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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: ericgoum on January 21, 2008, 06:47:33 am
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Hello again,
I posted last around the beginning of November with a no start issue that was solved by new Glow plugs. I live in Atlanta, GA and we have had a very mild/record warm winter. The last few weeks have seen temperatures dipping into the high teens which has got me into trouble a few times. One being that I was late on the first day of a new job, had to borrow a family members vehicle...needless to say I was a bit upset.
A momentary fix (it seems) was to buy some fuel additive after work that day. It ended up working quite nicely, the car even felt a bit peppier than before and starts were a bit quicker, but still a good bit slower than I'd like. I bought a gallon of the fuel additive and have been using about a cup per tank fill up for the last several tanks.
Cranking when below 35 degrees is usually takes a good 20-30 seconds a couple times with lots of white smoke coming out the back. I'm thinking that once again this is a glow plug issue. Can glow plugs that are 2.5 months old go bad? Yesterday I tried starting the car and it never quite made it, I just about cranked it dead in the process. The battery is fairly new and has 1100 CCAs which has saved me on the slightly warmer mornings. I did not bother trying this morning and instead borrowed a family members car.
What are my options? Looking around I have seen some mention putting synthetic oil in the car to help cold starting, I did see some Shell Rotella synthetic the other day, would this be adequate? I think it was 10w40, I now use 15w40 regular Rotella. Should I replace the Glow plugs again? They are only 10$ for a set but I'd hate to buy more if there is another problem that is messing them up.
Any help in this matter would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in Advance,
Eric
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I'd put a test light on them and see if they are getting power first, then making sure it goes off after a while. If they keep getting power, they won't last long. They should last longer than 2.5 mo though. If you have a meter to measure high current, you can measure current draw to see if any are bad, approximately 10 amps each. Or take the buss bar off and use a multimeter. My new one that is sitting here measures .52 ohms, though most meters don't measure that accurately and most don't zero out the test leads. So anywhere from .5-1 ohm should be good. Timing being off can also affect starting. Oil, like you mentioned can as well due to a lower cranking speed because of viscosity, plus the battery looses energy at colder temps.
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if the engine isn't cranking over fast enough then you need to get that resolved. there are a few other things that can make cold starting a PITA, and one of them in your case is the fact that your engine uses mechanical lifters that need to be adjusted every 15'000km's or so. if badly out of whack they can make cold starting hell and even warm starting!
also check to see if there are any bubbles in the fuel line. it just seems like your fuel could be either leaking out or draining back to the tank over time. then in the morning when you go to start your car not only are you cranking to start it, but you're also bleeding out the lines which can take up to a few minutes! any noticeable leaks???
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I have not noticed any leaks, although when I go to start cranking there is usually a 5 second period where there is no white smoke then it starts pouring out. I was planning on getting the lifters adjusted and timing checked within the week because of these start issues. He has just finished redoing all that on his '81 rabbit and he started right up last night when it was in the 20's. I will go double check the lines and see if there is something I overlooked.
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if you have a vacuum pump available you can do a test.. put the vacuum on the OUT port of the pump and begin to pull a vacuum. pull enough that there is no air bubbles (you would want it to have a little container to hold the fuel like one to bleed brakes)
if you do that and the car starts right up, then you know what the problem is :wink:
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I've heard that over tightening the glow plugs can ruin them.
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I read that as well, I did not have a torque wrench when installing them, however, I made sure not to over tighten them the best I could. Of course that can be left open to scrutiny. I bought some fairly cheap plugs...Autolite because I was in a jam and needed the car to run asap. I went ahead and purchased some Bosch plugs today, when they are installed I will go to my friends and see if we can mess with the lifters and timing to get things sorted and running the way they should. It never has cranked well from the very get go. Like I said the friend who has done all this work gets his car to crank immediately in 20 degree weather, where as I still sit there when it is in the 50's to 60's and let it crank for 5-10 seconds. I hope to have my car start as good as his at some point.
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You could just have low compression.
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The simplest thing to try is checking the glow plugs again individually with a multi meter. Don't assume they are still good , eliminate them from your enquiries as they say in the english cop shows. Then go on to the other possible causes. It would be helpful to get a compression reading also if at all possible. You can crank forever if it is real low. The other suggestions about air in the fuel lines are good too. feed it with pair of hoses into a bottle of fuel held above the IP( supply and return). this will eliminate another couple of variables ie air in lines or plugged fuel filter. Timing makes a difference as well but is not as easy to check. Does your cold start advance do anything or have no effect. If so maybe there is a problem with your IP. Try the simple cheap stuff first and report back so the Hive mind can digest. Cheers Dan
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Don't assume your new ones are good, test them as well
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Lots of good suggestions, my best bet would be timing. The weather you're talking about isn't cold, you've got issues! One way around it would be a block heater, but I don't worry about it here until it's WAAAYY below freezing (closer to 0F). You shouldn't need it if everything's right. if everything's right.
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I'd bet that the fusible link in the glow bus circuit has failed. Check it out.
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So I got the new glow plugs in. They tested good and I put them in. The ones I took out were covered in a thin film that was on there pretty good. I'm not sure if that is normal or not with used glow plugs, just thought I'd throw it out there. The car would start better after that but there was still a good bit of cranking required. Unfortunately I was unable to get it going in time to make the drive to get its timing done and now my friend is out of town for a while.
After replacing the plugs I tried to start again and the battery just would not crank for very long, maybe 10 seconds before dead. I trickle charged it for 8 hours and it still only lasted 10 seconds or so. So I bought a new battery and that definitely seeemed to help. I decided to order a remanufactured set of injectors as well since it was something I was planning on doing anyways and maybe it would help out in my hard starting issues. They arrived yesterday and I put them in. While taking the old out I noticed that the hoses that daisy chain to each of the injectors were pretty bad off and actually broke quite easy when taking them off. I luckily had some new fuel hose lying around and put that on. The car however will not start, it actually hasn't started all weekend. Its been in the 60's here in Atlanta.
At this point I'm gonna have to wait until the weekend to check the timing so I'm stuck driving a family truck which costs me 20$ in gas a day to drive!!! :evil:
So I have a few questions, the starter isn't sounding as good as it used to. Is it possible with all my long cranking that I messed it up to where it will not spin fast enough to do the job? Besides timing and checking compression is there anything esle I should look for? I have checked and rechecked the glow plug system and I know it is in good working condition. I have checked for air leaks in the fuel and there are none.
Any help would be greatly appreciated as always!!!
Eric
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check battery grounds, cable connections to starter.
switch to 0w40 synthetic oil for colder temps... but 60F is like 15C and thats warm.
sounds to me like you have compression issues or something that is a more major problem (timing?). i dont think you even really need glowplugs at 15C but i could be wrong.
if the starter is bad that is a good place to start but at 15C it should fire up happily. roll it down a hill to start it maybe? :lol:
you're going to have to work the air out of the fuel system now too probably. crank it over, loosen each injector union until you see fuel seep out, then tighten it up. do that to all 4 individually and it will purge the air faster (it will purge either way but this will take less cranking).
if you have leaks in those return lines you replaced, the fuel will drain back into the tank and refill your lines with air. make sure you have a clear fuel line in there somewhere to see what's going on. clear from fuel filter to IP is a good idea.
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Other issues aside here, if your battery is crapping out that fast, it's too small. I've literally heard small batteries "sizzle" :shock: when taking the full brunt of the alternator (350 CCA). Many places will sell a too-small battery for diesels. You should get at the very least an 850 CCA rated battery...BUT that won't solve your hard-start issues. It will turn your engine over properly though.
Cheers,
Andy
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If you are cranking for more than 30 seconds at a time without letting the starter cool down for at least one minute, you will fry the starter.
See a few of the posts on rewiring the starter, (LARGE WIRE CABLES!)
I use a DuraLast 65-DLG...The post are backwards for the standard cables, I use some 2/0 weld cables for to feed my starter, with the ground lead tied to the Starter bolt at the top. The only start problems I have had are/were do to a blown head gasket and only 3 cylinders working.
If you can get AC power to the vehical, you can use a ceramic heater under the engine to pre heat.. well everything.... in the engine bay.
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So I finally broke down and had the Jetta towed to a mechanic to check it out. After a few days he got in touch with me and confirmed my fears. It has low compression. He said he was getting reading between 225 and 275, I asked him what is normal and he said 300 is minimum. Is this correct? I know I have read about it before but can't remember exactly what it should be.
I then asked how much it would cost to fix...1500$!!!! I said I would have to think about it and hung up. Now, I only paid 1700$ for this car in the first place and although it has saved me 1200$ in gas since my last car that is still crazy expensive and quite out of reach for a non-working student. Are there any suggestions on what I can do or how hard/expensive it would be to do on my own assuming I have a pretty good garage to work in? It almost seems that I could buy a working engine on ebay or somewhere else for cheaper and just drop it in...am I crazy for thinking like this?
Its not everyday you find a diesel like this on the road or even for sale and I'd love to keep saving money by driving this diesel. I do have a 1980 bmw euro 635csi that is about ready to run but I only planned it to be a weekend driver not a daily...it'll probably only get 20mpg at best which sucks compared to the jetta....any help would be most appreciated!!
Thanks in advance,
Eric
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It's not hard to rebuild one in my opinion, and way cheaper than $1500. If it isn't too worn and you just need rings(I'd do bearings as well) I doubt it would be over $200 including all needed gaskets. Maybe a bit more if you did all seals. I'd get total seal rings myself as even if you have some wear, they should still seal well.
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According to bentley the wear limit is 398PSI, mine are all around 375 and it runs perfect. I don't know how easy it is to find these engines were you live but it's worth considering. You could just get a "cheap" one to put in your car and rebuild your's little by little.
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I decided to go ahead and rebuild the engine. When taking it apart the middle ring on 3 of the 4 pistons was broken. I guess that helped the hard starting eh?....The valves also needed to be reground or replaced, I left that up to the machine shop.
Anyways, it really has been fun rebuilding the engine and just happened to correspond with my spring break. At the moment I am waiting for a machine shop to finish the head and block. It was actually cheaper to get oversized pistons so I had the shop bore the block out to match. With any luck the engine should be back together this weekend. I have a few questions though about what to do when done.
I have been searching on here for a proper break in procedure as well as proper oil to start with. It seems from my search that synthetic oil is not good at least in the beginning...that true? What sort of driving should I do to make sure the rings get seated well and that I have a happy "new" engine? When can I expect the engine to be fully broken in? Any other thoughts on the subject that I didn't bring up would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks again for all help on the matter!!
Eric
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I decided to go ahead and rebuild the engine. When taking it apart the middle ring on 3 of the 4 pistons was broken. I guess that helped the hard starting eh?....The valves also needed to be reground or replaced, I left that up to the machine shop.
Anyways, it really has been fun rebuilding the engine and just happened to correspond with my spring break. At the moment I am waiting for a machine shop to finish the head and block. It was actually cheaper to get oversized pistons so I had the shop bore the block out to match. With any luck the engine should be back together this weekend. I have a few questions though about what to do when done.
I have been searching on here for a proper break in procedure as well as proper oil to start with. It seems from my search that synthetic oil is not good at least in the beginning...that true? What sort of driving should I do to make sure the rings get seated well and that I have a happy "new" engine? When can I expect the engine to be fully broken in? Any other thoughts on the subject that I didn't bring up would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks again for all help on the matter!!
Eric
synthetic oil will 'glaze' the cylinder walls before the rings are broken in (they conform to the shape of the cylinder) so you actually want them to wear a bit. do this by using something like rotella T 15w40. and you also want to drive it hard to load the rings, and keep changing rpm's if you can. (driving on the highway with constant rpm's won't seat those rings anytime soon, and driving too fast won't do much good either)
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So I finally finished rebuilding the motor this past weekend and my god what a difference in power/torque. I had no idea these engines would pull so well. I can actually keep good pace with cars around town, usually I don't drive that hard but I gotta break it in some how :wink:
The car actually starts up like a car should...immediately. I wanted to thank everyone for the help when I had questions.
Thanks!!!
Eric