VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: Greasecar on December 19, 2007, 02:12:04 pm
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Now that I have my maroon car on the road as my daily driver I can turn my attention to putting a TDI into my other shell as originally planned. The only change is now I have two engine options. When I was originally thinking of building a Rabbit TDI I hoped to drop in a PD engine but when my Golf burned up I figured I may as well just use the ALH engine. Right when I had everything together to build up the ALH a BEW PD motor fell in my lap. The engine dropped a glowplug which totalled one of the pistons, damaged the head and somehow destroyed the turbo. Fortunately I was able to source a turbo, head and pistons for around $800 so now I am torn as to which engine to use.
On one hand the ALH is a straightforward swap and would give me the option to run a mechanical injection system, on the other hand a PD would be way more unique.
Any opinions on this?
Tintin, VWMike, what are your thoughts from working with the PD. Did I understand correctly from the syncro build that you used an ECU from the ALH?
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doubt you could get an ecu from an ALH to run a PD. maybe if you were a god with electronics you could flash the ecu with a PD program. will the ECU let you reprogram the whole thing? meaning it can be electronically erased?? EEPROM?
i'd go with whichever is easier to get running. apparently there is some guy on TDIclub running veg on a PD engine. very interesting, but i wouldn't experiment on such a good engine. i know of a guy who installed a PD into a vw mk2 jetta/golf. you don't really need much electronic wise to get the motor running. delete the EGR.
much more power potential on the PD, but the ALH would be nice in mechanical form :)
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I'm not worried about the vegoil, my Passat PD has been runnning on it for 60K and we have over 100 customers who have been running them for the last few years. I just tore down the BEW that I am thinking of using for the project which had 50-60K on vegoil. The pistons were cleaner than the ones from the low milage parts motor that had been running diesel (except the cylinder that the glowplug tip dropped into).
I was reading TinTin's syncro thread where he made some comments about running the engine with the bare minimum of wiring and checking out the pinout and code on an ALH ECU but I couldn't tell if he was actually using the ECU or not.
Jtanguay, Do you have more details on that Europeand PD swap with the simple wiring that you posted in Tintin's thread? How are you approaching your PD swap?
I need to read through my Bosch ECU book which gives some insight into the control system for the VEs compared to the PDs. How do you do the EGR delete on the PD? I was researching it but only came up with info on ALH. Would have been a big help as I was fighting with a busted EGR valve in my Passat last week.
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i bought the whole setup from vw4motion over at TDIclub. i've put my project on hold as i don't really have any place to do the swap. mainly because of the fact that i'll need to weld on some motor mounts. it'll be one tough install thats for sure.
i'll try to ask peter if he can get me anymore info. he's starting to import the PD's and would like to get complete conversion packages out there.. simple wiring and all.
i've invested in a promising oil and gas company in hopes of making a couple grand to help pay for the installation of the motor + some cool ass manifolds from dave :) so until that money comes in, the PD will have to wait, but my m-TDI will be moving forward... but the head gasket i bought doesn't fit my tdi 1Z block!!! aargh i thought i gave the right part number from ETKA... :(
stock symbol is MOO.V on the yahoo finance. :wink:
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Very interesting Justin, considering the PD engine and all in the MK1. I would have preferred to go the route of PD honestly for the b3...but only if I had EVERYTHING to go with it. All wiring, etc. etc.
As for the Mk1 though, i like the operation of the mTDI and the simplicity of the setup vs. the power trade off....especially when it has a properly built pump. Good stuff. Not to mention, the VE motors still seem to pull a bit better mileage out of them than the PD's...
I've also done alot of reading over on TDIclub regarding the PD's, etc. There are alot of considerations to take into account.
I remember Malone having some fun with his too :)
Joe
p.s. Let me rephrase that... I would have like to have the 2.0 PD motor offered in the Passat *for swap into my b3* way to expensive to find and even source parts for. I wouldn't turn away a 1.9 PD 8v though :) In some ways, with all the bits...it'd make life easier.
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I agree about the simplicity and performance of the ALH/AHU setup especilly M-TDI, but I am up for a challenge. I still need to do some more reading up on what I'm getting into but I have a friend who is doing the same swap with a European PD (into a Caddy)and one of my installers is importing parts from Germany so I figure both of those connections will help. If I do go the PD route I can always put the ALH into my maroon car once the 1.6 kicks the bucket.
I don't have an ECU but I do have the engine wiring harness as well as the pedal and cluster out of my Golf (don't know whether those will cross over though).
Anyone know of any European sites that may have useful info on such a swap?
Check this out if you haven't seen it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_wvaXi_CYU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmVw8Pwkf3U
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wow they must have basically just used the bare minimum wiring for that engine as it sounded louder than a 1.6.
kept the stock cluster too... that thing is crazy fast!!!!
GO PD :lol:
i think the main reasons that PD engines get worse mileage is that they're in heavier cars and produce more hp so people tend to drive them a bit harder. being tuned for the sake of lower emissions isn't helping mileage much either...
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i think the main reasons that PD engines get worse mileage is that they're in heavier cars and produce more hp so people tend to drive them a bit harder. being tuned for the sake of lower emissions isn't helping mileage much either...
Too true.
Def. don't get me wrong either. I'm not against PD :)'s I think it'd be fun and honestly I don't think wiring is all that challenging...now, getting it to run on as little as possible...that could be more of a challenge, but def GO FOR IT. Sometimes, honestly...you get alot more into the mTDI...doing it RIGHT than you would doing an eTDI swap...
If I had access and/or funds for a PD for a decent price. I'd be all over it.
I'm def. going to check out that site.
Joe
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WOW...that is quick...and maybe very stealthy for all those unsuspecting cars out there because it sounds like a IDI :) or louder!
Very nice vid though...looks interesting. Wonder what the "pop off turbo diesel" device is. I'm assuming, watching and looking at the vid...and listening that it is a diesel pop off valve...similar to this.
http://www.ricambituning.it/product1.asp?id=483&cat=45
He also does show the ECM there, with obviously and IMB defeat of some kind. Very nice.
Joe
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would be nice to change ecu settings on the fly... that engine sounds like it has a ton of advance :lol: .
at the strip make it sound like an IDI hehe... of course under the hood will let everyone know whats up.
it is possible to get these engines running on bare minimum. stick a resistor of the right kind to give the baseline reading in each sensor. the engine will run, and run good except in extreme cold or extreme heat, and there will probably be more black smoke out the back etc. due to the pump being 'blind' of what is really going on inside the engine.
i've been wondering why there's nobody out there selling a kit for TDI's to run like this. basically have a unit that plugs into the ECU to in a sense change it to 'mechanical'. that way you don't need to buy an m-TDI pump or anything special. and if your pump dies you can just buy another electronic TDI pump of the same model. would sure make swaps a breeze :wink: somethings like boost pressure sensing might be a good idea to plug in though... but could all be adapted in some sort of 'kit'.
watching this car REALLY makes me want to get my PD installed into something... :twisted:
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I found a couple of other PD in Mk II videos that were pretty cool too. I tried looking up that "Pop-Off Turbodiesel" but only came up with blow off valves. Must be some on demand tuning chip judging by the little toggle switch in the video. Much smaller than my VanAken box.
As far as I can tell the most important sensor to run a PD is the cam position sensor and accel pedal. For those of you reading that haven't looked into it, the PD injector is like a cam driven syringe with a solenoid check valve. When the piston raises the solenoid stays open to allow the injector to draw fuel off the fuel rail. Then the solenoid snaps shut to create the back pressure needed fo the injector to build pressure on the down stroke. I belive the solenoid can also be pulse modulated during the injection to control quantity and duration.
In short, the key to making the injector fire at all is the ability to control that solenoid at TDC and BDC at least. The MAF, fuel temp, Boost etc., etc. give the ECU all of the detail info to make the engine run well. VWmike and Tintin have looked into the code and pinout so they would know for sure what the bare minimum is but this is what I can assume on face value.
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If I do go the PD route I can always put the ALH into my maroon car once the 1.6 kicks the bucket.
...or you could sell the ALH, I bet I know someone who would buy it ;)
Either swap will be awesome. If it was me I'd probably got the mtdi route (or etdi, since you have all the parts), then work on building and learning about the PD swap and put that into the maroon rabbit when that blows.
Looking forward to seeing whatever you end up doing!
J
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Little update:
Finally got some time this weekend to work on the project a bit. I pulled the old 1.6 gas engine and cleaned the bay up a bit.
(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd32/Greasecar/DSC00023-1.jpg)
(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd32/Greasecar/DSC00015-2.jpg)
Right now my plan is to drop in the PD motor because, well, it's more of a challenge and I have pretty much everything I need. I finished stripping the Bottom end and the block and crank are now at the machine shop. The block is BEW and I found a good low mileage BRM head and piston set to mate up to it.
(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd32/Greasecar/DSC00024-2.jpg)
I have the engine harness and hopefully I can use the gauge cluster and accel. pedal from my ALH Golf but I need to pick up an ECU and figure out what I other ins and outs I need. Right now it looks like :
Sensors
-MAP
-MAF
-Fuel temp
-OXY
Output
-N75
Hopefully the EGR can be eliminated but need to figure out if the intake flapper has any significant purpose other than smoother engine shut down. I have been trying to find other PD MK 1 or 2 swap build threads but so far no good. If anyone stumbles across something let me know.
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http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=137037
i know of a few more but can't seem to find them atm
;)
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Cal-
Thanks. Looks like a good start and one to add to the ALH builds (interesting approach to the front motor mount) hopefully there are some PD ones out there too.
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http://www.edition38.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=77916&hl=dan-ish
;)
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I get an error with that link. What section of the forum is it from and what date?
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http://www.edition38.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=77916
try that
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Okay, I had to register in order to see the link. Too bad he never posted the wiring info that he mentioned.
I've heard that there are several different ECU part number sequences to match up with different years or auto vs. manual transmissions. Has anyone heard this or should any BEW ECU work with any BEW engine once the immobilizer is dealt with?
I'm really not concerned with the mechanical part of this project, It's just the electrical that concerns me due to lack of experience and resources. I still have to track down a BEW ECU and apparently a second engine wiring harness (I have the one that connects to fuel temp, injectors etc. apparently there is a second one that connects to the MAF, turbo and a few other things.) If anyone has any of this stuff let me know.
I have a full A4 TDI chassis harness, with matching cluster and ignition so hopefully I can get an A4 BEW ECU re-flashed to match and mate the chassis and engine wiring through it.
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Just a bit of an update.
No I haven't given up, just really busy with everything else.
(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd32/Greasecar/IMG_00061.jpg)
After months of tracking down parts, receiving wrong parts and tracking down more parts I have my BEW short block together and everything else I need (as far as I know) to finish putting the engine together.
(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd32/Greasecar/IMG_00081.jpg)
I finally tracked down a MK 4 BEW ECU and have a MK 4 Chassis harness and BEW engine harness (still need some vac solenoids, MAF and MAP sensors) and I need to find someone to help with the ECU tuning and deletes (Mike? TinTin?) I have been trying to get a hold of Jeff at Rocket Chip but he seems to be quite busy.
I am also pretty far along with my MK4 dash install. I have the dash support mocked up and temporarily installed, acc pedal installed, Mk4 column modified and installed and dash in place.
I will be using the 02J transmission out of my salvaged Golf and had been planning on using a cable clutch conversion but have been told by someone who has done it in the past that their cable was constantly snapping. So I am considering a hydraulic clutch but haven't found a good candidate for a master cyl/ pedal assembly. Anyone know of a good setup to swap into a Mk1? Currently I am looking at Corrado clutch masters and having to build a pedal assembly.
I still need a front motor mount and side and rear transmission mounts. Joe sent me a drawing a few months back for the side tranny mount but I still need to figure out the rear and front engine mount. I saw that WRD has a tanny mount set I just wish it wasn't $300 but that may beat 2 days of design and fabrication otherwise. Anyone else have mounts for sale or drawings available?
I was hoping to get the car somewhat together for WaterFest but I'm moving to a new shop and just hired 5 new employees so I don't know how realistic that will be. Any help or suggestions on the mounts would be much appriciated.
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VERY NICE Justin....i bet gas prices are keeping your business very busy!
Joe
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Dan Bubb (J. Daniel) on VW Vortex makes 02J mounts and they are very high quality. http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2248088
I've met the guy before and he's a real straight shooter, and his fab work is top notch.
Good luck with the build, looks like it's coming along nicely. :)
Brendan
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TinTin, VWMikel and myself are using EDC15P ECU's from an ARL/ASZ (PD150/130) It uses a 40 pin for the engine and an 80 pin for MAF, boost, TPS, Cruise, EGR, etc. You can use an ALH harness for the 80 pin side. It is almost 100% identical (with excpetion of the EGR and Flap). This gives easy tunning, immobilizer delete & egr cycle reduction. It also requires less sensor inputs. It basically like an ALH set-up but with the pins for cam position sensor and 4 injector controls. .
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I haven't played around with ECU tuning, will I be able to get things running with my RossTech? Is there any resource or build thread that covers the ECU programming? I have tried to get in touch with RocketChip but haven't gotten a response. I know Mikel was keeping his deletes etc. under wraps out of respect for those who do it as a profession.
I am using a MK 4 ignition and chassis harness and the BEW engine harness both of which, of course, fit my Mk4 BEW ECU, I just don't know how to get everything calculated and able to deal with all the missing chassis hardware.
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Actually, I do think VWMikel is offering programming as a service. I am not sure if he can offer anything for your BEW though. It would be worth your time to email him. You can not reprogram tuning with your Rosstech vag-com or hex, but you can use it to check/clear the codes your getting and work through them till it will run right. I don't want to sound like an expert on vag-com, as I have not even plugged mine into my ECU yet.
I have not looked through the BEW wire diagrams, so I am not much help with that one. If it was AHU, ALH or ARL/ASZ..I could help more. All you can do is work through it one pin at a time. Focus on the pins that are required to operate the engine. Its good to get a handle on the pins that require grounds & +12V. Then look at your cluster tie-inns. Then your A/C, fan and cruize control. I find that stradegy works good for me.
Just a final note, my current project motor is a BHW (2005 Passat 2.0 PD engine) very similar in OEM systems to your BEW. The EDC15P ECU is a nice simple replacement for the north american OEM engine.
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Well, I'll definately need all the help I can get on the ECU but should be able to handle the mechanical and wiring (my tech support manager "Turbofan" already did the pinout map for the engine harness).
lbreton-
I have a BHW in my Passat, to my knowledge most of the differences are in the bottom end and manifolds. Are you the one who cut out the balance shafts when you did your engine swap? Very bold, I like when people treat their engines like engines rather than delicate engineering marvels.
Here is the dash mock up
(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd32/Greasecar/IMG_00211.jpg)
Acc pedal mounted
(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd32/Greasecar/IMG_00231.jpg)
Column adaptation
(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd32/Greasecar/IMG_00261.jpg)
(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd32/Greasecar/IMG_00501.jpg)
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Well, I'll definately need all the help I can get on the ECU but should be able to handle the mechanical and wiring (my tech support manager "Turbofan" already did the pinout map for the engine harness).
lbreton-
I have a BHW in my Passat, to my knowledge most of the differences are in the bottom end and manifolds. Are you the one who cut out the balance shafts when you did your engine swap? Very bold, I like when people treat their engines like engines rather than delicate engineering marvels.
tech support manager? ok..I will admit I am a bit envious of that scenario. :)
I took a look through the BEW wire diagram this morning. There are not many differences. 4 wire glowplug system, oxygen sensor, ABS link..and a bunch of "other" chasis connections. I am willing to bet that the engine wil run fine without most of the chasis connections.
yes, I am the one with the lobectomoy on the balance shaft module. :lol: Its an educated guess that it will work not only "just fine" but probably really well. It definatley solves the chain overloading problem, and the Swaintech PC9 coated pump drive is going to work good too I think. I all ready tested it for fit and it is way more snug than the OEM. My RS4 flywheel is 13.6 pounds, so I don't think the BS module would of lasted very long with the inherent weekness.
That dash and cluster will be a nice upgrade.