VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: BejamminR on December 12, 2007, 09:41:41 am
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All right, I've promised a few people some videos and pictures of the shop so that they could see more clearly what exactly is involved in the testing / calibration of a diesel fuel pump, or so that they can see what we do differently at Performance Diesel Injection versus some of the other pump rebuilders.
We have just been working on TedV's (http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7200) 1.6TD pump, and I've recorded some vids for everyone to see what it is we're DOING when we say that we're testing / calibrating a fuel pump. Before I do that, here are a few images of the shop and test bench.
A shot of the test bench we are using for these fuel pumps.
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e349/BejamminR/IMGP0073.jpg)
Giles next to the test bench - I think he believed I was going to do a video, as he appears to be saying something. :lol:
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e349/BejamminR/IMGP0077.jpg)
TedV's 1.6TD pump, fully modified, mounted up and ready for testing.
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e349/BejamminR/IMGP0075.jpg)
If you want to see the tests, I've uploaded 4 videos to YouTube; here are the links. These are unscripted, so try not to mind if we don't sound like actors, or if Giles says "variable infinitely drive with planetary gears" instead of "infinitely variable" or something. 8)
We tried not to make them too "marketing", because we hate being 'sold' stuff too, but we're proud of what we do here, and we have as much fun with it as you do. Hope you guys like these, let me know if you have any questions!
Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKG_0pbzkrw): Quick tour of the test bench and associated equipment.
Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo8_IlJe700): Testing the "no-boost" fuelling on TedV's pump. Stock or just above stock fuelling at low RPM's with no boost... no smoke.k
Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxJqIRQD9SU): Testing the "full-boost" fuelling on TedV's pump. 20PSI of boost supplied, huge fuelling increase (~140% ABOVE stock), completely burnable with minimal smoke.
Part 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOTjdRvGdsI): We decide to see just how high we can rev this pump without starting to seriously cut out fuel. Turns out ~6500eRPM (Engine RPM) is definitely the maximum here. :wink:
Enjoy!
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Very cool :)
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It all looks so familiar 8)
Must remember to call Giles
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That what i'm talk'n about!
Finally, the answer to the question:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9975&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
And see, no proprietary information was devulged. No secrits revealed, and Giles family still gets to eat.
Great vids, nice clean shop. Very Professional!
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Thanks, Saurkraut. Glad you like it!
There will be more pictures and video to follow - whenever I either have time to snap and upload stuff, or else whenever I get bored. If people want to see certain things in particular, just let me know and I'll see what I can do. Provided it doesn't give away sensitive information or anything, we're happy to let people see whatever we can, whether in person or through this kind of medium.
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this is awesome... hopefully now everyone understands why the price may seem steep. you get what you pay for, but this is really a great deal!
thanks for sharing. i hope that gets Giles some extra business as there are tons of people on youtube with diesels! :)
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Excellent! Thanks for sharing. It's further confirmation that I made the right choice to have Giles build the pump on my Eco. Though I haven't run a timed zero to 60 mph on both cars, I think the Eco is faster than my stock '98 TDI. :D
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its a beautiful thing those pumps. I cant wait to send mine in :D
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It's great to see the man and Giles behind the magic! iv'e always wondered how that was done? is Giles gonna train more apprentices so his lost art and knowledge don't go to the grave with him? also what can i use to make my pump look new like TedV's pump does that wont hurt it? i hope thats not a trade secrete that you can't share with me either? thanks for the vids. and keep up the world renoun work
thanks Duane
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Ok, I going to be the guy to ask the dumb question....
Does every pump that gets sent to your shop for a rebuild get the same treatment (flow tested etc.) even for simple rebuilds/modifications?
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Absolutely yes.
There is absolutely not an exception at our shop. [EDIT]I was a bit dramatic in my answer as far as the testing. When putting the pump on the test bench, it's not really because of a concern that anything will go wrong with the pump. If it's built right, it's not going to explode. The purpose for putting it on the test bench is just calibration, to ensure that the pump IS in the correct flow range according to the manufacturer test plan. [/EDIT]
Hope that answers the question, and there was nothing dumb about it at all. The only difference with a "simple" rebuild or seal replace or whatever is that we'll only check to verify that it works all the way through the range (as specified by the test plan) and that it is in spec for fuel delivery, or between X and Y acceptable "stock" flow range. With a custom pump, we will do that flow-test, and then Giles will continue to make modifications to maximize the pump up to the upper end of the range specified by Bosch's test plan for any given RPM and boost level, allowing you to maximize your potential fuelling without raising every fuel level throughout the range.
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Thanks, you did answer my question.
So here's another one.
As you can see in my sig my 1.6td isn't exactly a conventional use for the vw diesel.
My plans aren't for auto cross, hot rodding etc.
My motor does need a rebuild. (as well as the injection pump as it's leaking fuel)
In the samurai application the rpm's will be higher than stock (around 3500 rpm@110Kmh depending on tire size.
My goal is reliability out of the motor, fuel economy, low end torque and well, as an after thought, performance.
What will a Giles pump give me that any old regular pump won't?
What can you do for me that other shops doing a simple rebuild can't? (a private message or email to [email protected] would be good if you feel I am hijacking this thread...)
I realise you have no control over most of the motor reliability but how the pump is set up can affect the rest of the motor....
It's not often one has the ability to communicate directly like this to a supplier. Thank you for the opportunity and the insight to your operation.
Jarl
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Westcoaster - not a hijack at all, this is exactly what the thread is for, to give a bit of an insight into the "black box" that Performance Diesel Injection / Giles' processes seem to have become. Giles would like to be more in touch with his customers - especially with us, since the performance side of things is his baby - but he's super busy most of the time, and I type a lot faster than he does :lol:.
As far as your particular application, it sounds like a sweet ride. My brother would absolutely love a system like that - actually, it's just about the only way I could ever convince him to drive anything German. :wink:
My understanding and experience is that our engines don't prefer to rev super fast; conventional wisdom is that the slower a diesel engine runs (all other things being equal) the longer it lasts. There are of course provisios and stuff, I'm not trying to start an argument on that point, since there are plenty of people with very long-lived AAZ's that run way higher than 3,500RPM every day of the week.
So that's one point with regard to reliability. As far as what we can give you that another shop can't with a regular rebuild? First, you saw the videos. Basically, we are just more meticulous than many (We're of the opinion that "most" or "all" is a fair word, but that may be opinion) other pump builders. Rather than just replacing damaged components, Giles examines the entire pump, replacing components which WILL be damaged soon, components which can't handle the stress we/you are going to put on it, components which can be swapped out but don't strictly have to, etc. He uses a combination of OEM components and custom-fabricated bits in order to get the job done to his specifications, and he regularly tears down the pump multiple times in order to fine-tune. That's the part you don't see in the video, Giles testing the pump, writing down the numbers for specific RPM's, bringing it back to his workbench, and stripping it down again to make further adjustments in order to maximize the fuel curve all through the range which your pump is going to see on your engine.
Short answer:
- We can give you more fuel, where you NEED it, rather than just "more fuel across the board".
- We can give you 30-40% (or more) useable horsepower
- We can give you better fuel efficiency (Amount varies with pump, there's only so much we can do to tweak, and we can't be accountable for the weight of your foot 8) )
- We can give you a higher and wider useable engine/pump speed range
So yes, 3500RPM is quite reasonably possible, at a nominal level of reliability. Everything is a tradeoff, of course - if you're going for complete reliability, an overbuilt totally-stock setup might offer better engine longevity than any performance system, one can never be sure. But as far as the sweet spot in terms of high performance, high reliability, and best bang for your buck... well, that's what we can offer you that a lot of shops can't. They might anyway, but unless they've got the experience, track record, and customer list to back it up, I would remain highly skeptical.
Also, I apologize in advance if any of my after-hours posts wind up with more errors than usual or anything, I'm trying to make some dinner and stuff while I hammer these out.
At any rate, does that answer your question?
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haha i like that coat, like a doctor. i bet its nice for working on cars with though. nice shop nice seeing your equipment.
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Wow, the pump looks nothing like the hunk of junk I shipped up there. It cleaned up nice. It looked and smelled like it sat around for a while, 1.6TD parts aren’t that common around the hills here. Now if the rest of the build goes this smooth. Oh yeah, it’s not. Hope the customs folks don’t decide to “lose” the pump on one of their cars.
Fuel cuts out at 6500rpm, hmmm… when do the valves float and hit pistons on a 1.6TD?
Cool, they made me famous. Reputation of Giles philosophy is why I sent the pump there, this thread is confirming it, meticulous attention to detail. I can’t wait to get the ole Scirocco driving.
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Thanks for the amazing insight into the intricateness of these pumps. Makes me want to take mine apart again just for fun :lol:
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All right, I've promised a few people some videos and pictures of the shop so that they could see more clearly what exactly is involved in the testing / calibration of a diesel fuel pump, or so that they can see what we do differently at Performance Diesel Injection versus some of the other pump rebuilders.
We have just been working on TedV's (http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7200) 1.6TD pump, and I've recorded some vids for everyone to see what it is we're DOING when we say that we're testing / calibrating a fuel pump. Before I do that, here are a few images of the shop and test bench.
A shot of the test bench we are using for these fuel pumps.
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e349/BejamminR/IMGP0073.jpg)
Giles next to the test bench - I think he believed I was going to do a video, as he appears to be saying something. :lol:
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e349/BejamminR/IMGP0077.jpg)
TedV's 1.6TD pump, fully modified, mounted up and ready for testing.
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e349/BejamminR/IMGP0075.jpg)
If you want to see the tests, I've uploaded 4 videos to YouTube; here are the links. These are unscripted, so try not to mind if we don't sound like actors, or if Giles says "variable infinitely drive with planetary gears" instead of "infinitely variable" or something. 8)
We tried not to make them too "marketing", because we hate being 'sold' stuff too, but we're proud of what we do here, and we have as much fun with it as you do. Hope you guys like these, let me know if you have any questions!
Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKG_0pbzkrw): Quick tour of the test bench and associated equipment.
Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo8_IlJe700): Testing the "no-boost" fuelling on TedV's pump. Stock or just above stock fuelling at low RPM's with no boost... no smoke.k
Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxJqIRQD9SU): Testing the "full-boost" fuelling on TedV's pump. 20PSI of boost supplied, huge fuelling increase (~140% ABOVE stock), completely burnable with minimal smoke.
Part 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOTjdRvGdsI): We decide to see just how high we can rev this pump without starting to seriously cut out fuel. Turns out ~6500eRPM (Engine RPM) is definitely the maximum here. :wink:
Enjoy!
Can't believe it took me this long...but was paroosing the IDI forums here tonight and found this. GREAT JOB guys...these are great vids and demonstrations of your modified pumps!!!
Joe
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Wow, the pump looks nothing like the hunk of junk I shipped up there.
I didn't say it! :wink: Yeah, I spent a pile of time sandblasting that thing. The rust turned the blasting sand from white to brown in one go. :lol:
And washing the internals with varsol and sandpaper? That was the work of most of the day sometime last week. (Waves his fist) Damn you, oxidation!
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At any rate, does that answer your question?
Yes you did.
Thank you for your time.
While I have a million more questions swirling around in the back of my mind, now is not the time to be asking them.
I'll be in touch once I tuck into the motor.
Thanks again,
Jarl
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Do you guy's keep records of the pump mod's for each pump you build? Percent of fuel over stock, etc...?
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Yes we do.
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<SNIP>
is Giles gonna train more apprentices so his lost art and knowledge don't go to the grave with him?
also what can i use to make my pump look new like TedV's pump does that wont hurt it?
i hope thats not a trade secrete that you can't share with me either? <SNIP>
Sorry I didn't see this earlier, Duane.
a) He sure is.
b) A sandblaster and blasting sand. There's no magic secret to getting the pumps looking that good - just me spending a long time working on them in the blast cabinet while Giles works on other stuff.
c) Definitely not a trade secret. Varsol will take off a lot of surface grime and stuff, but in order to get the last of the rust off and make the pump shiny and new-looking, a blaster/blast cabinet is the only thing I know of to do the job.
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That's what I did when I went for the interview, cleaned up a few pumps.
I wasn't sure if it was a trade secret so I was keeping is hush hush.
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Very nice.
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I wasn't sure if it was a trade secret so I was keeping is hush hush.
Nah, the trade secret is that you're supposed to keep the sand OUTSIDE of the pumps when you blast'em. :wink: Ssh, don't tell anybody, it might bring us more business.
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DOH! I was in meetings all day with my phone off, looks like I need to make a call in the morning. :wink: :D
Varsol cleans great, but kinda leaves your hands tingly when your glove gets a hole. I know when the top pump seals leak B20 on a 1Z TDI, then wash with simple green, that will get all the grim off, but won’t touch the oxidation on the steel pump head. Hey it had 245K miles on the original seals, thanks ULSD. Any trade secrets to keep a pump looking that good, but still make it easy to work on in the future if needed?
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For the setup that you do, do you use standard injectors set to standard TD pop preasures?
I was wondering how using larger nozzles like the ones for Merc 300TD, or pop preasures that are higher or lower would effect the calibration.
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There are no automotive injectors on the test bench. There are injection lines, connected to ISO 4010-spec injectors. So hooking up Mercedes injectors or whatever else is not an option on a test bench - automotive are nowhere near precise enough, and they may or may not have the right spray pattern to do the job (in an actual on-engine application, not limited to the test bench there).