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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: westcoaster on March 08, 2008, 09:35:24 pm
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A guy might have difficulty timing the engine with this, would there be any other reason not to use this cam? Oil pressure perhaps?
edit: it's an '87 1.6 td
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f328/Westcoasterz/camMar820080092.jpg)
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How the hell did that happen? :shock: I wouldn't run it like that, but I'm hardly an expert. Is the other part still floating around inside? It could probably be repaired without too much hassle.
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i've seen cars run with even more damaged cams then that, but you should be able to find a cheap replacement rather than take the chance.
isn't that the thrust bearing end? it may eventually wear the bearing cap and then the whole head is toast.
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How the hell did that happen? :shock: I wouldn't run it like that, but I'm hardly an expert. Is the other part still floating around inside? It could probably be repaired without too much hassle.
The other piece is not floating about in there so I would guess the lid was off when it happened. Someone used the cam lock to undo the bolt on the other end? (or tighten?)
I got the motor, ran it for a day, figured out it has "issues" and pulled it out.
I have requests for quotes on another cam floating about out there. I'll see what they come back as on Monday.
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Ahh. F--- it. It's fine. So long as the cips aren't floating around it's fine. You can still time it like that. Honestly, I use the cam lock plate to loosen the cam bolt all the time. I've never had a problem. But I guess that there are those meatheads out there that overtoque the crap out of them.
If you do go with a replacement cam, there are only two different cams for the 1.6 IDI and turbo. There's one cam for mechanical lifters, and one for hydraulic. There is no difference between NA and turbo.
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The cam in my NA golf was worse than this. The entire end was missing and the cam would walk side to side. Never had an issue for the 30 000km I owned it.
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Well what is the correct tool to use for holding the cam to tighten and loosen?
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One version looks like this guy below the Crescent wrench:
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/vwaldon/sprocketholder.jpg)
In use it looks like this:
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/vwaldon/sprocket_holding_tool.jpg)
I think it was $15 at the local tool jobber... not the best quality but one of tools that "you don't need often, but when you need it it's gold".
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sweet...thanks for the info guys....I never saw a sprocket holder. I always just used the cam tool, and never thought much of it because 33ft/lbs doesnt seem like that much to me. But after your comments, Andrew, I went out and torqued mine down to 45ft/lbs on the TD im putting in my Caddy today.
Man I hate that whole VW waterpump crap......how many different combinations of pulley diameters with offsets and outlet sizes and whatever....makes taking a motor from one car and putting it in a totally different car a pain. Well not a pain, but its one of those details I totally overlooked until today.
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It's interesting your use of "meathead" when referring to over-torgueing the cam sprocket and yet you use the camlock for loosening and tightening...
Andrew
I'm not sure what edition of the MK 1 Bentley manual you have, but in my 1986 Edition here are the steps for installing a new timing belt (pgs 5: 17-18 ):
"To install and adjust drive belt:
1. If you have not done so, lock the camshaft (with special tool 2065 cam lock tool) and the injection pump in the No. 1 cylinder positions as shown previously in Fig 5.2 and Fig. 5.3.
2. Check that the flywheel TDC mark is still correctly aligned with the pointer.
3. Loosen the camshaft sprocket bolt one turn. Then loosen the sprocket from the camshaft tapered end by tapping the sprocket with a rubber hammer.
Then later
7. Torque the camshaft sprocket bolt to 45 Nm (33 ft.lb). Then remove the locking tool from the camshaft.
The same exact procedure is outlined in the MK 2 Bentley manual on Page 6: 16-17.
The same exact procedure is outlined in the MK 3 Bentley manual for the 1.9 IDI on pages 23a: 9-10.
The same exact procedure is outlined in the MK 3 Bentley manual for the 1.9 TDI on pages 23b: 8-9.
In no instance is there ANY mention of needing a separate camshaft sprocket tool in ANY Bentley manual, until you get to the MK IV TDI, which has a unique and delicate camshaft lock area, due to the adaptation for the vacuum pump.
So, how am I a meathead (as you insinuate) for following the instructions in the Bentley manual?
I've used the camshaft lock tool when I've loosened/torqued the cam bolt on every timing job I've ever done (about 4 dozen for my own cars and customers). I've also only torqued the bolt to the proper specs (but I do have my wrenches calibrated every 16 months). I've yet to have any problem. In some instances I have followed the Bentely specs for torque values, but have added an extra 20-30 degrees of turn afterwards (final value is about 36-38 ft.lbs).
P.S. The meatheads I was referring to, are the ones that use an impact wrench to put the cam sprocket on.
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Me? I use a piece of 1/8 inch lead flashing around a cam lobe, and a decent sized adjustable spanner. No disasters yet. :twisted:
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i bet if you used a cam lock tool with some 'slop' to it, it might wreck the camshaft end. i bought a kit from a German seller on ebay and the kit was great. the camshaft locking tool was very tight (needed some taps to install it) and I don't recall needing any other special tools to install/remove the sprocket (andy2 helped me out). however if you don't have the right locking plate, then don't trust it.
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i bet if you used a cam lock tool with some 'slop' to it, it might wreck the camshaft end. i bought a kit from a German seller on ebay and the kit was great. the camshaft locking tool was very tight (needed some taps to install it) and I don't recall needing any other special tools to install/remove the sprocket (andy2 helped me out). however if you don't have the right locking plate, then don't trust it.
I have the same tool, probably from the same guy (part of a kit that included the lock pin and the dial indicator?). Tap it in, and it locks it tight. There's no need for feeler gauges jammed in there. As long as there isn't 100 ft.lbs of torque on the bolt, it comes out no problem every time.
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Positioned correctly, a mammoth Crescent wrench can grab an available lobe of the cam and not damage the working surface:
(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/vwaldon/cam_hold_wrench.jpg)
For me, the $15 tool was cheap insurance against scratching the cam *or* busting the end off it.
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I can honestly say that I have personally been a meathead on many occasions. I didn't mean to offend and so, likely it was a meathead move on my part that I even posted my previous post and possibly this one. Again, I appreciate your posts here and I'm sure others do as well and I apologize if I came off harshly.
No problem: no offense taken. Just a knee jerk reaction.
I think in the end it all comes down to experience (as you note). I've had situations when loosening the cam bolt, where I knew that the bolt was torqued well beyond a 'normal' range of about 33-55 ft.lbs: more in the range of 60-90 ftlbs. In those instances, I've been a bit leery about holding the cam with the lock plate, but did so anyway without ill repercussions. I happen to have a really nice 'custom' lock plate, that fits in really snug (noted by Vince), which has served me well (knock on wood). I'm sure the first time I snap the tail off a camshaft, will be the last time, as I convert to using a cam wrench. I just prefer the ease of the lock plate, and it's apparently standard procedure.
As for the final torque value, I agree that overtorquing is not all that bad, so long as you don't take it too far (beyond say 50 ft.lbs). As I noted, I usually go a bit beyond the 33 ft.lbs specified by Bentley. I've been doing it alot more recently, just because it 'feels' like it wants to take some more, not because of any bad experiences. It's never a ton more, just a little extra oomph at the end, to seal the deal. I've often had to go back to a TB job I've done (not for any mistakes, usually because the pump has started to leak months after the job). At 33-50 ft.lbs. I've yet to have a problem getting the bolt or the cam off.
The main reason I think I eschew the cam wrench, is that I've already got too much invested in goofy VW specific tools, and don't want to buy/fabricate another. It's bad enough that VW had to change the locking tools for the ALH motor, but then you have to buy a load of new tools to lock the crank, remove the crank bolt, etc. I've already got about $500-1000 in VW tools, and I need to buy even more. :twisted:
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.......... So,
It's bad to hammer the bolt ON with an impact wrench,
How about taking it off?
I simply grabbed the cam sprocket with my hand and zipped the bolt out with the impact gun.... Cam didn't move.
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Vice grips on the shaft will work as well! Sort of like Vince had his adjustable positioned, just not on the lobes.
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Just to add another tool for holding the cam, I used a smaller pipe wrench on the shaft.
Also I torqued the cam bolt to 33 ft lbs...it does seem low...
Have done 15-20,000 km since then with no probs. Might torque it up to 45 just for peace of mind. [/quote]
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Hummm.....
At $595 for a brand new cam shaft I think I'll make this one work for me one way or another..... :cry:
But on the bright side I could buy another used engine for about the same price and have a bunch of spare parts.....
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Camshafts shouldn't cost that much. I think Frank at Franks TDIs in MO can get them for about $100-200. The hydro camshaft is the same across all applications (Na and TD), and the same is true for the mechanical camshaft.
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if anybody needs a cam 026109101g I can do them for 125 shipped to lower 48..
;)
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Busdepot lists the hydro camshaft for $125. 026109101g
Andrew
Are you sure that's the right part number? I just checked my ETKA and it lists it as a 068 109 101L. That part number is for a 1.8 or 2.0 CIS gasser. Do they interchange?
The only reason I'm being incredulous, is because (as fate would have it), I am now in need of a hydro camshaft.
I found out what can happen when you over torque the camshaft sprocket.
I tried to pop of the cam gear from a 1987 Golf. It was on there really tight. In the end, I had to hold the sprocket, and use an impact wrench (not something I'm fond of). Once I got the bolt out, the cam gear did not want to come off. I set a punch through the punch hole, and hit it numerous times with a heavy hammer. It just kept peening the back of the gear and putting a dent in it. Finally, I gave up and decided to hit the tin timing cover guard that came on the 1985-up cars with my rubber mallet. After a couple of heavy whacks, the gear came off. But, it took the end of the camshaft with it. I've never seen that happen in my life. Lucky me.
So, if anyone has a spare hydro camshaft they're not using...
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I just spoke with Frank at Franks TDIs, and he claims the 1997-1998 1.9 AHU TDI camshft is considerably similar, with the only real difference being slightly more lift on the 1.9 TDI camshaft=more power. I'm wiling to try that, since my supplier does not seem to carry the 1.6 NA camshaft anymore (used to).
Thoughts?
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I tried to pop of the cam gear from a 1987 Golf. It was on there really tight. In the end, I had to hold the sprocket, and use an impact wrench (not something I'm fond of). Once I got the bolt out, the cam gear did not want to come off. I set a punch through the punch hole, and hit it numerous times with a heavy hammer. It just kept peening the back of the gear and putting a dent in it. Finally, I gave up and decided to hit the tin timing cover guard that came on the 1985-up cars with my rubber mallet. After a couple of heavy whacks, the gear came off. But, it took the end of the camshaft with it. I've never seen that happen in my life. Lucky me.
Thats why I use a bearing puller. You can actually make one yourself using 3 long bolts/nuts and a flat bar of metal.
One caution. Last weekend I was taking off the Injection pump gear off the injection pump with my puller. I tighten up the puller pretty tight and the gear was pretty rusted on. I set my ratchet down and put my face up to the gear to get a closer look to see if I was damaging the gear surface. All the sudden, BAM! That gear popped off like a ***ing rocket! Almost gave me a black eye, but I jumped away just in time. But, no damage to the gear or IP! Pullers beat hammers any day!
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if anybody needs a cam 026109101g I can do them for 125 shipped to lower 48..
;)
What would it be shipped to western Canada?
Thanks,
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sorry, the 026 109 101 g is the gasser one, the 068 109 101L number is correct for the hydraulic diesel idi cam, the 068 gives it away