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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: riddleyo on March 29, 2008, 02:43:26 pm

Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: riddleyo on March 29, 2008, 02:43:26 pm: Hello,

I bought my vw diesel golf 1.6 N/A with a bad cylinder head. I replaced the cylinder head with a 11mm head but had the bolt holes drilled out to 12mm.

Today, I put everything back together and timed the IP following Vince Waldon's site and the bentley manual. I set the tension so that I can turn the belt between the camshaft pulley and the injection pump pulley about 45 degrees. I torqued the camshaft pulley to 36 ft/lbs. My problem is, as I turn the crankshaft with my ratchet, nothing is binding, but the timing belt with run off track after 1 or 2 turns!! My pictures are worth a thousand words:

Right after I put the Timing belt on:
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/xedice/CIMG0271.jpg)

After 2 revolutions, IP pulley tracking off:
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/xedice/CIMG0273.jpg)

(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/xedice/CIMG0274.jpg)

After 2 revolutions, Intermediate shaft ridges tearing timing belt:
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/xedice/CIMG0275.jpg)

Does anyone know whats wrong? Does my 11mm head stick the camshaft pulley too far out causing the tracking problems? How do I fix this so when I start it, my timing belt doesn't shred and destroy the engine!??
Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: zukgod1 on March 29, 2008, 03:59:35 pm: looks to me like your IP is sitting crooked.

Bent bracket of IP is somehow cocked in the bracket, maybe not bolted to head square..
Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: burn_your_money on March 29, 2008, 07:07:08 pm: Is there play in the IM shaft pulley? This would indicate worn out IM bearings which will also give you low oil pressure

Did you have this problem with the old head?
Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: Quantum TD on March 29, 2008, 09:40:08 pm: As noted above: I'd say check for bent bracket. I've never experienced one myself, but there have been reports of bent brackets here on the GTD.

As burn notes, check Intermediate shaft, maybe also check your injection pump for play at the input shaft.

Those three are bout the only things I can think of that would cause the runout, unless your camshaft were bent. But I don't think you'd see that much runout on a bent camshaft.
Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: fatmobile on March 30, 2008, 01:42:07 am: Loosen the tensioner and grab the injection pump sprocket. Move it side to side, see how much play it has.
Is the pump completly bolted down? because the sprocket looks slanted compared to the bracket,... kinda from the top view.
Good thing you turned it by hand first. :thumbup
Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: Dsldub on March 30, 2008, 04:46:08 am: edited for content
Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: myke_w on March 30, 2008, 08:22:15 am: So, you bought the car with a bad head... like as in the belt shredded and bent valves?

I've seen this very thing caused by a worn pump bushing because of over tightening of the belt and eventually the edge of the belt shreds up and the owner doesnt know until the car stops, belt breaks, bends valves, etc.

So you gotta take the belt back off and rock the pump gear and the int shaft pulley side to side like these guys are suggesting... I've heard of the bent mount theory, but never seen it personally, I think to bend that mount you'd need gargantuan strength, catastrophic accident damage or a lot of torch heat. It doesn't bend on it's own I assure you. The whole length of it is curved on the edges, its one tough mother.

Keep us posted..
Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: riddleyo on March 30, 2008, 07:28:55 pm: I tried jerking around the pulleys, there is no play in the IM shaft pulley or the IP pulley. It didn't look like the IP bracket was bent, but I will take it apart and put a straight edge on it to see...

The pump was completely bolted down, I tightened the bolts pretty tight.

The previous owner said the cyl head was bad when I bought it. After I took it all apart, I found that some of the cam followers were stuck inside their bores. After taking them out with a hammer and magnet, they broke and some of the cam follower pieces look welded to the cylinder head! I haven't checked for bent valves, I just got another cylinder head and rebuilt it and put it on.

I will try taking everything apart, checking for play, doing what the tech service bulletin says, and post again after I get it back together.

Thanks!
Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: rabbitman on March 31, 2008, 01:20:44 am: I had that problem only not nearly as bad. Putting a straight edge across all the pulley's should tell you what's up, but when I did it I missed the play in the IP shaft the first time, it got so bad I couldn't stand driving it 'cause the belt was starting to hang over the pulley so I checked every thing again and the IP play wasn't much but that was all it took.
Try putting your thumbs at 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock on the IP pulley and then rocking it back and forth, I know you did this but I can't see any other reason for it running so far off track. Hope you figure it out. :)
Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: Dsldub on March 31, 2008, 05:00:21 am: edited for content
Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: Black Smokin' Diesel on March 31, 2008, 04:33:52 pm: Looks like your IP pulley isn't straight. Try loosening it and retightening it to spec. I had the same problem and it was the pulley.

You can also get a intermediate shaft pulley from a later 1.6 or 1.9, it doesn't have raised edges.
Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: rabbitman on March 31, 2008, 04:50:26 pm: I just noticed mine is heading off center again also :evil: Maybe I need to have someone else tighten the belt for me. :oops: sorry I almost stole the thread :roll:
Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: subsonic on March 31, 2008, 07:06:54 pm: The key all good?
Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: burn_your_money on March 31, 2008, 09:21:17 pm: the tensioner bolt is straight?
Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: Torchd on April 01, 2008, 04:34:42 am: The tensioner stud mite be loose... or bent... a loose stud messed up three of my timing belts!
Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: riddleyo on April 02, 2008, 05:48:43 pm: Ok, here is my journey to get my timing belt straight:

First I took everything apart and checked if my bracket was bent. It wasn't:
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/xedice/TimingBeltSolution1.jpg)

Next, I checked my tensioner stud, pretty straight (I installed this from my old head):
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/xedice/TimingBeltSolution2.jpg)

Then I pushed the left side of this bracket down, and the right side up, according to the directions in the Tech Bulletin:
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/xedice/TimingBeltSolution3.jpg)

Then I found something! I stripped one of nuts on the bracket and I didn't know it until I threaded a bolt in and it just turned round and round. So I took a dremel and vice grips to get the nut off:
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/xedice/TimingBeltSolution4.jpg)

I replaced all the allen bolts with hex bolts because I hate fiddling with allen wrenches. I used a nut and bolt in the hole where I stripped the threads:
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/xedice/TimingBeltSolution6.jpg)

I cleaned the seating surfaces of the injection pump to ensure straight seating:
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/xedice/TimingBeltSolution7.jpg)

Put it all back together, rotated the crank about 4 times, timed it to .0405 inches, or 1.028mm Vince Waldon style (I have turbo diesel injectors with Mercedes nozzles in my N/A). Then I rotated it again to make sure it didn't bind at all:
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/xedice/TimingBeltSolution8.jpg)

Not sure which step fixed it, but it's fixed, thanks for everyone's help. I'm going to make a post about the whole engine rebuild soon, so stay tuned.
Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: riddleyo on April 02, 2008, 05:52:21 pm: By the way, does anybody know what this part is? I have no idea where it goes:

(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/xedice/Whatpartisthis.jpg)
Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: Quantum TD on April 02, 2008, 06:15:05 pm: It's the engine lift bracket. It mounts to the pass side of the head. It's usually bolted with an allen bolt thru the timing cover. You should see the hole near the top of the cover where the bolt goes thru.
Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: Vanagoner on April 02, 2008, 08:17:30 pm: Thanks Rid- I'm working the same tracking problem on my caddy, and this helps.
Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: burn_your_money on April 02, 2008, 09:40:40 pm: Glad to hear you got it solved. Thanks for posting the pictures
Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: Torchd on April 03, 2008, 01:13:54 am: Good to know that ur problem is solved!!!

Injectors from which merc have u installed? and what kinda difference has that made..
Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: riddleyo on April 03, 2008, 01:26:45 pm: Quote from: "Torchd"
Good to know that ur problem is solved!!!

Injectors from which merc have u installed? and what kinda difference has that made..

I don't know. I just bought them from prothe from his website:
http://www.dieselvw.com/16TDMercedesInjector.htm

I haven't gotten the car running yet, so I don't even know what performance difference it will make (or if it will even run)...
Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: jtanguay on April 03, 2008, 02:14:37 pm: the injectors that prothe sells are good. so far i have more than 1000 km's on them and the car runs fine. only problem was the dribbling... what are the bodies supposed to be torqued to? i'll have to remove them and torque the bodies. that might be one thing you want to check. its not too serious, but it is something to look at. the price is definitely right on these :wink:
Title: Timing Belt keeps coming off track (no 56k, Problem Solved!)
Post by: zukgod1 on April 04, 2008, 08:16:58 am: Quote from: "Torchd"
Good to know that ur problem is solved!!!

Injectors from which merc have u installed? and what kinda difference has that made..

I have those nozzles installed, prob have about 1500 miles on them so far.

Seem to be fine. I have plenty of power but I have nothing to compair it to as it's a new engine in a car I never drove before.
I've had a couple different injectors but the first set was a huge set with CASE nozzles in them, I couldn't get it to idle so I switched to Prothe's Merc tipped injectors. Turned out my idle woes were caused by my pump being miss timed. All better now and thinking of installing the other injectors to see what up, waiting for some new heat shields to get here first.