of the transmission. He's also about the same distance from my place as Toronto. Everybody in Sudbury wants 350 for "whatever is in that there 92".
Is your contact pretty reliable? I don't want to show up in Toronto to find a grease ball transmission that's been to the moon and back after being told it only has 150K km on it. This is a pretty common practice from wreckers. :?
Cheers, Steve
The place I buy parts from is called Frisco. They have discount new stuff plus a garage full of used parts. Before you drive all the way out here, wait and I will call him on monday, or you can call, the number is (416) 736-9595 he will be able to give you a price but won't be able to tell you what transmissions he has probably. But if you call and you like his price, then I can always go over and see what he has, and tell you. His back garage is full of A2s waiting to be parted out and most of them are standard, plus he has about 50 transmissions sitting on the floor back there, a lot of 020s. I'd be very surprised if there wasn't one with the 0.75 fifth gear. The guy who runs the used parts area there is pretty good with knowing the condition of the stuff. He takes it out of the cars himself so he remembers where it came from.
Also you have to remember to put your search in context. You are looking for a transmission that is a minimum of 14 years old, and a lot of them are older. If you find one, out of a diesel VW that has 150,000km on it, I would say you are very lucky. Most of the good low mileage tranmissions that are available come from newer cars that have been in accidents. With 14 year old transmissions, they are either found in cars that have been sitting in the junkyard for years, or they come from cars that were recently driven, and are very high mileage. If it gives you any comfort, the AGS tranny in my jetta has almost 400,000km on it, and it still works, perfectly actually.
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Cool, I'll call Frisco on Monday as I should have my transmission out by then. I want to be able to bring my CV flanges and a couple of other parts with me so I know I come home with the right transmission. :wink: If they have a couple to chose between I will be picking it up on Tuesday, ordering seals for it, and putting it in ASAP.
You're right about the types of diesel VWs found at wreckers, especially in Sudbury as they keep getting crushed after having the vacuum pump and struts pulled. :x Realisticly I'd like another 100-200,000 km from my car before turning it into a spare and getting another daily driver. The SMART cars should be pretty cheap by then and if we're lucky we'll also be able to get the Lupo.
Steve
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a lupo would be amazing. I wish they would bring them to Canada. That would be my next car.
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I just called Frisco and was told they have nothing for a 92 VW diesel. Ah well, I don't like visiting the Zoo too often. :lol:
Steve
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Just went for my first trip with the AGS. I'm happyish to say that my car is now a gutless highway cruiser. All of my gears are shifted 1 position to the left so I'll have to figure that out before I use the car for work. Sooo, it took me from April 21st to May 10th to get things together. The first week was my pondering what to do, the second week was me pulling the gearbox and sealing up the new one, and the 3rd week was me doing nothing but waiting for decent reman axles so I could put in the AGS. Next week I tackle the timing belt and alternator pulley! :twisted:
Cheers, Steve
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Just went for my first trip with the AGS. I'm happyish to say that my car is now a gutless highway cruiser. All of my gears are shifted 1 position to the left so I'll have to figure that out before I use the car for work. Sooo, it took me from April 21st to May 10th to get things together. The first week was my pondering what to do, the second week was me pulling the gearbox and sealing up the new one, and the 3rd week was me doing nothing but waiting for decent reman axles so I could put in the AGS. Next week I tackle the timing belt and alternator pulley! :twisted:
Cheers, Steve
the t-belt is easy. Main things to remember are:
#1. the flywheel has two notches in it. One indicates TDC, the other indicates TDC minus 180 degrees. The notch you want has the little "0" beside it.
#2. The injection pump locking pin is almost useless. To get the pump pulley in the right place you have to hold it at TDC with your hand.
#3. Everyone will tell you to do this, and you will try, and say it is too hard, and not bother doing it, then you will destroy your engine. So, DO take the cam pulley off, don't take it off by using the cam locking tool to lock the cam then putting pressure on the cam bolt, instead use the timing belt to lock the cam and get the bolt off that way, and do use a puller to take the cam pulley off, not a hammer. If you just leave the cam pulley in place and put the new belt on, you will not be able to line up the crank and cam pulleys and the timing will be off enough to cause piston/valve contact. This is because all timing belts are a little different. (I'm not lying...I did this to a 79 rabbit I had and caused piston/valve contact. Since then, I always take the cam pulley off when I replace the t-belt).
Have fun. It shouldn't take you that long (unless your car has poor compression, in which case you will not be able to get the crank pulley to remain in the same place while you are putting the belt on...time for a rebuild)
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Just went for my first trip with the AGS. I'm happyish to say that my car is now a gutless highway cruiser.
Gutless? I guess yours isn't a turbo then? AGS works best on turbo cars. If you drive at 130km/hr like I do, your engine will be revving at 3300 rpm, which gives you some guts. Or alternatively just leave it in fourth gear and you have the equivalent of a close ratio fifth gear.
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Chrissev, do you think you could find out for me if frisco has an ATH tranny lying around?
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:twisted: My dad exploded reverse in my AWY last night so I'm looking for a tranny too. Anybody in Ontario got something that'll work in a 92 Golf non-turbo?
Thanks, Steve
He has a non-turbo.
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Rackley:
Sorry about hijacking your thread...what did you end up doing with your car?
If you aren't done fixing it up I highly recommend replacing all of the shifter components before you reinstall the gearbox. I'd also recommend paying the hours labour to have the seals done on the gearbox because it took me several hours to do it since I had to swap the hubs out of the old box (hubs in AGS were worn out and AWY hubs were stuck on). I used a 3 foot long sliding c-clamp meant for woodworking to reinstall the hubs. The AWY also had better designed spring washers for the axle clips so I swapped them into the AGS. One last thing, when you remove the hubs check the brass cones and swap them as necessary too. The shop I bought the gearbox from told me to do this and as it turned out one of those brass things was busted into several pieces.
Timing is going to be difficult for me because the TDC pointer was damaged by either a blown differential or a clutch that fell off. I'm not sure which it was...but by no means think that Woody ripped me off on this gearbox. I told him I wanted an AGS and he only had the one so that's what he gave me. If I told him I wanted his best low mileage 020 he would have given that to me instead. He's a great guy to deal with and he had all of the seals I needed in stock at a good price.
Cheers, Steve
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Timing is going to be difficult for me because the TDC pointer was damaged by either a blown differential or a clutch that fell off. I'm not sure which it was...but by no means think that Woody ripped me off on this gearbox. I told him I wanted an AGS and he only had the one so that's what he gave me. If I told him I wanted his best low mileage 020 he would have given that to me instead. He's a great guy to deal with and he had all of the seals I needed in stock at a good price.
Cheers, Steve
The pointer is at 9:00 in the viewing hole. If it is gone, just find 9:00 and draw one in yourself.
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I still haven't done anything with the car, it's up on jacks in the garage. I'm waiting for the next paycheck to roll in before I pick up the AGS. Just dreading doing that stupid clutch cable!
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The clutch cable is a piece of cake. On the outside you just lift the lever up and remove the cable clip that is held on by gravity. Then you move on to the inside. On the inside all you do is remove the plastic shield under the dash and pop the end of the cable off the pedal. From what I have heard the manual cables are better so that is what I used to replace my auto cable. After you have it in take a guess at the freeplay and go for a drive. Then do the final adjustment. It shouldn't take more than half an hour no matter how hard you try to waste time.
FWIW, the AOP has a better reverse switch and is a couple years newer than the AGS. Whatever you buy, grab the wiring pigtail just in case.
Steve
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How long did it take you to do the trans swap total?
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I'm going to guess 10 hours but I wasted a lot of time being stubborn.
If you've got a Bentley add the following steps to the list:
-use jackstands, ramps will make it a real pain to undo CV hub bolts (buy the Snap-On tool!!!)
-powerwash everything from every angle
-drain gearbox overnight
-drain coolant and remove metal pipe
-leave the two horizontal gearbox mount bolts and metal bracket on the transmission
-undo axle shafts, cover inner CV joints with plastic bags, undo engine-tranny bolts, rotate gearbox so that differential is sticking straight up
-push engine over to passenger side of car and remove gearbox
The key to the R/R is getting the diff facing up and out of the way of the axles.
Steve
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I replaced all my CV bolts with bolts from McMaster that are standard hex head bolts. MUCH MUCH MUCH easier to take on and off.
Thanks for the tips.
Do you mean rotate the diff/trans so that the hubs are pointing up and down? So the trans would be vertical? Sounds like a mean feat to do with a jack :-)
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The gearbox only weighs under 80 pounds so you won't need a jack for it. You will need a jack for the engine because you undo all of the mounts (I used a motorcycle jack which is pretty much a transmission jack). You rotate the gearbox about the input shaft so that you can then pull the thing away from the engine far enough to clear the clutch. You can't pull the transmission away from the engine without doing this because the drivers axle is in the way. To remove the transaxle I grabbled hold of the transaxle mount from above, rotated it, and then dropped it on the floor when I had it clear of the clutch. To get it back in I put it on my chest and crawled under the car with it. Benching it is interesting but you ought to wear a helmet or something incase you drop it on your face.
Steve
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Yeah I did a trans before but it was on a RWD Miata so it was parallel with the car/driveline. Lots of room to maneuver. The hardest part was getting the damn thing to line up with the shaft and go in all the way. I would get it about 80% in but it wasn't *quite* right...so the input shaft was hooked in, but I couldn't drop it to rest because it wasn't quite right...talk about newfound endurance :-)
I'm using an engine hoist for the engine... but I can already see my biggest problem for this thing is probably going to be clearance on the passenger side. I'd like to use a jack if at all possible, but it doesn't sound like it will be.
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I guess you already made your mind up on a replacement but,
I did the swap and used an ACH, bolted right in.
I love it, nice gear spacing and good top end speed.
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Well I got the replacement trans and the caps were jacked up on both drive flanges. One of the circlips is also a bit messed up... can I leave this as-is or should I spring for yet another VW special tool? (ugh)
It looks like the drive flange may have been compressed and the clip just slipped slightly out of position judging by the apparent imprint of where you can see it used to sit. I tried moving it around with a screwdriver and it isn't going anywhere.
Good circlip:
(http://www.vocontrol.com/jetta/IMG_1750.jpg)
"Bad" one?
(http://www.vocontrol.com/jetta/IMG_1752.jpg)
Thoughts?
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I'd like to see you replace the c-clip (tho I've done this when tranny was on, you don't want to do it out in 'the-bush')
I made a custom tool, but did many with metal bars and the long starter bolts to compress the spring. Threaded rod improves the process considerably.
my custom tool is just a bar with stand-offs that allows you room to work when compressed.
Sorry I don't have pics, as I lent it out and it hasn't come home yet.
janb
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A cheesy way to do that without a 'special' tool is to use a ratchet-strap and wrap it around both flanges and tighten it down. That usually compresses it enough to pop out the circlip. Oh, and it looks like someone opened up that circlip too much and bent it. You can pop it off, close it up some with some pliers, and carefully snap it back on and you should be good to go.
Brendan
84 Scirocco 8v
00 Camaro L36 M49
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The clips come with the new seals and caps you ought to be putting in. You'll also get a chance to inspect the 4 hubs and decide which ones you want to put into the transmission.
Steve
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Thanks for the advice everyone. I sprung (har har...ok maybe not) for the tool and a pair of two flange seals/clips/caps kits.
Is there anything in particular I should look for on the flanges besides just general wear and tear when I pick which ones to use?
Thanks,
Ray
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Argh, I just can't catch a break with this darned car can I. As I'm rotating the axle flanges trying to get the flange out of this junkyard trans, I hear the dreaded mechanical grinding/clunking sound coming from it. Sure enough, every gear it has a constant mechanical friction and noise and a regular "catch" that you need some extra oomph to get over. Stick the magnetic picker into the speedo cable hole, and it comes out with some metal shavings that are thin as a flake but about 2-3mm square. Rotate the flange and stir things up and it comes up with more. And more. And more.
Grumble.. Garage is getting full of broken junk VW parts. Hopefully the yard will give me a refund on the thing. Although if they do it's still $100 in shipping down the tubes. Grumble some more...
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Thanks for the advice everyone. I sprung (har har...ok maybe not) for the tool and a pair of two flange seals/clips/caps kits.
Is there anything in particular I should look for on the flanges besides just general wear and tear when I pick which ones to use?
Thanks,
Ray
yeah on the flanges look for a groove worn into the flange where the flange contacts the seal. If your flange has this, you will need to replace it as just replacing the seal will not cure the leaking.
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Hmm. Picked up a 2nd ASF transmission. This one turns super easy, I can turn the flanges in every gear with just 3 fingers on the input shaft. There's only one problem...when I move the gear selector lever into 5th and turn the input shaft, the flanges don't turn at all. It's like it's in neutral. But if I turn the flanges, the input shaft turns.
What gives? Is there any reason why 5th may not engage right (trans off car, almost no fluid in it), or should I pull it apart while it's already off the car and easier to work on?
If there's a possible explanation for this, then I don't want to pull it apart to look at 5th since that means ordering a new gasket, which means waiting until sometime next week, and I'd like to have this badboy bolted up by Monday if possible.
Ray
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Hmm. Picked up a 2nd ASF transmission. This one turns super easy, I can turn the flanges in every gear with just 3 fingers on the input shaft. There's only one problem...when I move the gear selector lever into 5th and turn the input shaft, the flanges don't turn at all. It's like it's in neutral. But if I turn the flanges, the input shaft turns.
What gives? Is there any reason why 5th may not engage right (trans off car, almost no fluid in it), or should I pull it apart while it's already off the car and easier to work on?
If there's a possible explanation for this, then I don't want to pull it apart to look at 5th since that means ordering a new gasket, which means waiting until sometime next week, and I'd like to have this badboy bolted up by Monday if possible.
Ray
might just be the difference in gearing. ASF has a 1.03 4th and a 0.75 fifth, so there is a big space. Try turning with a wrench or something to give you more torque and see if it moves
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Well the input shaft spins freely, just like neutral, when in 5th. I did some searching on the vortex forums since 020 transes are used in tons of cars from there, and they have a wealth of trans knowledge in the trans forums. Unfortuantely, I turned up this article in the FAQ:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=675090#6040979
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Well the input shaft spins freely, just like neutral, when in 5th. I did some searching on the vortex forums since 020 transes are used in tons of cars from there, and they have a wealth of trans knowledge in the trans forums. Unfortuantely, I turned up this article in the FAQ:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=675090#6040979
hmmm, but you say if you turn the flanges in fifth, the imput shaft turns. I still think it's probably just the difference in gearing. You'd have to turn the flanges pretty fast to get the imput shaft to turn in fifth, but if you turn the imput shaft, the flanges should turn really fast. But you'd need a lot of torque on the imput shaft to do that.
oh well, hope your unit isn't broken. that would be a shame. Reminds me to keep checking my fluid as mine is leaking out the gear selector hole.
Just for interest's sake, how do you know it is in fifth? I'm trying to visualize how the linkage works on those things... is fifth when the top selector is pushed all the way in, and the bottom one is pushed to the left?
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Well it's officially toast. I took off the 5th gear housing and 5th gear is wobbly loose on the pinion shaft and although it is lightly connected (hence turning the flanges turns the input shaft), if you take a finger and press on 5th gear and turn the flange, the pinion shaft spins in the center of 5th and the gear itself doesn't move execpt for a little bit of wiggling as it rides over the melted/burnt out splines.
I knew it was 5th because if you look at the shifter you have 4 gears "up" and 2 "down". If you play with the selector, you have 4 gears to the "left" or drivers side and 2 to the right. One of the end gears (the furthest forward) makes the big reverse "clunk" when engaging. So the opposite side must be 5th. You can also kind of eyeball the flange speed while turning the input flange by hand and switching the gears to see which gear is which.
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Pull the end off the first tranny. You might find a fifth that's good enough to swap into that trans.
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what fifth is it? you might want to put in a nice .71 fifth for the highway.
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Well it is the .71 fifth already.. and in terms of swapping them, that was one of my first thoughts but then I'd need to plunk down for more even MORE VW special tools (funny how VW has so many special tools, yet I've done much more extensive work to my Miata and have yet to buy a SINGLE mazda special tool).
On the other hand, I just called the yard and they had a 2nd ASF that they're going to ship me at no charge. :-)
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Just an update on the ASF. I drove it about 600 miles so far and it's great. It doesn't chirp the wheels in first (but then again, the car is probably only putting down 60 some HP) but it drives great. In fifth gear on the freeway I'm getting 46mpg with my 1.6TD. City is about 38. It still has suprisingly good pull in 5th gear, although I won't be making any passing attempts with it. Power in the other gears is mediocre overall, but then again it isn't hooked to a 300hp power plant either :-)
Thanks,
Ray