VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: oldskool rich on December 30, 2007, 04:45:48 pm
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right, i switched my cam plate 180 timed with the all the tools execept the gauge, IT JUST WONT START! not even close, it smokes, but doesnt juder or splutter what so ever
i thort i may have over torqued injectors, so i torqued up an old aaz injector to about 100 and conected it to a fuel line, it pumper out plenty of fuel. it doesnt make any sence,
my last hope is to use a timing gauge but that wont tell me if im 180 out will it?
im so pissed off with it, and i desperatly need my truck on the road quick time, its the 3rd engine its had, never had any trouble untill now.
please any ideas will be much apreciated
i know its not the compression or anything like that, cus i had it workin off my abortion of a mtdi pump. im at my witts end
if anyone is a pro that lives in or near cov id be happy to pay you if you can fix it
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my last hope is to use a timing gauge but that wont tell me if im 180 out will it?
your first hope should always be to use a timing gauge. eyeballing might get the engine running, but running like crap. even if the pump is out it will start, but as Tintin stated in the previous thread, it will run like crap and have little to no power, and probably smoke bad.
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I couldn't get my rabbit started (The battery kept dying) so I got towed down the block (not fast at all) and about a half block down the road, she was running like a champ.
But, I agree with the above, it won't start when the timing is out.
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who put the pump together? What all did you change from the running to not running situation?
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id just be happy if it wud run like crap tbh, i tried towing it for about 2 miles, still not even a splutter
it worked like crap and off a tow start wen i was running the tdi cam plate, all ive done is swap back to my aaz plate, now it wont start at all, but that makes no sence to me, surly if there is fuel cuming out it should be running
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id just be happy if it wud run like crap tbh, i tried towing it for about 2 miles, still not even a splutter
it worked like crap and off a tow start wen i was running the tdi cam plate, all ive done is swap back to my aaz plate, now it wont start at all, but that makes no sence to me, surly if there is fuel cuming out it should be running
there is only a small window (1.00mm +- 0.20mm) so if you think about it, without the timing gauge its easy for it not to start.... just get yourself the timing gauge already!!!
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I had the same problem when I put my pump back together.
Things to make sure of:
-power to glow plugs
-pump has prime
-Air bled at injector lines
-Pump in rough time
Since you had the pump apart I am assuming you had the throttle(governor) assembly apart. If all the rest is good then it is very likely the throttle lever is slightly off (this is what happened to me). The lever only has a few degrees of travel and if it is slightly off the car won't start or will run-away.
This adjustment takes a bit of trial and error. Mine went from non running (but blowing smoke) to running away as soon as it would kick over until I got it right. There should be a scribe mark bi-secting the end of the trottle shaft that you can use for reference. It can be frustrating so if you have to do it make sure it's with a fresh mind.
Let us know what it ends up being so it can be added to "the list" of no-start issues.
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ok ive done all those things, but still cant get hold of a gauge untill next week, wen u say govener, u meen the wheel with the fly weights and the little bar sticking out the middle, that fell apart and i dont know if it went back together properly, can i just take that wheel off all togeather, cus ive done the govener mod anyway, maybe its that thats not letting the control sleve move, it doesnt do anything else apart from being a limiter does it?
if this isnt what u meen, can u dumb it down for me, i dont know what things are called :cry:
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The drive pin in the came plate must be aligned with the keyway on the shaft pump, where you bolt the timing belt pulley, like somebody said to you in your other post.
You really tested to turned the fuel screw 1 turn at a time until the motor finally start, screw it at the max if you need.
I'm do not remember exactly, but 1 turn on the fuel screw = 0.20mm on the plunger control sleeve, would be need that I look in my book notes in my garage.
edit: I suspect your ground plunger which do not have the good position on the cam, and you sure that is a right turn plunger?
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ok the plunger is off an AFN, like i said, it worked like *** with the tdi cam plate, ok now i understand what you meen by "keyway" ill have to take it apart again to check that out :roll: ,
here is sum pics of the dona pump
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/fingerbanger/PA150068.jpg)
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/fingerbanger/PA150067.jpg)
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/fingerbanger/PA150066.jpg)
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/fingerbanger/PA070063.jpg)
it turns the same way as the aaz pump unless the afn spins backwards, which i doubt :?
to eliminate the governer can i just take that whole wheel and fly weight thing out?
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I was talking about the splined accelerator shaft that the throttle arm and accelerator cable attach to that actually manipulates the control sleve. If it is off by a couple splines it will give too much or not enough fuel.
I hadn't realized about the level of modifications that you had done though so there may be more to your problem.
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i wouldn't take the governor out... it's a good safety device. without it the engine might just rev to hell and blow up :shock:
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my govener mod is a load of washers instead of a spring, i have a rev counter with shift light instead so that wheel serves no purpose.
btw how much max rpm can my engine take safley?
im gona take it all apart one last time if it doent work i will go back to a standard pump :roll:
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It sounds like you really need to learn a lot about Diesels before you start messing with anything, otherwise you are probably going to end up destroying your engine. You need to fully understand the engine, what mods are possible, and what the mods do, and it sounds like you don't really know any of it. If I were you, I'd take your truck somewhere, get it fixed and then do an awful lot of reading.
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thanx for the advice, i dont pretend to know alot, the problem is im quite dyslexic so i have trouble reading up :oops: its a bit embarrassing, all ive learned is from putting my last aaz together bit by bit like a jigsaw, and was very pleased with the finished product, just whish id known about the pully problem
im sorry if im wasting everyones time with stupid questions
i know i have much to learn but ive already leaned so much off here
ill get there in the end, i do appreciate everyones help
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also i dont hav the money to get people to do stuff for me :cry:
just hav to keep trying until it works
and wen it all goes wrong ill try again :roll:
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Maybe if there are any local meets, you can make friends with locals who can help you as this will save both time and money over the trial and error method. I don't think anyone on here minds helping, but some things are just hard to diagnose if you aren't there actually seeing what's going on.
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where i live the only diesel scene is f6squared which is me and my mates, im an active member of the local vw comunity, i know everyone there is to know but there all into gassers :roll: apart from us guys, theres no where to learn all this stuff apart from trial and error
if you can recomend a good book then ill giv it a go
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Haven't read any books, but I did a lot of reading of the archives on this forum before I even got my Diesel, and it probably saved me many headaches, except when I missed the part about marking the throttle shaft before you take the linkage off. :oops: DOH!! Well at least you have a few friends there to help. I've had to learn everything by myself, so I have to check and double check everything before I do it. Hope you get the pump squared away soon. When you figure the problem out, be sure to let us know so that if it happens to someone else, we will have a better understanding of what was happening.
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i didnt get chance to do any work today but instead i met up with rubadubdub (aka paul) realy nice extreamly helpfull guy, hes much smarter than me and so he found a load of realy good links and threads for me to look at. whilst looking through these i may hav found the problem, if sumone has anymore knowledge to offer.
ive removed and then reienstalled this shaft but didnt mark where it was before, can this be the problem as it sounds like this has sumthin to do with fueling from start up?
"The position of this shaft is important because it regulates the system of initial injection by vacuum (?). It's wise therefore, to mark the position of this shaft during pump disassembly"
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l16/fingerbanger/dsc05398.jpg)
can anyone explain exactly what is the "system of initial injection"?
and which way should i screw it to help me? or am i way off?
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I don't know if it's just me or not, but I can't see your pics. If you are talking about the throttle shaft, going into the top of the pump, you do have to mark it or your engine will probably either run away or not start. If that is the one you are talking about, what i had to do was remove the springs and everything else from the shaft. Have someone sty to start the car while you have one hand ready to pull the wire on the fuel solenoid, and try slowly turning the shaft to give it more fuel with the other. If/when it starts and is close to idle, turn it off, put the throttle linkage on without the springs and without moving the shaft, putting it on as closely as you can to it's normal at rest position. Mark it, then put everything back together the way it should be. You may have to adjust the residual fuel screw, the one the linkage stops against, if the idle doesn't come back down when you rev the engine. If that isn't what you are talking about, then never mind. :P
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im well aware of that, id just be happy if it started atall, the throttle may not be set up perfectly but ive been pumping the pedal so it should atleast giv me judder or a stutter, but ive been getting nothing,
the picture shows the shaft that goes through the govener wheel, aparently it must be in the right place or it cant produce enough vaccume for sum kind of initial injection? im confussed i dont know what this meens
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where i live the only diesel scene is f6squared which is me and my mates, im an active member of the local vw comunity, i know everyone there is to know but there all into gassers :roll: apart from us guys, theres no where to learn all this stuff apart from trial and error
if you can recomend a good book then ill giv it a go
Rich buddy,
did you look in the FAQ section there is a link to a pic. by pic. DIY to put a pump back together? sorry i can't help you you in over me head because i have not open up a pump on my own yet! I copyed it on paper incase i got some ambition! but that might help or see if you can find a good used pump till you figure out yours?
thanks Duane
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I suggest that you are trying to run before you can walk with all the mods you are doing. No reason why you can't run in the future though :wink:
One easy way to check fueling sync with TDC on compression is to take off valve cover. Then losen nut on #1 injector. Get someone to crank engine acouple of seconds whilst watching for the diesel pulse. It should be easy to see it dribble when cam lobes are pointing upwards.
Always best to change one thing at a time from a known good position that way it is easy to take a step back IMO :idea:
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maybe ur right, although the only new mod this time around is the pump piston & head, ive seen everything else work. ive seen all the picture diagrams ect, its not like i dont know how the pump works, i just cant seem to pin point why my set up doesnt work and its confusing the *** out of me, because in my mind it realy shud work
theres fuel coming out but its not firing up :roll:
surly thats not even possible? :?
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Just do that fuel squirt at the right time thing.... I assume you had the pump off when you changed parts so it may have happened then. Just 20 minutes graft :wink: Even if it only ticks another thing off the list. :!:
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i wanted to be 100% sure the timing wasnt 180 out so i took the pump apart again, turns out it was :roll:
put the pump together again will find out if it works tomorow, im posative it will work this time
ill tell you how it goes
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good deal wish you best!
Duane
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:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
she lives, it took a while and help from rubadubdub aka paul but we got it going and sounds better than ever before
the thottle response is amazing :shock: it sounds and acts totaly different from b4, loads better
it took a load of revolutions to prime it and we had nearly given up, i just kept fidling with the max fuel screw whilst paul carnked it over and eventualy it came to life very lumpy at first then gave a mighty roar as it over reved b4 we set it up, moved the pump until it sounded right (unable to use a gauge because its a 2005 tdi pump head) we have the wrong sleeve
only problem now is the oil light is constantly flashing and its not the sensor (tried 2 of them), any ideas? shud i change my oil pump?
also big thanx to paul, cudnt of done it without you mate :wink:
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glad to se it fired up!
still the 1.9tdi camplate?
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no im using the early AAZ plate with a pump piston machined to fit.
i cant use the gauge cus its for an IDI and my pumphead is tdi, just cant get an accurate reading, wen i get hold of the right sleeve ill set it up.
if there was a problem with the oil pump the buzzer wud come on wudnt it?
cus wen im booting it the high pressure sensor wud fail which it doesnt, i may hav forgoten to remove this wire wen i took the old engine out and it may hav become stretched and maybe grounded, wud that make sense?
like i always say, why fix it wen u can just learn to live with it :lol: