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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: Norm on March 20, 2005, 06:24:35 am
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Hi all,
First things first, I have 1996 Jetta TD, but the manuals I have seem to show different sprockets than those on my car.
The other day the car started to idle rough... shortly after... or within a day or so, it became bad enough that I needed to keep my cold advance lever pulled out all the time otherwise the engine wouldn't idle.. It seemed to be a timing issue... but why ?? After a day of this, it finally stalled ...
I took the timing belt cover off and it seems to me that the timing belt tensioner wasn't tight enough. I removed the cam sprocket and the tensioner for a closer inspection. The tensioner had all of it's tabs bent !!! I assume it wasn't installed properly by the last person who replaced the timing belt approx. 20,000 back. It was just sitting there holding the belt but never really working as it should.... probably a fluke that the belt stayed in place for the last 20,000kms. I suspect what happened the other day is that the other sprockets skipped a notch or two on the belt...
With a new tensioner in hand, I've attempted twice to line things up, so far with no long term success. I can get things lined up, but come up with a few "problems":
1)
In this picture
(http://www.gaitedridge.com/pump.jpg)
you'll notice that I have the belt positioned on the crank and I'm pulling on it to make it snug going to the IP sprocket but the the belt and sprocket notches don't line up. So far I've settled with not really pulling on the belt allowing it to fit the sprocket, but I think it's wrong. I believe that I should loosen the bolts maked by the "A" arrow and allow the sprocket to adjust to the belt being snug. Once everthing is in place ..crank is TDC, cam lock plate is in, tensioner tight and IP lock pin is in then I should re-tighten the three bolts on the IP sprocket. The sources of documentation that I've found so far does not mention anything about this. So far I've hesitated to loosen this sprocket because regardless of the tensioner working or not, the alignment of the IP pump sprocket in relation to the other sprockets and crank shaft should remain good.. unless it wasn't done correctly before.. but then, it shouldn't have been running either ??? Hmmm.. it appeared to run fine before ?? I suppose the pump timing might have been off before but I'm too ignorant to know better?? :oops: The engine seemed to start fine before..
Also in the picture below, you'll notice that my IP Sprocket isn't at all like what you find in ANY documentation !!! All docs that I've found so far, show pictures of a sprocket with round holes and a large pin to hold it in proper timing position .... this sprocket remains a mystery. Apparently it's from a newer engine. Took me a while to figure out how to find the proper timing position. I'm using a drill bit to hold it in place..
2) The two times that I've attempted to set the timing, I noticed that the car almost stated first turn, but it seems to quickly go out of whack (timing wise ) almost immediately after a turn or so of the engine... It seems that the belt loosens up and doesn't line up any more ??
I think the first problem that contributes to this is ... the tensioner documention that I've been able to find to date seems to indicate that you turn your wrench to the right to tension the belt...or to line up the marks. This has puzzled me because I have to turn left to get it to tension?? So far I'v been putting the tensioner on the bolt and letting it drop to the position. It sits fine with locking bar set in the back cover/housing notch and all but this forces me to turn the handle left and not right to line up the marks.. Last night I noticed that if I turn the tensioner adjuster to the top (prior to installing the belt), I will have to turn the wrench to the right to provide tension or to line up the marks. Hmmm does this make a difference? It appears that the tensioner would end up being closer to the sprocket as well..
Right now, I'm sitting here with my coffee, home made wrenches.. pondering my next move.... But I hope didn't damage my valves/pistons !! Oops did I forget to mention stress !!
I've managed to make some crude but functional homemade wrenches for this job, but if someone can recommend a tool supplier that has reasonable prices, I would appreciated it.. Someday, I'd like to buy the proper tools...
Good advice welcomed.. I'm here for the long haul....
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I have a TSB on the procedure for timing engines equipped with the new style pulley. PM me your email address and I'll send it to you.
The short version is:
Loosen the 3 bolts in the pump pulley (DO NOT use the pin to hold the pulley in place while loosening the bolts or you will break the pump housing, use a counterhold tool of some kind)
Loosen the camshaft pulley (DO NOT use the cam locking tool to hold the cam or you will break the camshaft, again use a counterhold tool.)
Knock the cam loose on the taper with a drift through the hole in the timing belt cover
Lock the pump sprocket hub in place with a 6mm pin
Remove the valve cover and lock the camshaft with the cam lock tool
Make sure the crank is at TDC
Install the belt starting with the crank and working around to the cam. try to get the pump pulley somewhat centred in the adjustment slots.
Install the tensioner. Make sure the tab is not bent and engages properly with the slot in the timing belt cover. Tension the belt by turning the tensioner to the right until the raised mark lines up with the slot.
LIGHTLY tighten the cam and pump pulley bolts with the locking tools in place then remove them and, using the counterhold tool tighten the cam bolt to 33ft/lbs and the 3 pump bolts to 18ft/lbs
Turn the engine over at least 2 revolutions using a wrench to check for interference.
Replace the covers and enjoy. With the new style pump pulley, the timing is accurate enough that adjustment using a dial guage is not neccesary.
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March 25,2005,
Today I installed a new pulley on the crank. Not too difficult I thought. I checked the timing a few times and hope that it's in place and proper. The engine starts good enough however, it doesn't sound good or at least not the same as before. The engine sounds a bit like a sewing machine indicating to me that there may be one or more bent valves. Of course, it's possible that I have the timing slightly out. I'm not certain but, I think that even if the timing was slightly out, I don't think I would hear it. I assume there would be a performance hit but not a clicking sound from the valves... Hmm ..maybe I'm wrong ?? The clicking isn''t always obvious but if you listen good enough you can hear it...especially if I rev the engine a bit. As the rpms fluctuate, the clicking sound comes and goes. The other thing I noticed is that it sounds like there is an exhaust-like noise coming from the air breather hose/tube. Sounds like it's missing.. Although it's a diesel, and there are no spark plugs, it sounds like it mis-fires, rough running? Once again, all speculation on my part but, I assume that this may be indicative of a valve not sealing properly allowing cylinder pressure to leak thru the intake valve??
Does any of this make sense?
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Sorry I didn't get back to you on your last email, been away and them forgot about it... The sounds you are hearing make perfect sense. My guess is there are one or more bent valves causing low compression and misfiring. The clicking is usually the result of crushed hydraulic lifters. When a valve makes contact with the piston the piston drives the stem up and punches a neat round hole in the hydraulic piston of the lifter. After this the lifter will not pump up and you hear the clicking noise. The lifters and valves are not terribly expensive but I would recommend having the crank properly fixed while you're at it. It would be a shame to fix the head and have the pulley come loose again.
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Hey QuickTD ever feel like taking a trip to a one horse town to collaborate on a engiine overhaul <GRIN>.
Ok, I hear you... guess I'll need to pick up more tools !!! Not sure what I need to buy for a head /valve job. I have to study that a bit. I went to pick the crank pulley at the VW dealer and I wasn't impressed. I felt like I was in their way. . . like I was interupting them !! ahhh , I won't get into customer service or lack of !!
About the crank though... I didn't think that the key way was too bad at all. Enough so that I purchased a replacement pulley and installed it. If I understood you correctly, when you re-key cranks like these, you re-key them to fit a TDI pulley which has a different keyway (a better design I assume). Considering it's already purchased and installed and the key was still pretty nice, I think I'll leave the crank. Of course at time of purchase, I was hopeful that the valves would be ok.. If I was to start over well... maybe I would have followed you're crank advice.. ( Might have to sooner than I think..) :-) I also figure that it makes sense to do the head/valves leaving the engine in place.. makes sense right ?
QuickTD, I get the feeling that you would replace all of the lifters and valves ? what else is there valve guides ? Dumb question for you since you're a machinist but, would you recommend that I bring the head to a machine shop ( one that repairs heads) and have them inspect the head for unknown issues like warping, cracks etc.... ?
I need to be coin smart as I proceed.
Have a good evening.. CTV news on next..
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Hi Guys,
Can someone tell me which socket I need to remove the head bolts on a 1.9 TD ? They look like Torx type bolt heads but ... way more then the usual number of points ??
Is this another VW special tool ?
Have a n ice evening.
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They are 12 point (triple square) bolts. If you need cheap tools quickly they are available at Canadian Tire as a set of 4 under the Lisle brand name.
Steve
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Yeah, they're 12mm triple square.
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Hi Everyone,
First, srivett & dieselweasel thanks for your reply,you are correct, 12 point triple square. I had never heard of such a beast and it was a little hard to find as not too many people in the tool business knew what a triple square tool was.. LOL.. but I did find one @ $8.50.
Ok here's a picture of the original problem..... You'll notice the key missing from the old pulley..
(http://www.gaitedridge.com/25-mars-057a.jpg)
QuickTD you have been correct with everthing to date.. I found one or more lifters hammered by the valve. The image shows how the center was punctured by the valve stem.
(http://www.gaitedridge.com/29-mars-002a.jpg)
Last weekend, my sons & I took the head off and found a couple of damaged lifters. ... Just like QuickTD predicted.. Not sure if I really needed to but.... I decided to bring the head to a machine shop. I'm anxious to see what they (machine shop ) we call back with.
I'll post the results...
I'm wondering.... should I replace the head bolts or reuse the old ?
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the head bolts MUST be replaced
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You MUST replace the bolts if they have been removed. They are permanently stretched when they are installed. They are pretty cheap anyway. Most aftermarket suppliers sell them for $2-3CDN each. Try to avoid the dealer for this stuff, it'll only sour your opinion of VW's. Make sure you use the same thickness of head gasket when putting it back together.
Don't let the machine shop tell you the head is buggered beacause of the cracks. They all crack between the valve seats, it's nothing to worry about. I've seen chevy small block types throw away heads because of this... The guides are likely OK but you may need a couple of valves and of course, the lifters.
If the keyway was tight in the crank it might be OK... You are correct, if I repaired it I would weld up the crank end and use a TDI pulley. The TDI pulley is stronger. It is also far easier to machine the crank for the TDI pulley than it is to machine it to accept the stock pulley again.
Another thing that helps with "crank pulley syndrome" is a one way clutch pulley on the alternator. This is another TDI part. It prevents the inertia of the alternator from backdriving the crank when the crank slows down. This prevents torque reversals on the crank/crank pulley interface and presumably slows the wear on the key. It also stops the belt tensioner from jumping around, which is wothwhile on its own. The pulley is a bit spendy at $110CDN from an aftermarket supplier but worth it IMO.
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Yes I will replace the bolts.
I'm still waiting for the call from the machine shop. I'm also waiting for two foals.. Hmmm which is more stressful, waiting for the machine shop to call or the foals... LOL...
Further to the crank pulley, I have a fair level of confidence that the keyway is in fairly decent condition otherwise I would remove it and probably have it repaired as QuickTD suggested.. At this point, my thinking is get her back together with the repaired lifters/head etc... Then I will look into finding a clutch type alternator pulley. Afterwards, I have yet to find the recommended maintenance schedule but I suspect I will perhaps be replacing the crank pulley at the same time as the belt..
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Yes I will replace the bolts.
I'm still waiting for the call from the machine shop. I'm also waiting for two foals.. Hmmm which is more stressful, waiting for the machine shop to call or the foals... LOL...
If it's anything like my place, dealing with my WIFE while she's waiting for the foals is the problem! :lol: We're all done for the year already though. :P
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Hey Norm,
I got the same problem like you had, with my '94 Golf!
I don't know what to do, to fix the head cylinder at the mechanic (but the labour is too high for my pocket) or to do it by myself. In the last case maybe could be easier if I'll find another head cylinder and prepare it properly at machine shop. The thing is they say in the VW manual, special for diesels, that the head cylinder can't be machined!?
Did you fix yours? I'd like to know how engine works.
How much cost you to rebuild the head at the machine shop?
Did you replace the head gasket with the metalic one(upgraded)?
All the best,
Ciprian :P
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Ciprian,
I had a call from the machine shop late Friday but didn't get a full estimate. I expect to have my head ready late Monday/Tuesday. I had three bad lifters/valve however I'm changing all lifters. I'll be glad to give you a total $$$ after... As far as doing the work yourself, well... I don't have a choice, single income, homeschooling family. It sure make a GREAT project to teach your young boys (my hdaughter has no interest..).
If you get stuck, the guys/gals on this list provide great help. Incredible to have this community.
So far my only regret in having to fix this car is that I'm not happy in having to fix the engine before the first car payment.. :x Having said that, I'm still happy I bought the little diesel....probably will get another for my wife.
have a good evening...
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...thanks Norm, probably I'll fix by myself! :roll:
So, we'll keep in touch with your news next week,
Have a good weekend.
Ciprian :P
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Hey Guys I'm back !!
Picked up the head tonight.... I''ve been inspecting it closely.... just to see and learn since I'm waiting for my manual to arrive.
As I wait for my manual, I have a couple of questions..
1) What the best way to test my glow plugs ? and... How tight do they need to be.. ?
2) How about the injectors, is there anything to do to them before re-installing them back on the head? and again, how tight do they need to be installed?
3) I assume it's a heat sensor screwed into the end of the head, what should I use to seal the little bugger ?? Not teflon tape but ... some kind of gasket glue ? I also noticed that the gasket for the exhaust connector pipe off the turbo had two cooper type gaskets with silicone gasket (orange stuff). probably best to go pickup a new gasket...but is it one of those hard to seal gaskets? Just wondering why two gaskets and silicone...
Lastly, I need to get a tool to measure 90 degrees etc.. when I tighten the head bolts, I need to turn them 90 degrees ( in two steps). I was wondering where have you guy been pickup this type of tool ?
LOL.. Does it show that I've out of the garage businsess for 22 years !! wow time flies.
thanks..
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1) What the best way to test my glow plugs ? and... How tight do they need to be.. ?
You can test glow plugs with a continuity tester or an ohmeter. They should be very close to a short circuit (less than 1ohm) . If they have high resistance or open circuit they are defective. For a real sure thing hook up a battery to the glow plug in question. Ground the body and hook + to the terminal. It should glow red in a couple seconds, use caution to avoid severe burns. :D. Use copper based anti sieze on the glow plugs and tighten to 18ft/lbs.
2) How about the injectors, is there anything to do to them before re-installing them back on the head? and again, how tight do they need to be installed?
You should get new heat shields for the injectors and use copper based anti seize on the threads. Tighten to 51ft/lbs
3) I assume it's a heat sensor screwed into the end of the head, what should I use to seal the little bugger ?? Not teflon tape but ... some kind of gasket glue ? I also noticed that the gasket for the exhaust connector pipe off the turbo had two cooper type gaskets with silicone gasket (orange stuff). probably best to go pickup a new gasket...but is it one of those hard to seal gaskets? Just wondering why two gaskets and silicone...
That is the oil pressure sensor in the end of the head. It does not require any sealant, it uses a soft aluminum crush washer. They can usually be reused. Tighten to 18ft/lbs. (If you want to pi$$ me off, apply teflon tape to banjo bolts, flare fittings and joints that use o-rings or crush washers... :x )
I would replace the turbo gasket, it makes a really annoying squeal when it leaks...
Lastly, I need to get a tool to measure 90 degrees etc.. when I tighten the head bolts, I need to turn them 90 degrees ( in two steps). I was wondering where have you guy been pickup this type of tool ?
I always thought 90º was just a quarter turn :D . My well calibrated eyeball and a paint marker has served me thus far. I do not own this tool of which you speak...
If your eyeball was not calibrated during your last ISO quality assurance audit and its accuracy is somewhat questionable, you can purchase the proper tool at princess auto....
I would still recommend the paint marker. After the bolts have all been torqued to the second stage (44ft/lbs), mark each bolt head at the same angle, that way when you move on to the angle torquing sequence you can verify the angle of each bolt at a glance. Very handy if the wife calls you for dinner or the phone rings during the process...
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Lastly, I need to get a tool to measure 90 degrees etc.. when I tighten the head bolts, I need to turn them 90 degrees ( in two steps). I was wondering where have you guy been pickup this type of tool ?
LOL: 90 degrees is 1/4 of a circle (a circle is 360 degrees). So to turn the bolt 90 degrees you would turn it from 12:00 to 3:00.
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Too funny... :lol: I use the same tools as you guys .. When I had to torque the crank pulley I made a mark and told my son to make sure to tell me when the marks line up... ( I can't remember if it was 1/4 or 1/2 a turn.) but I figured ...oh these guys probably wouldn't be too impressed to hear that I was using the tools god gave me. :lol: rather than buying the proper tool.
QuickTD, I 'll check the box for that aluminum washer.. It was still on the head when I brought it in to have the valves replaced. They removed it and threw it n a box with the rest of the bolts ( manifold etc..) Maybe there's a new aluminum washer in the gasket set..
Thanks..
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I found a angle torque tool at Princess Auto on sale ( 46% off I think) for approx. $7.50.
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I found a angle torque tool at Princess Auto on sale ( 46% off I think) for approx. $7.50.
Hey Norm, so much cost you (totaly) to rebuild your head cylinder :?:
All the best, :P
Cip.
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Ok prices..
- Timinig Belt Tensioner ............................................. 109.00 incl. tax
- Crank Pulley, new crank bolt, 4 bolts for balancer......close to 100.00?
- labour to have head checked/cleaned, install 3 new valves, re-install 8 new lifters, etc.. (166.00 labour only)
- 8 lifters, 3 valves, new head gasket, gasket set for rest of assembly..
Total with parts, labour & taxes 501.00
Orderred a bentley Service Manual for 48.00 (member @ Chapter.ca).
So let's see that adds up to roughly 760.00 plus approx. 50.00 in misc tools I needed to pick up.
I still need one glow plug, a new turbo gasket, and a few tools like a special socket ?? . I have yet to figure out what the best tool would be for tightening down injectors.
I wanted to ask the local VW dealer how much for a job lke this but... I feel like I'm in their way when I go there.. So I haven't asked. I know they wanted 99.00 for the bentley manual.
I have a really busy weekend lined up so I'm not sure if I'll have it put back together this weekend. With a little luck, I'll have the rest of the parts and manual tomorrow and I can put her back together in the night .
:shock:
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...thanks Norm, and have a good luck in putting her together!!!
All the best,
Cip
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Well guys, it's all done.. She purrs like a kitten !!!!!!!!
My sons and I had a great time putting this back together.. I have just a couple of items to finish up.. I need a new valve on the valve cover .. Don't know exactly what it's called but I'm hoping to find one less expensive than what the dealer wants $69.00 !!!
With the help from this forum, I was able to analyse and repair my VW Thanks.. the car runs great !!
QuickTD, many thanks for all of your advice..
Also, I wish to express a special appreciation to my brother Onil for the tools he fabricated for me. I asked him to make me a tool to hold the crank, and a couple of special sockets to tighten my Fuel injectors.
Regards
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Hey Norm,
That valve what you talking about is called: "crankcase breather regulator valve"!
I have to do the same thing with my head cylinder, the only thing I'm scared if I'll be able to put all back together, without mistakes!
All the best,
Ciprian :wink:
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Hey Norm,
That valve what you talking about is called: "crankcase breather regulator valve"!
What exactly does that breather valve do. How does it work and how do you know if yours is bad? Mine flows air in either direction. The Bentley has no reference as to how to inspect it.
Thanks
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Hey Norm,
That valve what you talking about is called: "crankcase breather regulator valve"!
What exactly does that breather valve do. How does it work and how do you know if yours is bad? Mine flows air in either direction. The Bentley has no reference as to how to inspect it.
Thanks
The man (Norm) asked how's called the thing...I gave him the proper answer!
What's mean "breather" for you?! Has the same function like your lung :lol:
If is blocked than must change it!
Mine is fine, I said I have the same problem like Norm had!
All the best! :P
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Thanks for the proper name !!
The breather valve on my jetta is broken because I broke it... I broke it by twisting it too hard when attempting to pull it off the valve cover. That's how I know mine is broken and will remain until I can find one reasonably priced.
Cipo28,
I also had reservations about being able to put it back together myself but truthfully, it wasn''t too hard. I did it with my two sons (10 & 12 yr old) and would I do it again ? In a flash. No doubt there are still a few things that I don't understand about my car. If resources become available, I'd like to find myself an old wrecked jetta just so that I can take it apart and study things like the fuel system.
I do however want to warn you about some of the difficulties I had when fixing my Jetta.. . First, I needed to make a tool to hold the crank. This allowed me to torq the crank bolt properly.
Secondly, I needed to make a tool to torq down the injectors. Actually made two.. I first made a deeper 27mm socket and it worked okay except that it didn't fit once the head was on the car.. I then made an offset deep 27mm socket. This allows me to tighten the injector after the head is installed. To give credit where credit is due, my brother welded all of these tools..
The head itself I brought to a engine rebuilding shop to ensure the head was properly measured/analyzed for warping etc... They found three bent valves and three bad lifters.. i replaced the thrre valves but asked that they replace all of the lifters.. smart choices ..maybe maybe not..
good luck !!
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try www.altrom.ca for more reasonably priced German parts. You'll have to check their dealer locator for somebody close to you.
Steve