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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: jackbombay on March 30, 2005, 08:56:03 pm
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Here is a pic of my engine bay which was vacated today by the gasser that used to live there, Anyone want to buy a 5 cylinder Gasser?
(http://img148.exs.cx/img148/6466/dsc004821jh.jpg)
Here is a pic of the 2.0 L 5 banger Audi TD that will take its place :D
(http://img55.exs.cx/img55/6391/dsc004847ge.jpg)
Maybe 2 weeks to have it in the car, I need a new clutch and the flywheel needs resurfacing, plus there are a few other fissues to work out, battey needs to go somewhere else, fuel tank filler neck needs to be replaced with Diesel sized one, fuel line/fuel pump removal...
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sweet... AWD TD... i love it.
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sweet... AWD TD... i love it.
To give it its full name: :shock: QAWD TD :shock:
:mrgreen: Sounds like a dyslexic HiFi Television; but a Bang & Olufsen to those that know :mrgreen:
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Jack,
I've pulled the prime mover from my Quantum TD and stripped it to a husk. If you are short any little bits and pieces, let me know.
By the way, -- v. cool project 8)
moT
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That is SO right! :D
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Jack,
I've pulled the prime mover from my Quantum TD and stripped it to a husk. If you are short any little bits and pieces, let me know.
By the way, -- v. cool project 8)
moT
I've got most of the Quantum bits I need, but there are a couple bits I need for the Audi motor that are difficult to locate.
There is a female threaded fitting on the vaccum pump that is about 3/4 of an inch, the other end needs to be barbed for the large vac line that runs to the brake booster :?
I also need a similar fitting, but smaller for where boost is supplied to the top of the IP, 8 by 1 metric fitting that needs hose barbs on the other end, I have a brake bleeder fitting that fits, but is not ideal because there is no t a lot of space for a clamp on the other side of the barb.
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Interesting project. How do the Audi fives compare to the sixes found in '80's era Volvos? Those don't appear to hold up as well as the VAG fours. I'd like to stuff a nice five cyl. TD in my Vanagon someday.
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I don't really know on the first question, and I don't think that the 2.0 will fit in a vanagon, but it might just not fit in a syncro vanagon. Caddywompus tried and it did not work, I think it was a syncro he tried to bolt it up to.
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Here is some rpm to mph math
that I have worked out from first principles:
All resultsare @3000rpm.
All results are based on effective wheel height of 23" except where stated.(Syncro has 14" wheels?)
:mrgreen: 5 speed Rabbits are about 74mph IIRC :mrgreen:
Fd =final drive. 5th is 5th gear
Quantum 1.6TD
'Fd x5th' is 4.11 x 0.73 =68mph
Quantum 5cyl Gasser
................4.9 x 0.53 =79mph
Quantum Syncro
................4.11 x 0.83 =60mph :cry:
but with 25" wheels =65mph
using 5 cyl 5th 4.11 x 0.53 = 93mph
and with 25" wheels: =102mph :shock: [ or 2060rpm @70mph :lol: ]
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Quantum 5cyl Gasser
................4.9 x 0.53 =79mph
Quantum Syncro
................4.11 x 0.83 =60mph :cry:
Does anyone know if the internals can be swapped between the two trannies? Swaping all the gears seems to make the most sense so there would not be a huge canyon between 4th and 5th.
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>> How do the Audi fives compare to the sixes found in '80's era Volvos? Those don't appear to hold up as well as the VAG fours.
Well, if they're anything like the gas 5-cyl's, they're probably bulletproof. The 5-cyl NA and turbo engines in the gas cars were WAY overbuilt and took a lot of abuse.
I took apart an MC turbo engine with more than 150k on it and the bearings / cylinders looked barely used...
Sounds like a great project.
BTW, I'm not sure if the trans / diff in the QS is the same as the US Audi 4kq / 5kq units, but I do know that people have switched out the 4.11 in the 4kq for slightly longer gears in the 5kq's while doing turbo (gas) swaps. I believe those are 3.89. They seem to like it.
I can find more info if you like...
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I am collecting parts for the same swap.... I am interested in finding out more about this 5th gear swap or fianl drive swap ..or both 389 finals and .53 5th gear would be nice....a 2.5 tdi would be best but out of my budget..i hope i can get some decent power from th e2.0 5TD..and i hope i can get it to start unpluged when its real cold with out issues..my old idid aways started suckin g in th ecold unaided..the tdi starts much better in cold even ral cold 10-20below..unplugged.. think i could egt a idi to start in those conditions with out being plaugged in?
... we need more pics and test results..my syncro needs brake work and waspping ..too many projects yet ha
keep ip the good work
later
Deo
\x/ hillfolk!
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Maybe this will help for the transmission questions... It's from an Audi board, but the transmission in the quantum should be the same unit as those from the 5kq / 4kq...
http://www.motorgeek.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1533
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Maybe this will help for the transmission questions... It's from an Audi board, but the transmission in the quantum should be the same unit as those from the 5kq / 4kq...
http://www.motorgeek.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1533
I thought the type 016 box was for the quantum sync But would the gears from the type 093 drop into the type 013 boxes which are the 1.6TD/4 cylinder gasser boxes or is it confined to the type 093 boxes...
Huh? :roll:
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YESSSSS!!!!!
Engine in car. Drivers side motor mount was different between the Audi and the quantum, it swapped right over from the old gasser motor to the Diesel though and is looking good now. Nothing unusuall or hard to deal with so far.
(http://img133.echo.cx/img133/2639/dsc004856jd.jpg)
Still need to figure out, fuel filter mounting, battery relocation, removing an air box mount for turbo clearance, fuel pump removall, empty gas tank, etc... Maybe have it running next weekend???
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Great work, Jack!
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Hi there Mark, I got your email. Man your work on the engine swap looks GREAT!!! I am very proud of your work! I also am the brink of buying another QSW just to enjoy it... There’s one for sale locally for about $500.00....
Does anyone know if the internals can be swapped between the two trannies? Swaping all the gears seems to make the most sense so there would not be a huge canyon between 4th and 5th.
I did a lot of research on this subject before you bought the car.
Most of us are familiar with German Transaxle in Bend, OR -- They're supposed to be the best when it comes to this sort of stuff... Anyway, I had several LONG conversations with them about this subject, and after a bit of research on both of our parts they finally decided with a definitive NO. My memory is a bit foggy on the exact details, but it seems their sources indicate that there might be gear, but it is currently impossible to find one. Personally that sounds like utter rubbish to me, but my opinion carries much less weight around here. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Now I had a few thoughts. One is that the 2wd/Fwd VW quantum wagons had a shorter final drive, and thus had taller gears. I'll try to find my notes on this -- just a second and let me rummage through my filing cabinet.
<a few minutes later>
YES! I still have most of my old notes (along with my receipts for much of the work I did on the car before you bought it -- did you know I "freshened up” the gas motor?).
Ok I am going to scan some of my notes. There is enough data here to warrant a new post. I'll try to get all that up fairly quickly.
I'll be back in a moment.
-fang (steve)
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Tranny stuff is a low priority for now, but it would be nice down the road to get some taller gears in there for buring up interstate at 80 MPH.
I was a real PITA to get the motor to fully mate up to the bell housing, but there are a few bolts in it now so it is not going anywhere, satisfying for sure.
Oh, the throwout bearing was the source of the squeal, when I pulled the motor out all the balls fell out of the TO bearing :lol: . The clutch was just about done, I resurfaced the flywheel and got a whole new clutch kit ($180).
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Dang, my server crashed, so I will have to wait untill tomorrow to post my scans of the notes. I think you might find them interesting.
-fang
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Crap!!!!!!
I have no clutch pedal, I'm thinking that during the engine install wrestling match the clutch fork got rotated on the sleeve the covers the input shaft to the tranny so the slave cylinder is not pushing on the clutch fork :( :evil: :x :( :(
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argh that sucks ..oh well make sure all is good this time. Back in my rabbit thrashing days once the night before waterfest i pulled a tranny 3 times and never slept the whole night ha..it seems my lack off sleep let me forget the clutch pushrod plate for the rabbit clutch ha..got it all back together and pushed on the clutch peddle to start it ..nothing hahah,,that was a real mood changer - party pooping momoment..ha..had to rip it apart again..argh..a classic..i hope my quantum syncro td works well also.. as for a pita to pul or hook up engines..i seem to rember back when I stripped some foxes and 4cyl quantums i was a pita.. to pull the engiens out...hopefully i figure out a nie solution for that..removeable front valence or something..keep the pics coming..so far the worst thing i think will be going through and buying new brake parts for mine i',m sure theyr are expensive.. and dealing with any electrical gremlins..
good luck and keep us posted..
Deo
\x/ hillfolk!
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If it's any help, the fuel filter on my 5000 NA diesel was on the driver's side of the engine. Unfortunatly I don't remember exactly where. I think it had a bracket somewhere near the throttle linkage maybe.
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When I converted my Audi 4kq to a turbo motor, I had to relocate my battery as well (to clear the wastegate). I had to chop out the battery tray and then I bought a battery relo kit from Summit_racing:
http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=egnsearch.asp&N=307185&autoview=sku
At that price, the kit is pretty cheap, although in another car, I used a complete Audi 5000 battery cable and an Auto_zone marine battery box to do the same thing.
Anyway, I mounted a lug (from a stock 5kq) on the firewall to connect the starter cable /alternator, then ran the cables through the old a/c holes in the firewall. The battery cable snakes under the door sill carpets on the pasenger side, then goes back behind the rear seat.
In the 4kq, the battery sits in the pass rear section of the trunk...just between the frame rail and the fender. You'll have to make a new ground to the body at that point...
Another good idea would be to put a fuse between the battery and those long cables. I plan to do this as well...there's some reasonably priced large fuses around for this.
I can dig up some pics if you're interested...
Hope this helps.
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Thanks for the tips and link on the battery relocation.
The fuel filter did mount just down below the IP, but the filter was mounted on the motor mount that I replaced with the original quantum one, easy problem to deal with there though.
A removable front valance would be great for getting this otor in and out. I found rotating the front of the motor to the passenger side of the car then lifting was the only way to get it out. It was a little easier to get it in with the battery tray gone, but still a hassle, actuall getting the bottom of the bellhousing to clear the crossmember so the motor would be low enough to engage the bellhousing was one of the bigger issues.
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With regards to the battery relocation kit, a 2 gauge battery cable should be big enough to run glow plugs and the starter?
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It is indeed possible to "make" a removable core support to install the engine in that platform car. Tons of people do this. I found out from some members of an audi forum.
Essentially, you move the wiring, cut along the inside of the headlights (it's all non-structural) and then when you're done, you can reattach it all with some alu strips and bolts. If you paint the bolts, it even looks "factory".
FWIW, I had to have my engine in and out several times due to several issues and this made things a TON easier...
Here's some shots of my 4ktq:
(http://www.hostdub.com/albums/veeman_album03/4kqreadytoyank2.jpg) (http://www.hostdub.com/veeman_album03:4kqreadytoyank2)
(http://www.hostdub.com/albums/veeman_album03/Engine_in2.jpg) (http://www.hostdub.com/veeman_album03:Engine_in2)
...and on this one you can see the "tabs" I used to put it all back together.
(http://www.hostdub.com/albums/veeman_album03/K24.jpg) (http://www.hostdub.com/veeman_album03:K24)
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YESSSSS!!!!!
Engine in car. Drivers side motor mount was different between the Audi and the quantum, it swapped right over from the old gasser motor to the Diesel though and is looking good now. Nothing unusuall or hard to deal with so far.
(http://img133.echo.cx/img133/2639/dsc004856jd.jpg)
Still need to figure out, fuel filter mounting, battery relocation, removing an air box mount for turbo clearance, fuel pump removall, empty gas tank, etc... Maybe have it running next weekend???
looks like quite a bit of room there on the passenger side for an intercooler
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I looked at my grinder and welder :twisted: a few times while wrestling with the engine, but decided against it.
On the passenger side there will be little room left after I get the manifolds and turbo installed, but the drivers side has a lot of extra room in front of the radiator for an IC :D . First I have to get the clutch sorted :? . I'm gonna go show it whos boss right now :wink:
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FWIW, I had to have my engine in and out several times due to several issues and this made things a TON easier...
I bet, I might resort to that still...
...and on this one you can see the "tabs" I used to put it all back together.
(http://www.hostdub.com/albums/veeman_album03/K24.jpg) (http://www.hostdub.com/veeman_album03:K24)
So the tabs are strong enough to deal with the load from the front motor mount?
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So I "made" a removable valence, and the engine came out nice and easy :D , but there was nothing out of place, so I don't know why the clutch is not working :x . I'm thinking that when the engine was out and the clutch pedal went to the floor the seals in the master cylinder went farther than they had in a along time, into a potentially corroded portion of the master cylinder and ruined the seal. How do you check themaster and slave without the engine in?
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>> So the tabs are strong enough to deal with the load from the front motor mount?
Seems like it. There actually isn't any "load" on the front mount during normal conditions. That snubber, from what I understand, locates the engine in crossmember and limits the vertical movement of the engine during hard acceleration. I haven't had any issues with flex or engine movement, but I replaced my side motor mounts as well at the time.
>>the master cylinder went farther than they had in a along time, into a potentially corroded portion of the master cylinder and ruined the seal.
That happened to me on my old Squareback. I think the seals "took a set" after sitting and then when I pushed on the pedal again, the seals gave out.
>>How do you check themaster and slave without the engine in?
I'm not sure about that procedure since the slave really only actuates a short distance and is meant to apply pressure on the clutch mechanism.
I was worried about my clutch when I did my swap and I was advised to change the slave and master when I had the engine out. After doing that, I see why. I think it'd be much more difficult to change with the engine installed. You've got to somehow remove the clip and pound out the roll pin in the trans. Easier when the engine is out and the trans is drooping...
In your case, I'd imagine it'd be difficult because the injection pump might be in the way of getting at the top of the trans.
Hope that helps. I know that advising to buy parts is not fun, but for me, it was "peace of mind" and the elimination of a variable to get my project going again.
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So I "made" a removable valence, and the engine came out nice and easy :D , but there was nothing out of place, so I don't know why the clutch is not working :x . I'm thinking that when the engine was out and the clutch pedal went to the floor the seals in the master cylinder went farther than they had in a along time, into a potentially corroded portion of the master cylinder and ruined the seal. How do you check themaster and slave without the engine in?
that thing has a hydraulic clutch? Nice. All i've ever had is mechanical ones (never owned a vw with hydraulic).
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I'm gonna remove and disassemble the master and see what I find.
Thanks for the tips veeman, I found a slave and master for $150 total.
chrissev, I thought it was kinda nice to, untill it stopped working, now a cable set-up seems fantastic :wink:
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i loved the hyd clutch on my audi 5k. Shifting was soooooo smooth :) people couldn't tell it was standard until they saw me shifting hehe
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>>I thought it was kinda nice to, untill it stopped working, now a cable set-up seems fantastic
I can relate... Also inspect the hose that goes down to the slave to make sure it's in good shape.
FWIW, the early Coupe GT's and probably some of the Quantums did have cable clutches...not the quattro/syncro ones though. I don't think the assemblies swap between the two styles as the cable trans's have the actuation arm on the outside of the trans, etc...
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>>I thought it was kinda nice to, untill it stopped working, now a cable set-up seems fantastic
I can relate... Also inspect the hose that goes down to the slave to make sure it's in good shape.
FWIW, the early Coupe GT's and probably some of the Quantums did have cable clutches...not the quattro/syncro ones though. I don't think the assemblies swap between the two styles as the cable trans's have the actuation arm on the outside of the trans, etc...
Here in the UK from sometime in '85 on, the 5 cylinder Quantums had a hydraulic clutch.
Strangely the LHD version (Europe) shares the brake servo; but the RHD version has a separate reservoir next to the heater air intake :shock:
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Here I am making life easier,
(http://img16.echo.cx/img16/8092/grinder8at.jpg)
Here is apic of the inside of the slave cylinder, it seems OK, but a little rough on the side that is the bottom when it is installed, I should probably replace this, it would really suck to get it out with the motor in place. Or maybe I could reuse it? The brake fluid that was in it was TERRIBLE, little chunks and gray brown, not clear in the slightest.
(http://img209.echo.cx/img209/1279/mc32in.jpg)
EDIT- Got a new one on the way.
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Nice job on the removable front. Let me know if you need more pictures of the tabs to reatttach it. I used that alu strapping from Home_Cheapo for my setup (my favorite custom car store).
I have another buddy who actually removed his core support way back at the fenders (cut the spot welds). Kind of reminds me of how an A2 core support comes off, but the way you (I) did it is just as convenient.
FWIW, back when I did my swap, I ran the engine without the front on the car in the garage for quite a while. I was chasing an oil pressure problem that eventually warranted switching out the block, but it really helped having the front off the car to test everything. Since the radiator is on the driver side, no worries about that...just don't get your sleeve caught in the pulleys!
Also...a number of guys run either the oil cooler or the intercooler in front of the radiator. I've got a number of pics of these setups if you'd like. One guy I met uses a 944 intercooler turned on end and mounted on the left side in front of the radiator. Seems to work pretty well.
As I've got my oil cooler in front of the radiator, I'm going to use a UrQ (Audi Quattro) intercooler that I have in the stock UrQ position (lower passenger side front below bumper /fender) if I ever get around to it. I've got more pics if you want to see them...
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Hmmm, my oil cooler attaches right next towhere the oil filter does (down below the turbo), I don't think the hoses are long enough to get to the drivers side and that huge space in front of the radiator.
I will intercool it sometime this summer, but right now I just want it to run. These (http://search.ebay.com/stock-eclipse-intercooler_W0QQcatrefZC6QQcoactionZcompareQQcoentrypageZsearchQQcopagenumZ1QQfromZR10QQfsopZ1QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQsbrftogZ1QQsofocusZbs) intercoolers usually go for about $30, I was thinking about using one of them.
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I got a fair bit done today, Engine reinstalled with new clutch slave cylinder (and a working clutch now) Oil cooler location figured out, and I got the timing set, but I have a question there. When I set the motor to TDC and locked the pump the dial indicator only read .5 mm, where it is supposed to read .93 + or - .02. I set it to just under .95 mm. While it only takes a tiny turn of the pump to go from .5 to .9 I was wanting to know that this is "normal".
I also noticed that after setting the timing then turning the engine over a few times the timing would be slightly retarded, I have it set so that after a few revolutions the gauge reads .94mm (actually .037 inches). I assume that this is the prefered way to set the timing?
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I got a fair bit done today, Engine reinstalled with new clutch slave cylinder (and a working clutch now) Oil cooler location figured out, and I got the timing set, but I have a question there. When I set the motor to TDC and locked the pump the dial indicator only read .5 mm, where it is supposed to read .93 + or - .02. I set it to just under .95 mm. While it only takes a tiny turn of the pump to go from .5 to .9 I was wanting to know that this is "normal".
I also noticed that after setting the timing then turning the engine over a few times the timing would be slightly retarded, I have it set so that after a few revolutions the gauge reads .94mm (actually .037 inches). I assume that this is the prefered way to set the timing?
does the pump sprocket move when you have it locked? I found with my 1.6TD that I had to hold the pump at TDC with my left hand, and put the cam pulley on with my right, otherwise the pump sprocket would move slightly back from TDC (locking pin didn't lock very well) and then it would be really out of time.
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Nice work with the removable valance, guys! I am reading all of this with mucho interest, and plan to do it to my q-ship when the engine comes out this summer. No sense rasslin' with it if I don't have to! :lol:
BTW, I have a '76 Ford E-250 van that I've had the engine out of several times, and that truck came from the factory with a removable front. To remove the engine one simply starts removing stuff from the front of the rig until one is staring at the engine. Piece of cake! :P
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does the pump sprocket move when you have it locked? I found with my 1.6TD that I had to hold the pump at TDC with my left hand, and put the cam pulley on with my right, otherwise the pump sprocket would move slightly back from TDC (locking pin didn't lock very well) and then it would be really out of time.
The locking pin fits well, a little slop, but not much. I guess the descrepency is just in the belt?
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Nice work with the removable valance, guys! I am reading all of this with mucho interest, and plan to do it to my q-ship when the engine comes out this summer. No sense rasslin' with it if I don't have to! :lol:
Do you have one of the 2.0 Audi TDs already?
I have never actually seen an Audi 5000 TD, even in a junk yard, I wonder how many of these were ever imported? Only 82' and 83'.
Can't wait to get this thing fired up.
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No...but the 1.6 needs a new clutch, the turbo is chewed up and puts out only about 10 psi of boost, and the engine smokes a bit. So I'm going to rebuild it.
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does the pump sprocket move when you have it locked? I found with my 1.6TD that I had to hold the pump at TDC with my left hand, and put the cam pulley on with my right, otherwise the pump sprocket would move slightly back from TDC (locking pin didn't lock very well) and then it would be really out of time.
The locking pin fits well, a little slop, but not much. I guess the descrepency is just in the belt?
I guess. I found the locking pin on my 1.6TD would allow the injection pump gear to move back enough that the belt was actually one tooth off where it was supposed to be on the pump sprocket, and this messed up everything else (couldn't get the camshaft pulley to line up with the crankshaft pulley with the belt on). When I held the pump gear in place with my hand, all was cured and camshaft pulley slipped in easily and lined up perfect. Weird design for a locking pin. Almost completely useless.
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I just replaced the pump on my 1.5 and had to use a 3/8 socket extension as a locking pin; it was a long one so it allowed me to leverage the sprocket into the right position -
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Got a few more things checked off the list today, oil cooler installed (still need ot cut out some of the body for proper air flow)
(http://img158.echo.cx/img158/7751/dsc005143if.jpg)
Here is a pic of one of the mounting brackets
(http://img205.echo.cx/img205/120/dsc005151na.jpg)
and the other end
(http://img205.echo.cx/img205/1496/dsc005177xo.jpg)
Fuel filter mount
(http://img205.echo.cx/img205/3766/dsc005233wf.jpg)
And frankenstein Down pipe work,
(http://img134.echo.cx/img134/7468/dsc005246yl.jpg)
So the battery that came with the car has 780 cranking amps at 32*F, shold be enough juice right? And I need to get battery location figured out...
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Few more things checked off the list, Gas tank emptied of gas and a sucessfull trip to the junk yard, I was missing the checkvalve that screws into the vaccum pump, and the fitting on the IP that is supplied with boost from the intake manifold, thoes bits have been difficult to find.
One problem that has shown up is that the fuel tank and filler neck are one piece, I need a different filler neck so the diesel nozzle will fit, the chances of finding a Quantum diesel tank anre VERY slim, all the wreckers I called today laughed. I suppose I will have to use a die grinder to make the hole in the filler neck larger to accept the diesel nozzle. I'll stick the sho vac hose up to the opening from inside the tank while I grind I am thinking.
I also need a "clunk" or weight for the end of the fuel line in the tank. Is there a filter incorperated into the "clunk"? I could just use one from any VW diesel right?
I also got this of the Volvo 740 TD at the junk yard :D
(http://img260.echo.cx/img260/7110/turbodiesel9qa.jpg)
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I just put a diesel engine in an '81 Rabbit gasser and couldn't use the diesel fill nozzle.
I pulled the pipe off the car and took a chisel to the inside. Found a rivet on the side, put the chisel to it and the whole piece turned sideways and came out in one piece.
I'm not sure how this would work with your car but I'm going to try it with my '91 Golf next.
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(http://img260.echo.cx/img260/7110/turbodiesel9qa.jpg)
:mrgreen: AHHH BISTO :mrgreen:
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I pulled the pipe off the car and took a chisel to the inside. Found a rivet on the side, put the chisel to it and the whole piece turned sideways and came out in one piece.
Mine is not set-up like that unfortunatley, but I have a solution in mind.
So I was just working on the car thinking that I was getting close to making some Diesel exahaust, I was refilling the radiator and... the water pump is bad :( Coolant came pouring out the weep hole :cry: :cry: :cry: . It is cheap enough that I should have installed a new one when I did the T-belt.. Oh well. Now I have to re-time everything, Hopefully I will get it fired up tomorrow, assuming i can find a water pump around town.
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I am close to getting this going again, I want to do a budget rebuild.
Head completley rebuilt at aluminum head rebuilders here in Portland, $300
Bad cylinder overbored and sleeved, all cylinders honed, $350
New HG and bolts ~$100
rings, $80
So somewhere around 850-900 bucks all said and done is what I am hoping for.
I am hoping that the bearings are good to reuse and that the pistons are close to spec, a set of pistons would make this a lot more expensive. I will be dissasembling the block next weekend and was wanting to know the best way to check bearing condition, Plastigauge them? along with visuall indicators of wear? What about checking the piston/bore spec? just use a high quality caliper? How do I check for cylinder taper?
Thanks, Jack
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I can't speak to piston measurement & cylinder taper, but as to bearings...
If I were you, and I had this engine all disassembled anyway, and I knew that it had been mistreated by its previous owner (just as you know now), then I'd be replacing bearings as a matter of course, whatever the Plastigauge readings said. (Unless they show "out of round", which is another P.I.T.A. altogether).
A number of us here have low oil pressure issues. Some have traced that to the I-shaft bearings, so those should *definitely* be replaced. But, "in for a penny, in for a pound", the main & connecting rod bearings might as well be renewed, too, at the same time.
I know it's a few bucks more, but if you get it all together installed, and you have no more than 60 psi oil pressure on stone cold startup, and near 0 at warm idle, then you're going to wish you had spent the few extra $ when it would have been relatively easy to do.
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Hey there...
IMO, the 5-cyl cranks are really stout and you probably don't have any worries there, but I think it'd be a good step to plastigage the bearings, see if they're in spec and then replace if necessary.
Is the engine's bottom end out of the car? I've checked crank saddle and big end bearings with the engine in the car, but it's not super fun.
Both times I've gone over 5-cyl bottom ends (both gas/turbo), I went to the trouble of removing the engine, taking the crank to a machine shop and both times they were absolutely fine. The guys there remarked that they were in good shape for having 150k and only polished them up a bit.
As for the intermediate shaft bearings... I'm sure you know that your 5-cyl doesn't have those.
Good to hear your project is going again! Can't wait to see how it drives.
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Engine is out of the car on an engine stand so checking tolerances will be easy. I'm getting some prices for parts from Halsey automotive, somehow I can't find rod bearings avalible, hopefully they have them... if I need them.
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The block has most everything removed, but I am not sure how to remove the dipstick tube, anyone know?
The crank and rod bearings are in very good shape, all are well within the tolerances for new parts :)
Crank bearings,
1) .045mm
2) .050mm
3) .040mm
4) .045mm
5) .045mm
6) .045mm
Rod bearings
1) .040mm
2) .032mm
3) .038mm
4) .038mm
5) .040mm
I can't find my feeler gauges right now though so I cannot test the side clearance on the crank bearings or the thrust bearing, but they seem quite good, the thrust bearing has no wear of note as the motor was originally mated to an auto.
The only thing of note inside the engine was that the #5 piston oil squirter was broken off just like the #4 was on Malones engine.
2 of the crank bearings had marks like this, but I could not feel any imperfection where these marks are,
(http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/9902/dsc008974rb.jpg)
The rod bearing all looked like this,
(http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/5946/dsc009009jy.jpg)
At this point I am not going to replace any of the bearings, I don't see any point.
I am however going to get some fancy headbolts so I won't have to worry about head gasket issues in the future.
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man i would replace the bearings if i was you they are cheap..and its apart and on the satnd ..whats $60bucks during a rebuild..the mark on that first bearing could be from a bit of dirt or grim under the bearing shell that caused it to wear different in that spot when it was torqued down... any new news about your project?..im iching to do mine sometime soon..mummn i smell nickle and dime me to death thought ha..how to hear more from you soon
thanks
Deo
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The project is moving along slowly, need to get the rebuild sorted and done, I'm dropping th block at the rebuilders tommorow so they can measure for cylinder taper and piston tolerances. Having taken the engine in and out a few times now it will only take a few hours to get the rebuilt installed, once it is rebuilt of course. The Diesel gas conversion of the car is complete, all I need is a running 2.0 L TD :? It will probably be the end of summer at this point.
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>>The block has most everything removed, but I am not sure how to remove the dipstick tube, anyone know?
If it's like the gas 5-cyl, it should be a pretty tight fit into the block...almost press fit. I've never taken one off personally, but I've heard people say you can use a slide hammer with a special attachment (bolt with diameter large enough to go into the ID of the tube) to pull it off.
Before you do any of that though, I'd be sure that you can find a replacement if necessary. I'd hate to see the thing damaged beyond repair upon removal...
Glad to see the project is moving along...
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yup the dip stick is a press in fit ..i is swaged and has ribbs in the portion that fit in the block.. I have been careful and gotten em out a few ifferent ways..if you lock avise grips on teh lower part and use a hammer on the visegrips has worked, also a small chissel to pry it out ..or a bot that fits from the inside to hammer the dipstick out worked..when i re install i noramml put soem silicon or teflon paste on it and have to usea blunt chisel tyo drive int back in...you may find it easy to just leave it in ..hope this helps
thanks
Deo
\x/ hillfolk!
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So the machine shop called and my head is not rebuildable, it is already at minimum thickness :( I have lead on a possible complete motor now, which I would really prefer to get this project finished for less money. I'll know what is up with this potentiall motor on tuesday...
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argh that stinks..maybe you can get a reman head...If you have to do it completely over ..maybe look into the 2.5L tdi engine..partsplace has a few supposedly for $3k but complete with ecu and wiring etc..may be able to get one cheaper if just long block with out pump etc......any way keep us updated thanks
Deo
\x/ hillfolk!
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I had the same thing. A head that was below suggested min thickness. After talking at length with the guy at Aluminum Head Rebuilders I came to the conclusion that this is just an industry standard suggestion. I had them cut and rebuild the head anyway and it is the best running TD I have. He couldn't tell me why it needed to be a certain thickness other than that his published numbers said so. He tried to tell me that it had something to do with the angle of the prechamber exit and may cause a little more black smoke is all. I find it hard to believe that .010" is going to make any difference here when the head gaskets vary more than that.
Does anyone know for sure what happens when a head is shaved too far?
Larry
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Does anyone know for sure what happens when a head is shaved too far?
Well, if it is cut too far, then the valves can impact the tops of the pistons. If it is cut slightly less, the head is more susceptible to warping from heat, and you can suffer the "blown head gasket" syndrome.
I suspect that VW have a bit of a cushion built into their minimum numbers, though, so you may be able to get by with one more .010" cut.
You decision...your head. Good luck! :D
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I had the same thing. A head that was below suggested min thickness. After talking at length with the guy at Aluminum Head Rebuilders I came to the conclusion that this is just an industry standard suggestion. I had them cut and rebuild the head anyway and it is the best running TD I have. He couldn't tell me why it needed to be a certain thickness other than that his published numbers said so. He tried to tell me that it had something to do with the angle of the prechamber exit and may cause a little more black smoke is all. I find it hard to believe that .010" is going to make any difference here when the head gaskets vary more than that.
Does anyone know for sure what happens when a head is shaved too far?
Larry
Surely main effect is to bring valve heads a little too close to piston. Maybe this can be offset by lapping in valves to seats more and then maybe grinding off a few thou from valve stems. I may be talkin' 'ollucks but then I rarely throw anything away; especially if consensus says otherwise :twisted:
Anyway it sounds like you've nothing to loose but everything to gain!
I've shelved looking for a Quattro setup and have to be content with a 'new' purchase of my 3rd Quantum Wagon 1.6TD '85 only 105,000miles for the princely sum of $300 equiv. from a decendant of Mr Perrins of Worcester Sauce fame... ah well I just wish I could find one with a/c. It would be so useful for our usual 2 or 3 weeks sunshine we normally get here in the UK
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Well this one is at min thickness and it is warped .017" :shock: Problems arise when you get a tight valve and there are no thiner shims to install, also the edges of the valves get rather thin according to the guy at AHR which could cause problems down the road.
I am hoping for a running used motor from a guy in southern oregon, fingers crossed...
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Well this one is at min thickness and it is warped .017" :shock: Problems arise when you get a tight valve and there are no thiner shims to install, also the edges of the valves get rather thin according to the guy at AHR which could cause problems down the road.
I am hoping for a running used motor from a guy in southern oregon, fingers crossed...
Sounds good but make this existing boat anchor a handbuilt fine tolerance spare :wink:
Maybe use a valve seat grinder first or maybe lap with a couple of spare 'sacrificial' valves first.
With a shimmed head its just a matter of cam on and cam followers in with no springs then push each seated valve up to cam and measure gaps. Initially no shims will fit because you are coming from a position where all shims too fat/stems too long so its an iterative process. Grind off surplus from stems. 'Get methodical' :D
For me it would be purely because I like the challenge and the idea that I'm not going with the 'flow' and the 'I rebuilt/fixed that'.
No dealership was ever saved by my 'sponsorship' :twisted:
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I am going to get a used engine at this point. I have a couple of leads, the best is from an 83', 63,000 miles, full gaurantee, it has been "hot tested" and runs fine, it has been compression tested as well, I should be getting thoes numbers shortly. They want $600 which is far less that the cost of a rebuild even if my head was rebuildable...
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I have placed a deposit on a 71,000 mile motor from texas, hot run tested, and leak down compression tested with a 90 day waranty. But I will not be able to install it till september.
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I have placed a deposit on a 71,000 mile motor from texas, hot run tested, and leak down compression tested with a 90 day waranty. But I will not be able to install it till september.
Come-on Jack this is getting more suspenseful than waitin' to see who shot JR :shock:
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I have placed a deposit on a 71,000 mile motor from texas, hot run tested, and leak down compression tested with a 90 day waranty. But I will not be able to install it till september.
hmmm, 71,000 is nice if it is verifiable. Motor probably would have at least double that left in it, maybe more. Good luck with this one. Hope it doesn't blow up on you like your first deal did.
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I have placed a deposit on a 71,000 mile motor from texas, hot run tested, and leak down compression tested with a 90 day waranty. But I will not be able to install it till september.
Come-on Jack this is getting more suspenseful than waitin' to see who shot JR :shock:
You and me both, this project has had everything possible go wrong, all engine related of course... The swap should be quick and painless at this point once I get the time to deal with it...
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Hope it doesn't blow up on you like your first deal did.
Warranty with reimbursment of shipping makes me confident with this one.
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Hope it doesn't blow up on you like your first deal did.
Warranty with reimbursment of shipping makes me confident with this one.
And then?.... Or should I say now ;o)
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Yeah... Updates? I really want to hear how this project turns out... All-wheel-drive, five-cylinders and diesel? Those are three great ingredients!
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It should be here this week :)
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Bump!
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The set-backs just keep on coming.
I paid for the low mile used engine on Oct 2, it was supposed to ship the next day and be here is 4-5 days. I called them a week and a half later, "It'll ship out today" OK... I call back another week and a half later, "It did not ship because it did not pass a test we just got 2 more and you will get the better of the 2"
"You need to call me with the details of the engine before you ship"
That was a week ago; they are now going to refund my money, which is what I was going to ask for actually.
This project has not gone smoothly and I am back to square 1 WRT to acquiring a running engine. I am also moving in a month and a half, end result? My loss is your ______!!!!! Anybody interested in what I have can come get it. I'll start a thread in the for sale section.
Where is the project now? The gas-diesel conversion of the car is all finished, it just needs a running engine. The swap was %95 finished when I found the engine was bad.
At this point all that needs done is to find a suitable 2.0 TD and bolt it in, the drivers side motor mount has to be switched onto the TD and the front valence needs to be welded or bolted back in.
:?
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Oh dear...
That's 18 months of effort down the the pan :cry:
Ah well look at all that knowledge acquired!
You must be as sick as a pig. Heck I'm feeling sick too...
(Not so much because of your loss but more because I looked under the back of my temporary Quantum to put a tow hitch on)
My usual one is off road being 'immaculatized' and a lump of car fell in my eye. When I pulled the piece of chassis off my face I peered up to where the bodywork meets the floor behind the spare wheel well and found that it doesn't!
:shock: This is the pretty view and I'll take an ugly view later!
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/1957/goldpassat3am.jpg
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Wow... I'm sorry to hear that. Major bummer. I've been in that situation before and it's always depressing. I was looking forward to seeing that one up and running.
Just recently, I was hoping someone would chime in and refute the bad experiences regarding 5-cyl TD's reported in this thread:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2285
I hope someone will pick up this project and run with it. Someone out there's got to have a nice running 5-cyl to slap in that thing... With winter coming up the QSWTD should be just the ticket. If you were closer, jack... I'd be very interested...
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Oh dear...
That's 18 months of effort down the the pan :cry:
Ah well look at all that knowledge acquired!
You must be as sick as a pig. Heck I'm feeling sick too...
I learned a fair bit for sure, and I have been slowly accepting the idea that this was a potentiall outcome of it all so I'm not feeling too down in the dumps about it.
At this point I want to start saving my pennies for a 4wd Toyta pickup for a TDI swap, I want to lower it and make it as car like as possible, toyota reliablility with Diesel power/economy.
Just recently, I was hoping someone would chime in and refute the bad experiences regarding 5-cyl TD's reported in this thread:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2285
I read that too, and was supprised/dissapointed by his expiriences.
I hope someone will pick up this project and run with it. Someone out there's got to have a nice running 5-cyl to slap in that thing... With winter coming up the QSWTD should be just the ticket. If you were closer, jack... I'd be very interested...
I love to see someone finish it off, transporting it at this point is of course a hassle without an engine...
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Just recently, I was hoping someone would chime in and refute the bad experiences regarding 5-cyl TD's reported in this thread:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2285
I read that too, and was supprised/dissapointed by his expiriences.
Jack, I just read that entire thread again, and I don't see any "bad experiences". All I see is that the timing belt is maxed out and absolutely must be changed on time - which we all know. And didn't I also read somewhere that the 5- & 6-cyl engines have some issues with the main bearings needing help with oiling at high RPMs?
To me those aren't bad experiences - they are just typical hot rodding considerations. I hope you aren't letting your disappointment over a couple of bad junk yard motor heads get you this far down. In your mood, I suggest you not sell the car. Set it aside for a while and work on something else that's more rewarding in the short term. If you 'give this car away' you will regret it!
I for one will keep my eye out for a good running 5-cyl down here in the Bay Area for you. I get up to your neck of the woods often enough that if you end up buying one I can drag it up there for you in a reasonable amount of time.
Cheer up mate! :lol:
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Just recently, I was hoping someone would chime in and refute the bad experiences regarding 5-cyl TD's reported in this thread:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2285
I read that too, and was supprised/dissapointed by his expiriences.
Jack, I just read that entire thread again, and I don't see any "bad experiences".
The 2.0 5000 TD motor was good for max of 140 to 150k miles before oil consumption or cracked compression rings caused problems. I drove mine into the ground, bored the motor and did 1 over pistons, and it was burning a quart of oil every 800 miles within 260k miles.
I have no problems with changing a T-belt every 40K or whenever it's needed, good for a max of 150K is less than I expected though, taken with a grain of salt for sure, but he des have some expirience with the 5 banger.
I looked all over for one of these 2.0 TDs, I called close to every wrecker in the state of Oregon and most of them in Washington, plus did many on-line nationwide seaches, no dice. That combined with the fact that I am moving soon, and well, it has to go.
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Here's a 2.0 Audi diesel five for $300 in Olympia, WA. Rebuilt head, needs a set of rings but that takes no more than an afternoon if you have the tools. Doesn't say if it is a turbo or not but that is a secondary consideration. Has a spare injector pump too. Damn, if I wasn't in college all the way across the country I'd sell my Rabbit and finish up this swap instead. But you might consider snatching this engine and doing it yourself...
http://seattle.craigslist.org/pts/104730005.html