VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => mTDI Mechanical TDI Conversions => Topic started by: scottyroccodiesel on January 24, 2008, 07:07:29 am
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well I have been reading up on this like crazy... from the FAQ thread to everything i can find on here , tdiclub, and vortex(not much of anything there especially brain power).
I have a tdi engine and pump, I am planning on getting a 1.6 td pump for the mechanical pump.
I am a college student and my funds are, well lets say limited.... My engine came from my moms wrecked tdi so that cost free :) , my first car was a 16v scirocco and I just bought a damn clean one for $200 !!!!! and it has a sunroof!!!!
soo I am pretty electronically declined and have nightmares about swapping over all the tdi electronics. my dad recommended do a mechanical injection pump.
for my dads prject he sent his td pump into giles but there is noooo wayyy I could spend 900 just to have the pump reworked. so I decided I wanted to do a franken pump with the tdi and a td pump. I can get a td pump for 150 and I already have the tdi pump so I thought his would be the cheapest easiest way to go.
so to my main question making the franken pump??..... this is a quote from the FAQ "swapping in the pump head, plunger and camplate from a TDI pump" ok so I want to know is this as easy as it sounds ???? would I have to retime the pump???
I would love for someone to give me a step by step on this and maybe some pics if anyone has them?
Is there any mods I can or should do to the pump when I am done?
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heres my rocco http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3601326
I know lots of people have looked at this but does no one know the answer? or is everyone just hiding it?
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that is what I originally tried and it ran for a while, but you really need the special tools to check the spacing. Mine after a short while (a day or two of tuning it) wouldnt start and when it did it wouldnt come down below like 1500 rpm.
it basically dropped the shim out and did what I would call a valve float and destroyed the inside of the pump.
I couldnt find anyone to work on a custom pump except for Giles and jacks source over on vwdieselparts. so I had to send it to giles, I know that he costs a lot but a normal Bosch place wont touch it and for performance and value Giles is well spent.
I love mine, I am currently running about 14 lbs of boost, cruise with 6-8 psi and get 41-44 mpg right now in the winter.
good luck
jkeiffer
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so I really cant do this by myself??
this is a set back...
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so I really cant do this by myself??
this is a set back...
if you don't have any experience working with precision components, then yes, i would say that you won't be able to make it work. (it might run, but it won't run good)
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is there any one otyher than giles that can this kind of work?
I know he is the god of this stuff but theres got to be other people who can do it. Im not looking to squeeze every ounce of power out of it or anything but maybe a few mods for more fueling...
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There is not that much to it. Getting the new pump together with out dropping the four springs, button between the pump and drive. You will have to retime after. The cam plate can go in 180 degrees out. I think that matters. The key way on the pump indexed with the drive tit on the cam plate. If you tear it apart and can''t get it back together, some one posts hear about reseal'in them for cash. Send him the pieces. Once you know the ip all the piece fit one way. Make sure the wheel on the lever assembly end up back in the hole in the fuel collar on the pump. It is tricky but not impossible. I run lots of veggie and what not in a 1 tank system, my poor ip takes it hard. Veggie guys clean the restricted ip return banjo, they always plug.
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In my book, to spend 900$ for a M-pump it are what that is worth, but for 500-600$ you will find an ECU and a chip tuning.
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Bugger, there used to be a guy named Peter over in the Czecgh Republic that was selling TDI's with manual pumps. I cant find his information any longer..
RATS!
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Bugger, there used to be a guy named Peter over in the Czecgh Republic that was selling TDI's with manual pumps. I cant find his information any longer..
RATS!
I think Deepmud got one of his setups, and it has never really run the way it should. He said when he first got it, his old AAZ(now mine) had better power.
Get Tintin or Giles to make you a pump. You have to pay for quality.
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Bugger, there used to be a guy named Peter over in the Czecgh Republic that was selling TDI's with manual pumps. I cant find his information any longer..
RATS!
I think Deepmud got one of his setups, and it has never really run the way it should. He said when he first got it, his old AAZ(now mine) had better power.
Get Tintin or Giles to make you a pump. You have to pay for quality.
In agreement with that...
joe
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Bugger, there used to be a guy named Peter over in the Czecgh Republic that was selling TDI's with manual pumps. I cant find his information any longer..
RATS!
the guy is still making the TDI pumps. Peter seems to be quite busy lately... i bought a pump off a guy who got his from Peter (through that guy over in Czech)
I got Giles to test it for me and tell me if it would be in my best interest to get him to re-do it. he's an honest guy and told me that it was putting out some crazy amount of fuel... black smoke and probably a burnt engine is what i would be looking at with the pump. it didn't come with an LDA so even if there was no boost, the pump would still be dishing out the fuel. highly inefficient! i can't wait till my pump is done :) Giles really takes pride in the pumps he builds. that's saying a lot!
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Scotty:
Nice ride. Will be even nicer with the rattlebox under the bonnet.
My suggestion to you is that you go with Giles, but not for the reason you might think. I would encourage ANYONE to do as much as they can, because that is how we learn. However, it seems like the real problem is that you can't afford to be wrong - so the best solution is to figure out how to raise enough cash to have it done once, and done right.
There will be plenty of time after you graduate and have some kind of regular income to take risks with your time and money - and be better off for it, but it really doesn't sound like that time is now.
Pat
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hahaha thank you very much and you are right I got a long life ahead of me but I am the only one in the family with a gasser and gas is killing me. I want to get this down by the end of summer. Like i said my main hurdles are the IP and all the motor mounts i have to make... my dad amazing at custom fabrication though and I know he will help me get through this.
I think I have found a fiat croma tdid pump for 150 euros, I know shipping will be exspensive but the total wont be over 500 i dont think. I have read that it is bolt on and the minor mods can really get it going. scope has one on his m-tdi.
so if i do that I can sell my tdi pump to some one for a few hundred right?
I will probaly try to get some pics so i can do a true build thread.
I know giles does a great job just all too pricey for me, my dad just got his back from giles for his 356td project and I know that its goin to just rip. he has been doing everything on the car very grassroots so he just thought he should splurge somewhere.
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Prothe,
I know I will probably be the first one to address this here, and maybe its for the Vendors forum, buyer/seller feedback, etc. However, your price for a "mTDI" pump seems a bit "iffy" to me as do the numbers of pumps that you claim to have built.
Now, I will give you the fact that a modified AAZ pump or a 1.6 TD pump will "run" a TDI and may run it fine...but will it put up stock numbers, hp, fueling without further modifications....no.
Those of us that do have "properly setup" mTDI's are well aware of this fact. That fact is.... that you can not just add a TDI hydraulic head and camplate to a 1.6 or 1.9 IDI pump and have it be a fully operational and well thought out mTDI pump. Since you are a vendor, making money, etc. I'm not going to go into further details about what these modifications entail and maybe it is something you already consider (but do not address). I think in the interests of any potential buyers though, that they would want to see some power numbers, customer feedback, etc. regarding your product.
I've been there, done this. My 4bt pump is currently in its "third" revision and I know there are those out there (Giles, Tin-Tin aside) selling what they claim to be mTDI pumps with these "simple" parts swaps and modifications that will run the TDI motor, but not to its full potential. It simply ends up being a IDI pump, maxed for fueling and supplemented with a 10mm (or 12mm head) to help that fact out.
I know I had to be the first...but I'd hate to see someone get burned.
Joe
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+1, I am completely in agreement with Joe.
Just to talk, of how much the advance timing piston moves in your M-pump to have the good timing at wot at 4000RPM.
How much cm3/1000s your pump can it produce at wot at 4000rpm :lol:
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I know a guy that bought a tdi-m pump from the states and it looked proper as it had the correct pump housing,bigger driveshaft,LDA and it even had an 11mm head with a TDI camplate.I installed the pump and it made as much power as a 1.6 non turbo.We removed the LDA pin completely and turned up the fuel as high as possible before it starts to rev on its own.Now it had as much power as a 1.6TD :lol: .
I took it into work and (Mike) our pump tech and I went through it and after we modified some parts to get more fueling and more advance for the TDI engine we then tried it again and it still only made a little more power like a 1.9td.
The pump came off again and this time we completely changed all of the controls to use cummins parts and top housing.Now we have lots of fuel delivery and managed to find a good gov spring to keep fuel fueling on
till 4000 rpm.This governor is not that great for the vw but it works and was are only option to get the fueling where we wanted it without spending more time and money for parts.
I just thought I'd share my experience with you guys just to show you how some people that build TDI-m pumps don't know what they are doing they might be able to assemble a TDI-m pump but have no knowlege on how to make it perform.
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You said very well what occurs with the M-pump with only a TDI head + came plate, same power as 1.6D :lol: :lol: and when modified it with proper parts, that takes much knowledge to give a good result.
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I don't believe anyone accused you of anything...more questions your claims.
There is alot more that goes into "pump design and performance" than just swapping a camplate/plunger/hydraulic head when your using the IDI pumps as a base...
Bosch did do a great job at keeping their pumps inner workings a fairly good secret and to this day, in MOST...not all BOSCH shops, most will not tweak a pump beyond its factory settings as specified by bosch.
However, there are many considerations to address when looking at the IDI engine vs. the DI engines (here talking specifically about the TDI). Fuel pressure, timing advance and camplate profile are only a few.
What are your considerations in building your mTDI pumps when it comes to timing advance? Its an important consideration...
What about full load fueling vs. relative and max RPM's? Are you aware of the operation and travel of the gov./throttle mechnism on a true mechanical direct injection pump vs. a indirect injection pump?
True bench testing will show you this...in the hard numbers. Actual testing on a car (as many of us can't afford the test equipment) provides a realistic sense of differences when you know "how" a mechanically controlled, direct injection diesel engine should sound like, smoke like and operate like as well.
I'm not going to beat the dead horse here...but sure, you are able to "suceed" in "running" an mTDI with a simply modified IDI injection pump (by swapping the hydraulic head, plunger, camplate for a TDI unit), but is it going to perform at its best potential? No, not without further modification to areas that those of us that spend their lives rebuilding/modifying pumps for a living (i.e. Giles) or those of us that have been down the mTDI road before, know what these engines are looking for specifically internally (not just fuel considerations) have discovered. The pump you build will run the engine...but not optimally...plain and simple. I'd put mine, a Tin-Tin or a Giles pump up against that anyday. I'd be interested in seeing the smoking habits, sound of the motor under load and how it would handle "further" fueling...if it isn't already maxed out.
However, if your customers are happy....then they don't know the less and with the number of mTDI's popping up quite frequently now, I wouldn't be suprised. Simply put, in the configuration that you have thus far mentioned....maybe stock power is achieveable. Thats a big maybe. Is the pump properly balanced and tuned for the motor though? I would doubt it, but would enjoy being proven wrong. Again, to some though this really may not matter. To many on the boards here though, I think they'd take this into carefull consideration. If your happy with a ton of smoke, not enough advance, etc. by all means. Run the route. However, optimal performance and economy will never be obtained.
my .02....again.
Prothe, on seperate occasions I've actual bought a product from you and inquired about other bits (on ebay). Namely, the source country for your hydraulic heads, and "performance" nozzles, etc. On a few different occasions, and I never received a response. I'm not going to say that may it was just a missed inquiry, etc. given the volume of inquires that you may have...but its just that. It didn't make me settled in your product though and I could draw my own conclusions, but chose the route of more expense...especially given the track record of some aftermarket junk that has been sold elsewhere. In the end, I really am a firm believer that you get what you pay for. I learned that with the timing kit I got....though, the cam lock plate still comes in handy!
This isn't a flame and please do not take it that way...as with many diesel goods on the market one can argue how they are installed, condition, expertise, etc. among a variety of other things and you certainly aren't the only one that sells these goods. Many have had "good" experiences if you want to call them that...no ill effects, everything works, ok, etc. but again....you get what you paid for.
Joe
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i am really sorry for instigating this...
Thank you very much for the heads up rabbitgtd and tintin. I also sent prothe a message and got no reply.
I know my best bet is to just save up and get a giles or tintin pump, in he long run its the best route by far. I only have a tdi pump though so do I have to buy a td pump to send in? and who has had exspierence with both in regards to m-tdi applications? any suggestions?
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Copy past reply.... for the pump explanation. héhé!!
I sells some driveable M-pump in the past and the last year and built some other for my friends here, and a lot and a lot ...... of experimentation for my M-tdi car, and today that does not interest me any more to sell this type of pump, it's much more complicated to build a real M-pump than 300$, so I loses my time and I do not have the necessary equipment, this is why I wonder how you make to sell your pump not expensive.
250$ for me It's only for a bosch seal rebuilt without modification, in a shop it's around 500-600$
To built only one M-pump It's easy, but for a lot a these pump that take a lot of DI specific pumps parts and it's very expensive, and the asian pumps seller are not interested to provide these specific parts.
Buy a TDI car and installs one of your M-pump, (resell the car after the test) you will very quickly understand what one wants to explain you, Andy2 have explain very well what occurs.
You are it welcome in this forum but sell there good product, if not you will burn your name quickly, that change nothing for me, It's for you.
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i am really sorry for instigating this...
Thank you very much for the heads up rabbitgtd and tintin. I also sent prothe a message and got no reply.
I know my best bet is to just save up and get a giles or tintin pump, in he long run its the best route by far. I only have a tdi pump though so do I have to buy a td pump to send in? and who has had exspierence with both in regards to m-tdi applications? any suggestions?
I don't think you instigated anything really...
Honestly, this is good information to have out there.
Prothe,
I can respect what you are saying... however, take in consideration "the cheap route" and your lack of R&D with the pumps that you are building down the road...especially as far as customer satisfaction goes. I can gurantee you that reliability and functionality will suffer down the road when you don't take into consideration some of the key elements (between both pumps) that make these cars run good and trouble free.
I think you'll see what I'm saying down the road in not so many times.
On a 1.6 TDI kit... interesting, your going to "market" this kit? So people can convert their 1.6 IDI cars to TDI? I'd be interested in the research and depth that went into this considering what would need to be changed and accounted for between these engines. Or is it a bunch of parts to make this happen? i.e. pistons, i'm assuming a 1z/AHU head *as its the only one that would even fit on the 1.6 block*, injectors, hold downs, lines, your "mTDI pump" and ?
Is this something that you have already setup yourself? Have one running? Again, alot of R&D will go into something like that to make it work efficiently and properly...I can think of a number of issues in your way right off the bat.
As Martin said...and well put, your more than welcome here as is any good diesel head. However, I do have issues with people that put together things that don't have time invested into it and are out to make a quick buck.
You originally mentioned "I founded my business on the fundamental belief that VW diesel owners want to save money. They don't want to spend $500 on a rebuilt injector pump for a car that is worth $1000. The only reason they drive these cars is to save money. This is where I come in."
What your selling isn't going to save them money in the end. Also, these cars, especially diesels are now worth quite a bit more than $1000. Saving money isn't the only reason they drive these cars as well. They break down, are expensive to fix in many cases but are a labor of many things. Part of saving money is doing the required work and research and giving your customer a quality product.
Err....don't know and think I'll stop there. scottyroccodiesel, sorry if this brought you off topic, but to me...this just doesn't smell right.
Joe
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no I hear ya, I talked about it with my dad and I am just going to save up for the summer and then go for the giles pump. in the long run it is defently the best way to go for performance , ease of install, and longevity. I just dont know if i should be looking for a td pump or can i just send him my tdi pump as a core ??? my dad gave me his number i should probably give him a call
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Giles and Tin-Tin alike would require you to send them a IDI TD pump (probably preferably an AAZ pump) and a TDI pump to work with. You pay on top of that for the modifications...
Joe
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oh man thats goin to be really pricey then.... darn
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If you look in the right spots...you can use a leaky pump or "core" pump as your candidate....both these guys reseal the pumps as part of the build. A nice thing to have considering the effects of ULSD now.
Joe
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my 12mm M pump was built at my old job in ohio,and he said if you supplied the parts he can build them for around 500 or so(neg oiate w/him)
but no one wants to take him up on the offer
if you tried my car,the throttle response is so nice,friends drive it and they are all jerky ....never had a diesel respond so nice
mines an 84 1.6 td pump with a 12mm head
thats where mine came from,and its been great for years
hey its no giles pump,but if i had traction id be in the 13's (99 mph trap speeds),and yea i still get 52 mpg driving to+from the track
its gotta be 80% as good as a giles pump for 1/2 price at least
you could build a pump at home,but id have it tested at a fuel lab before running it,send it to my boy
pm me if you are serious about having a good pump built
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hillfolk'r. Still, if I remember correctly (as we have talked in detail about this). Your pump that your friend built for you is MORE than just a IDI TD pump with a 12mm head. You had some timing considerations to take into effect as well, etc.
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There is another mechanical thing about different pump set-up.
A TDI motor need a quick injection of fuel, faster than IDI but It's not a secrecy, the TDI injection cicle is produced with a smaller pump rotation, I already made a funny test with different came plate maxed with bigger or smaller head rotor, and I found a cool result.
The more agresive cam plate makes move the plunger more faster for X° of pump rotation than the IDI came profile, thus
calculated with the cilyndrical volume of different plunger with the same °(degre) of pump rotation, a 10mm head with TDI ALH came plate have exactly the same result than the 14mm head with AAZ came plate, a set-up or the other on TDI engine does not change anything, it does not have there a noticeable difference.
The only thing which occurs in the pump it's that the TDI came plate lift of 2mm whereas the AAZ came lift of 1mm for the same degrée of rotation and the same amount of fuel, (obligatorily the inj. pressure is the same).
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There is another mechanical thing about different pump set-up.
A TDI motor need a quick injection of fuel, faster than IDI but It's not a secrecy, the TDI injection cicle is produced with a smaller pump rotation, I already made a funny test with different came plate maxed with bigger or smaller head rotor, and I found a cool result.
The more agresive cam plate makes move the plunger more faster for X° of pump rotation than the IDI came profile, thus
calculated with the cilyndrical volume of different plunger with the same °(degre) of pump rotation, a 10mm head with TDI ALH came plate have exactly the same result than the 14mm head with AAZ came plate, a set-up or the other on TDI engine does not change anything, it does not have there a noticeable difference.
The only thing which occurs in the pump it's that the TDI came plate lift of 2mm whereas the AAZ came lift of 1mm for the same degrée of rotation and the same amount of fuel, (obligatorily the inj. pressure is the same).
so you're saying that one could just put a 14mm head on an AAZ pump and it would act similarily to a 10mm TDI pump? hmmmmm and the cam plate lift difference of 1mm might help the AAZ pump rev a little higher while keeping the injection pressures??? very interesting stuff!
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In total of + ou - 3mm lift for both came plate, the AAZ one with 14 have more reserve for extra fueling, but probably too much.
I dont know about the plunger weight effect, the return effect or came plate floating.
And why BOSCH did not do it thus, euhh.. no 14mm because It's home made, but 12mm with lightly softer cam?
I found in the european Renault 1.9L DTI (TDI) electronic pump, there are 11mm factory plunger head with a little softer came plate than ALH one.
PS:in the other hand with IDI AAZ motor, the bigger plunger head that I have put on these engine is 11mm head, also I have already put a 10mm M-pump on these engine and the power feeling is better than with simply a 11mm mod.
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Older AAZ 3.20mm lift
Later AAZ 2.80mm lift
TDI 3.15mm lift
TDI auto 3.25 lift
1.5/1.6D/TD 2.20mm lift
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That should be in the FAQ for those inquiring minds that want to know. interesting that the older AAZ's had more lift than the TDI's.
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While the lift of the older AAZ camplate was higher than TDI's, the camplate profile still wouldn't be reflective of where it would need to be for a TDI for the best timing considerations.
That would be excellent info for in the FAQ though.
Joe
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In esitronic, the later AAZ injector installed with 2.80 cam open at lower pressure than older AAZ (3.2), but the cam profile is the same, cam lift is not only for hight rev.
I already tested a nice aggressive DI came plate with only 2.5mm lift in the M-pump, and I do not see a difference for the rev capability of the motor.
cam lift for me it's not an important thing.
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IDI motor and DI motor are two different thing.
On diesel engine there have specific moment to inject the diesel, It's a short laps of time, the start of fuel delivery is the timing and there is a limit in time to respect to inject the fuel, if the time of injection is too long, it's not good....... I dont know how to explain better....., now, DI engine work with much more injection pressure than IDI, there are opening inj. pressure, but It's not only this, after the injector are open, the pressure continues to go up much, but the pump need to inject a correct amount of fuel through these very small injector in a short laps of time, that takes an aggressive came plate to carry out this work.
If you put a IDI came plate on DI engine, yes the IDI came plate is capable to open and inject trough the DI injector, but the time to inject the correct amount of fuel is too long, you can reduce this time with a very very large injector with IDI came plate, but the injection atomisation will be too bad, but ok for IDI engine.
The most important thing in diesel, It's not only the amount of fuel, but the time, the time that this pressurised fuel will be injected.
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i dont know which camplate i got
but i do know that if you run a 210mm flywheel setup,,the timing marks dont work
you need to "find" tdc and re mark the flywheel
as far as the "correct" camplate,i guess mine works
maybe cause of the race 520 injectors
i wish i knew more of my internal pump specs,but my pump guy said its no big deal for him to duplicate my pump for others....
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I'm trying to offer a 1.6 M-TDI conversion package. I'll get the pistons in 2 months, but I'm still missing the TDI injectors needed. If that product is successful, you might see some extra pump business from it, too. I might need people like you who have time to explain exactly how things work. I get hundreds of emails every day, and don't have time to spend to give in depth answers.
Proth I still stand at your disposal to be your guinnie pig for your project!
I don't know if you remember but i have not heard from you in a while?
especially since you went out of the country last year!
iv'e built up a respect here that if your conversion works they will like to hear what the results would be from me? that coming from a nuetral position!
check your P.M. i sent you one a while back and you never read it!
let me know if were still on?
thanks Duane
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Ok, instead of using a different control lever with more travel, can I just use a thinner shim under the plunger foot? This is for my AAZ pump with a 10mm head and TDI cam plate. Or can I even use no shim or is it required for support?
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Well, I made a thinner shim so that the collar will be completely, or almost be completely (it's hard to tell) covering the hole in the plunger at full throttle. As Tintin had stated, without some kind of a mod, it was still quite open at full throttle. I am probably having the shop in town test it to see if it will work before I put it on the engine. BTW, no I didn't take pics.
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It was bottoming out because the plunger was larger than the hole in the AAZ cam plate. I got a TDI cam plate from you and now the plunger fits. I was making the thinner shim as the AAZ plunger has a small slit on the very end. But the TDI plunger has the opening in the same place, but it is open the whole way across, which is what I think Tintin was talking about when he says you need a TDI control lever for more movement of the collar to close the bleed port. I was thinking a thinner shim will move the plunger closer to the collar, closing the port more.
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In fact, if you push the control collar further with IDI lever, yes that will work, but It's impossible to back to the idle positon, because not enough movement from the lever.
An example, I do not give the real number, but an example:
From idle to full throttle on TDI, the collar on the plunger need to move 20mm, and with IDI lever the collar move only 5mm from idle to full throttle, probably 8mm with the fuel screw at the max and backing the idle at the max, You can understand that with 5mm that equal 1/4 throttle on the TDI, yes the engine run well, idle is fine, but no power.
This weird thing with IDI and TDI lever, is the relation with the came plate slope and the degre of the pump rotation.
Now... the lever its the easy part, the timing curve adjustemnt is the real challenge.
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Do you have any pictures showing the difference between a TDI and IDI lever?
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Ok, now I'm really lost. My collar could never move 20 mm as it would almost be completely off the part it rides on. Could it be that I have a 10 mm IDI head or is a 10 mm head a 10 mm head?
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Like I said, I give only an example and do not give the real number, thus 20mm is fictif number.
PM for the pic.
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Thanks for the pics.