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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: chasingrabbitsvw on December 08, 2007, 10:56:17 am
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I just got a timing gauge and Im trying to learn how to use it. Im following the instructions in the bently. I have the motor at TDC and I've screwed the gauge in, but Im not sure on reading it. I really dont know what Im doing with this thing and I could use some pointers. Im starting to pull the head to change the head gasket, but I want to make sure I can use the gauge to set the timing once Im done.
I got the gauge from GAP, here it is and here are some pics of my engine with the valve cover off. Its a 1.6na.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/njstecher/vortex%20posts/100_4090.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/njstecher/vortex%20posts/100_4092.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/njstecher/vortex%20posts/100_4087.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/njstecher/vortex%20posts/100_4086.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/njstecher/100_3951.jpg)
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I'll try and help you? screw the shaft in first of the gage! then slide the gage in the shaft watch the needel move on the gage! you want a preload on the gage at least 1.50mm of movement dont worry what it says on it you just need about that much needle movment! you will zero it out later! now once you have done that! remove the alignment pin from the pump and remove the cam lock plate! rotate the engine backwards till the needle on your gage stops moving! "zero" your gage out then rotate the engine back to where you had it at TDC look to see whee your needle says? adjust your pump towards or away from the block to get your required timing you want 0.95 to 1.00 would be fine with your N/A! I hope i help you let me know if i did? if you have any questions feel free to ask!
thanks Duane
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Couple of other things to watch for:
1) make sure your cold start handle is pushed all the way in before you start
2) start with your engine at exactly TDC for #1.
TDC means:
- both lobes of #1 are pointing up
- you have the cam locked with a locking plate
- the flywheel is pointing at exactly TDC using the inspection hole at the top of the tranny
(as an aside... the picture of your engine shows that it's *not* at TDC)
If you can't lock the cam *and* have the flywheel at exactly TDC then the cam timing is off... to adjust you loosen the big bolt on the cam sprocket so that it can rotate by itself with the cam locked.
After removing the cam lock its as Duane says:
- insert the gauge and give it a couple of mm of preload so that it will travel with the plunger
- rotate the engine backwards (counterclockwise) until the dial indicator stops moving... will be about 45 degrees or so... rotate a bit more just to convince yourself it really has stopped
- zero the gauge
- rotate the engine forwards (clockwise) to exactly TDC by watching the flywheel
- read the timing setting on the gauge. Most people go for something around 0.9mm for a non-turbo.
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How do you zero the gauge? Im having trouble with this step. if i unscew it, it comes out before it hits 1-mm.
The fly wheel is at TDC, so my cam timing is off then. Thanx for catching that. :wink:
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Vince really explains very well! but maybe if this will help give me a call and i can ask you some questions about your gage and we can work you through on how it works! the gage face rotates so you can zero it! but i need to know how your gage seperates from the shaft? mine has a little thumb screw that locks th gage on the shaft! and i don't see that on yours?
414-840-1395
thanks Duane
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I loosened the cam sprocket bolt and locked the cam shaft. I cant seem to turn the crank though, the cam sprocket dosent want to move free of the cam.
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I loosened the cam sprocket bolt and locked the cam shaft. I cant seem to turn the crank though, the cam sprocket dosent want to move free of the cam.
If you look at the top of the gauge there is a metal shaft that turns holding the gauge to the shaft. I bet if i loosen that some, the gauge itself will unscrew more to zero it out.
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see the thumb screw on the top 2o'clock of the gage? thats what you loosen so you can rotate the lense of the gage to zero it out!
the shaft and gage must seperate i think yours must twistlock? seperate the two! then screw the shaft into the pump then slide the gage into the shaft and preload it while everything is on TDC the long needle will make a complete revolution and a half and the little needle should be on 1! as soon as you learn how your gage works it will be easy! hope that helps?
thanks Duane
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that all makes sense. thank you. the cam sprocket still wont turn independently with the cam locked.
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that all makes sense. thank you. the cam sprocket still wont turn independently with the cam locked.
If the engine is at TDC and the cam locks perfectly then you can remove the cam lock and carry on with the procedure.
If not, you loosen the sprocket bolt a turn or so, loosen the sprocket with a puller or rubber hammer, and get the engine back to TDC. Then tighten the sprocket bolt. DON'T use the cam lock as a means to hold the camshaft in place while loosening or tightening the sprocket bolt... it can easily shatter. Channel lock pliers on the sides of a cam lobe work well, or some means of locking the pulley thru its holes.
Remove the cam lock, and carry on with the timing procedure.
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Ok, so now I have the timing mark on the flywheel at TDC and the cams lined up in the right position. i screwed the gauge in and set it to 2.5 mm. I turned the engine counter clockwise. I keep turning and the gauge does not stop until the crank wont turn anymore. What am I doing wrong?
So since the valve timing was off do you think I'll find some bent valves when I pull the head?
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/njstecher/vortex%20posts/100_4110.jpg)
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hey im having the same trouble with my rabbit timing. My question is which way is clock-wise and which is counter-clockwise? Away from me or towards me? And how the heck do you turn your engine? I just do it with a socket wrench on the the cam spocket bolt :oops:. By doing this I can't turn the engine away from me with out unscrewing the nut that holds the sprocket on!!
Also, how the heck do you rotate the pump? My manual tells me just to loosen three bolts! But don't you have to pretty much take off the injector lines as well?
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If the crank won't turn any more then something is wrong unless you mean it won't turn because of compression if you are turning it with a short ratchet.
You should be able to turn it completely over.
Ok, so now I have the timing mark on the flywheel at TDC and the cams lined up in the right position. i screwed the gauge in and set it to 2.5 mm. I turned the engine counter clockwise. I keep turning and the gauge does not stop until the crank wont turn anymore. What am I doing wrong?
So since the valve timing was off do you think I'll find some bent valves when I pull the head?
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Looking at the crank pulley. Turn it with a socket and ratchet or breaker bar.
Turn the CRANK sprocket, not the cam. The pump has 3 bolts on the front and one underneath on the back. You should loosen the injector lines a little, but you don't need to remove them.
hey im having the same trouble with my rabbit timing. My question is which way is clock-wise and which is counter-clockwise? Away from me or towards me? And how the heck do you turn your engine? I just do it with a socket wrench on the the cam spocket bolt :oops:. By doing this I can't turn the engine away from me with out unscrewing the nut that holds the sprocket on!!
Also, how the heck do you rotate the pump? My manual tells me just to loosen three bolts! But don't you have to pretty much take off the injector lines as well?
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My question is which way is clock-wise and which is counter-clockwise? quote]
just look at a clock. make note of which way the arm moves. that is where the term clockwise comes from. and counter is obviously the opposite. the orientation is always determined by the face of the bolt/nut being tightened/removed. so if you're facing the bolt/nut then clockwise is clockwise, but if you aren't (such as upside down) its the other way. its a little hard to explain, but i'll use the oil filter as an example. from the top its the opposite from clockwise... since the oil filter is hanging down.
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Looking at the crank pulley. Turn it with a socket and ratchet or breaker bar.
Turn the CRANK sprocket, not the cam. The pump has 3 bolts on the front and one underneath on the back. You should loosen the injector lines a little, but you don't need to remove them.
So if you are just turning the crank sprocket wouldn't you have to loosen the bolt that holds it on?
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Ok, so now I have the timing mark on the flywheel at TDC and the cams lined up in the right position. i screwed the gauge in and set it to 2.5 mm. I turned the engine counter clockwise. I keep turning and the gauge does not stop until the crank wont turn anymore. What am I doing wrong?
So since the valve timing was off do you think I'll find some bent valves when I pull the head?
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/njstecher/vortex%20posts/100_4110.jpg)
What do you mean by the crank sprocket "won't turn anymore"? If the cam is timed properly with the bottom end, then you should be able to completely rotate the crankshaft in reverse (counterclockwise) rotation as much as you like, although its not advised to keep doing so. Did you leave the cam plate locked in????
I think some people made this WAAAY more complicated than it really needs to be.
First off: it your car was running before, then there was NO NEED to discuss cam lock plates, TDC, etc. If your cam timing was out, you'd know by the CLUNK of the valves being bent when you actuated the starter. This is probably too much for a novice to digest when all they need to do is set the pump timing. While it is a good idea to check the mechanical engine timing, it's not really needed to do this part of the job, especially when the car was running fine at one point not too long ago.
I understand that you had some problems with this car before, but I doubt that they had anything to do with the valvetrain or bottom end. They appeared after replacing a leaking injector line, so I doubt that the problem was related to engine mechanics.
ENGINE TIMING:
Now, since the cam lock plate has been dragged into the discussion, and we don't know how much of this advice has been taken to heart, you may as well take the time now to do this all properly.
1) Turn the engine to TDC (the notch on the flywheel that's visible thru the trans inspection hole is up, and both cam lobes for cyl # 1 pointing up or away from the cam followers).
2) See if you can install the Injection Pump lock pin. If you do not have the correct tool, a deep socket with outer dimensions just large enough to fit thru the hole on the cam will do (I find a 10mm works well). It should lock the Injection Pump sprocket to the Injection Pump mounting bracket/motor mount bracket.
Be advised, the pump can be locked at TWO different positions: one at TDC on the pump, and one at 180 degrees off. There should be a notch on the BACK side (driver's side) of the injection pump sprocket. When the pump is at TDC, the notch should be pointing straight up, and should roughly line up with the reference mark on the mounting bracket (groove), and the reference mark on the pump casting (the raised spline on the centerline of the pump on the sprocket side of the pump).
If you cannot lock the Injection Pump sprocket with the bottom end set at TDC, then the pump is off a tooth or two. If you can lock the IP sprocket, but CANNOT see the timing mark on the back of the pump sprocket, then the pump is out 180 degrees (assuming the other timing marks are on).
But if you've never played with the timing belt, and the car was running before, then this should not be an issue. If it is off a tooth or two, you will need to reset the timing belt according to Bentley manual.
3) NOW, check the cam. With the bottom end at TDC, and the injection pump locked in it's correct position, look at the driver's end of the camshaft. The locking groove should be completely horizontal: parallel with the top edge of the head. If you would like to confirm it, then slip a cam lock plate into the groove. If you do not have the correct tool, a straight file will suffice.
If the cam groove is NOT horizontal (i.e. you cannot lock the cam), THEN AND ONLY THEN, will you need to adjust the cam sprocket. When the timing belt stretches the cam timing might be off a touch, but not enough to cause engine damage. If it is drastically off the mark, then you will need to adjust the camshaft sprocket.
IF you need to adjust the cam sprocket, this is the procedure.
Lock the camshaft with the cam plate or similar tool. Loosen the 19 mm cam bolt a few turns (yes, you can use the cam tool to hold the cam while you loosen the end bolt, so long as some idiot has not over-torqued it beyond specs).
With the bolt loosened a few turns, tap the back-side of the cam sprocket with a rubber hammer (DO NOT USE A REGULAR HAMMER). The cam sprocket should spin freely. Now, tighten the cam sprocket bolt just enough so that the sprocket spins, but is not flopping around.
Go back and check your timing marks. The camshaft and injection pump should be locked at TDC, and the flywheel should be at TDC. If not, put them in their correct locations.
4) So, once all the timing marks are lined up (flywheel at TDC, Injection pump locked, cam locked with plate), you can now “Lock in” the timing setup.
IF YOU LOOSENED the timing belt tensioner during any of this, you will need to reset the tension. So, with the flywheel at TDC, and the cam plate locked (cam sprocket loose enough to spin), REMOVE THE INJECTION PUMP LOCK PIN. Then, rotate the timing belt tensioner clockwise until you can twist the timing belt no more than 45 degrees at the point between the cam sprocket and the injection pump sprocket. Do not assume that tighter is better. I find that it’s best to give all of 45-50 degrees and then no more. Over tightening can cause intermediate shaft bearing failure, oil pressure loss, and then a blown motor (seen it happen).
Once the belt tension is set, confirm that the bottom end is still at TDC (should be no problems there). Then, tighten the CAM BOLT and remove the cam lock plate. At this point, you should go thru the following checklist:
1) cam sprocket bolt is tight, and properly torqued (45 nM).
2) timing belt tension is properly set (45-50 degrees of twist).
3) timing belt tensioner is torqued to proper specs (45 nM ).
4) Flywheel is at TDC
5) Injection pump at TDC
6) cam lock plate removed
7) injection pump lock pin removed.
If that is all done, then you can rotate the motor clockwise 2 turns by hand with some resistance (compression). If you feel really strong resistance, then you’ve done something wrong and need to recheck what you’ve done.
PUMP TIMING:
Ok. That's the engine timing. Now if all that checks out, you can turn to injection pump timing.
1) Make sure the cold-start knob (choke) is pushed all the way in on your dash.
2) Make sure that NONE OF THE LOCKING TOOLS ARE IN PLACE, and then rotate the flywheel to TDC.
3) Install the adapter (VW TOOL 2066) onto the dial indicator
4) Thread the adapter into the injection pump via the center hole on the driver's side of the injection pump (the 12 mm bolt hole), with the dial indicator inside of it, but DO NOT lock the dial indicator into the adapter.
5) With the adapter threaded completely into the injection pump, push the dial indicator into the adapter until the small dial (lower left dial graded 0-5)) reads at least "3".
6) Tighten the adapter onto the dial indicator so that it is locked in place with the small dial still reading at least 3 (3 mm of preload).
7) "Zero" the gauge by loosening the small knob on the indicator (top right at 2 O’clock). Then rotate the dial face so that the needle is pointing to zero. Lock the dial face by tightening the little knob on the top right of the dial indicator. (Some people may question zeroing the tool at this point, but it makes getting back to TDC alot easier if you miss the flat spot on the pump cam).
8:) Now, with NO engine parts locked (cam lock removed, IP lock removed), rotate the crankshaft counterclockwise with a hand tool (socket).
Rotate it SLOWLY. The needle on the dial should move counterclockwise.
The needle will rotate approximately 60-110% of a complete reverse revolution before it stops moving, despite the fact that you are still rotating the crank.
9) ONCE THE NEEDLE STOPS MOVING, you need to stop rotating the crank. If the needle stops moving, then starts up again, you will need to start all over. If you've rotated the crank a bit past the exact moment when the needle begins to stop, you're still ok to time the pump.
10) Once you've stopped rotating the crankshaft, and the needle has stopped moving, zero the dial indicator again (as you did in step 7 above).
11) Now, rotate the crankshaft pulley clockwise until the flywheel is at TDC.
The dial indicator should read about zero after making a complete revolution. This means that the timing is set to 1 mm according to Bentley. If it does not read 0, or you want to set the pump to a different setting, you will need to rotate the pump.
According to Bentley, your 1981 Jetta Diesel (assuming it has the original motor), should be set to .86 mm for standard setting, or .98 (1 mm) for improved performance (suggested if you have working AC).
12) If you want/need to adjust the pump timing as per Bentley specs/personal choice, then you will need to loosen the 4 bolts on the injection pump. There are 3 on the sprocket side of the pump and one on the lower right of the pump on the bottom.
To RETARD the timing (i.e. make the needle go counterclockwise), rotate the pump forward (away from the motor). To ADVANCE the timing, rotate the pump towards the engine. For minor adjustments, you should not need to loosen the injector lines. For large movement, you will need to loosen the injector lines.
13) Once you've achieved your desired timing setting, tighten all 4 bolts and double-check that the timing is still right. If it all checks out, then tighten the injector lines if you've loosened them. Remove the adapter and dial indicator. Reinstall the 12 mm bolt to the injection pump.
14) Make sure (again) that all locking tools have been removed. Rotate the motor 2 full turns again by hand, just to be certain that nothing is binding.
15) Reinstall the timing cover and inspection plug (flywheel).
16) Start your motor and go.
For those who do not have a dial indicator, or for the brave of heart, you can adjust the timing while the motor is running: with or without the dial indicator. I've done it before, and it's easier to find the sweet spot where the pump works best (i.e. the engine runs smoothest).
In order to do this, you'll need to have the car at operating temps, otherwise you'll advance the pump timing too much. After the car is at operating temp, you'll need to loosen all 4 IP bolts/nuts first, leaving one of them just snug (I usually leave the front one snug for easy access to loosen it at the correct moment). Then, start the motor with the choke lever pushed all the way in. Rotate the pump either way until you find (i.e hear) the optimum setting for idle/power/max RPM.
Be advised, if you've altered any of the original settings on your pump (i.e. max fuel screw, max RPM, idle, etc), you really shouldn't adjust your pump this way. The other settings will affect the engine's performance too much, and the timing can be way off, despite the fact that the car is running fine. Too much advance can do some damage in the long run.
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best post ever
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May I suggest you copy and past directly to the FAQ section before this post gets buried and lost somewhere. Very good write up.
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+1.
I printed it. It's awesome
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I could probably include some photos for a solid DIY. Not sure how that works, but I"m happy to do it
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I could probably include some photos for a solid DIY. Not sure how that works, but I"m happy to do it
i'll try to take pics of when i put my motor back together & time it. but pics with instructions would be invaluable :)
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Great post. thanx for the help. it seems that both the valve timing and the pump timing are off. This is the way I received the car in September. I am replacing the head gasket and want to make sure I can time everything before I pull it apart, so that I can get the timing right after its back together again.
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Im up to step 8 on the directions below. Problem is, when I rotate counter clockwise, my gauge stops after only 10% rotation. When I rotate back to TDC I get a reading of 4 mm. I have the injection pump fully retarded. Every thing is set to TDC; I have double checked. Why would my gauge stop so soon? what do I need to adjust?
8. Now, with NO engine parts locked (cam lock removed, IP lock removed), rotate the crankshaft counterclockwise with a hand tool (socket).
Rotate it SLOWLY. The needle on the dial should move counterclockwise.
The needle will rotate approximately 60-110% of a complete reverse revolution before it stops moving, despite the fact that you are still rotating the crank.
9) ONCE THE NEEDLE STOPS MOVING, you need to stop rotating the crank. If the needle stops moving, then starts up again, you will need to start all over. If you've rotated the crank a bit past the exact moment when the needle begins to stop, you're still ok to time the pump.
10) Once you've stopped rotating the crankshaft, and the needle has stopped moving, zero the dial indicator again (as you did in step 7 above).
11) Now, rotate the crankshaft pulley clockwise until the flywheel is at TDC.
The dial indicator should read about zero after making a complete revolution. This means that the timing is set to 1 mm according to Bentley. If it does not read 0, or you want to set the pump to a different setting, you will need to rotate the pump.
According to Bentley, your 1981 Jetta Diesel (assuming it has the original motor), should be set to .86 mm for standard setting, or .98 (1 mm) for improved performance (suggested if you have working AC).
12) If you want/need to adjust the pump timing as per Bentley specs/personal choice, then you will need to loosen the 4 bolts on the injection pump. There are 3 on the sprocket side of the pump and one on the lower right of the pump on the bottom.
To RETARD the timing (i.e. make the needle go counterclockwise), rotate the pump forward (away from the motor). To ADVANCE the timing, rotate the pump towards the engine. For minor adjustments, you should not need to loosen the injector lines. For large movement, you will need to loosen the injector lines.
13) Once you've achieved your desired timing setting, tighten all 4 bolts and double-check that the timing is still right. If it all checks out, then tighten the injector lines if you've loosened them. Remove the adapter and dial indicator. Reinstall the 12 mm bolt to the injection pump.
14) Make sure (again) that all locking tools have been removed. Rotate the motor 2 full turns again by hand, just to be certain that nothing is binding.
15) Reinstall the timing cover and inspection plug (flywheel).
16) Start your motor and go.
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Try pushing the gauge a little further into the IP.
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Here's another take on setting the static timing using a dial indicator... still a work in progress but perhaps the pictures will help you ??
http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=28
Comments welcomed... btw.
In terms of your specific issue...if you zeroed the gauge when it stopped moving as you rotated backwards (counterclockwise) AND you get a reading of 4mm after you rotated forwards (clockwise) to exactly TDC your pump is very much too ADVANCED.... sounds like you are aiming for a setting of 1.00mm... so you're 4X too advanced (assuming I'm interpreting your comments correctly ;-) )
So, either the pump is pushed too far towards the head OR you're one or more teeth off on the injection pump sprocket. 4mm sounds like a lot more than a rotation issue so I'd be inclined to be really really sure the timing belt timing is perfect before carrying on with the IP timing.
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Im up to step 8 on the directions below. Problem is, when I rotate counter clockwise, my gauge stops after only 10% rotation. When I rotate back to TDC I get a reading of 4 mm. I have the injection pump fully retarded. Every thing is set to TDC; I have double checked. Why would my gauge stop so soon? what do I need to adjust?
Yep. You may not have enough preload. Did the small needle on the dial indicato read at least '2'? If not, then you'll have to push the dial indicator into the adapter a bit more as jimfoo noted.
You don't have to rotate the crank very much: about 2-5% of a complete revolution. As you rotate, watch the needle on the gauge. It should go at least about 40mm of rotation. If not (and there's at least 2 mm of preload), then your pump is WAY out of time.
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ok, got the pump timed right now. The crank sprocket had jumped a tooth when we slid the timing belt on. I refitted it and re-timed everything, then tested for consistency. All appeared well.
Now:
When I try to turn the crank for a full revolution, it doesn't want to completely turn over at compression. I was really trying to apply some force too. It will not turn completely over. I even tried starting it at one point, but it would not. All tools are removed, the camshaft, flywheel and the pump are all at TDC. One thing I was looking for, but could not find was where the pistons are supposed to be when the flywheel is at TDC. I never played with the engine block or the flywheel, but maybe some thing was wrong there, I dont know.
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At the TDC mark on the flywheel pistons #1 and #4 are at the top of their travel (and #2 and #3 are at the bottom).
If it won't turn over by hand I'd advise against using the starter... that could bang things together much more forcefully.
If you are positive you found the correct TDC mark on the flywheel, AND you had the cam locked with both lobes of #1 pointed up, then the most likely possibility is that someone put your flywheel on wrong at some point.
The usual course of action in this case is to pull one of the injectors (#4 is probably the most convenient) and then using a long thin screwdriver or other metal implement as a marker confirm where TDC really is. Because something is jamming you'll probably have to remove the timing belt and then loosen all the cam caps to so that the camshaft lifts and allows all the valves to close so that they don't bump into the pistons as you rotate the flywheel.
Loosening the cam needs to be done in sequence: cap 2 and 4 all the way, and then caps 1,3, and 5 slowly and a bit at a time so that the cam rises equally and doesn't twist and warp.
With the cam lifted you might want to do a rotation of the flywheel right off the bat... in case the obstruction *isn't* valves hitting the piston.
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I believe this is where the pistons were at TDC:
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/njstecher/vortex%20posts/100_4127.jpg)[/img]
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...and that would be why you now have valves hitting pistons... cause that ain't TDC from the crank's perspective !!!
As I read back thru this thread you mention the crank "stopping" while you were rotating backwards to set the timing... it all makes sense now.
You'll need to find the real TDC and put a new mark on your flywheel... or pull the tranny and put the flywheel on correctly. The problem with the flywheel being on incorrectly is that a Previous Owner may have mashed the pins down to get it on wrong... meaning that it might not be straight etc...
Depends how deep you want to dig into this....
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Ok I pulled the 4th injector. I turned the crank clockwise and the metal stick Im using to check the piston went down. I turned until the crank stopped but the stick never went back up. So, I turned counter clock wise and the stick rose until it seemed to reach the top, but the last lobe of the camshaft on the drivers side was pointing completely down. At this point, can I take the timing belt off and turn the camshaft by the cam sprocket to TDC. Same with the IP, then check to see if the piston is at the top of its travel. If it is, then the cylinders are at TDC correct? I should then be able to reinstall the timing belt with everything lined up. I will then put a new mark on the flywheel. Does this sound ok?
I dont have a lot of time to open the tranny. I will probably get to it over the summer. I am a teacher so I will have lots of time to play with it later. Right now I need this thing to get to school. Ive been taking the train lately through some bad neighborhoods in the bronx. Its getting to be kinda a hassle.
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...and that would be why you now have valves hitting pistons... cause that ain't TDC from the crank's perspective !!!
As I read back thru this thread you mention the crank "stopping" while you were rotating backwards to set the timing... it all makes sense now.
You'll need to find the real TDC and put a new mark on your flywheel... or pull the tranny and put the flywheel on correctly. The problem with the flywheel being on incorrectly is that a Previous Owner may have mashed the pins down to get it on wrong... meaning that it might not be straight etc...
Depends how deep you want to dig into this....
Ouch. Yeah. That's not TDC, and Vince is right. Someone put the flywheel on wrong. I've seen it happen before. In fact, I've got a diesel motor in my garage that I bought from a j-yard cheap. It had great compression, so I bought it. I tried to crank it over in the yard (out of the car), so I put a trans and starter on to try to start it. It didn't want to start. So I checked the timing marks, and I coudn't find the flywheel mark. I freaked out. Then I thought to check the flywheel. Sure enough, someone had mangled one of the centering pins on the flywheel and managed to bolt it up about 40 degrees off the mark.
It's is possible that you've found some errant mark on the flywheel that looks like TDC. On a Rabbit/Jetta, it should be an 'O' with a notch above it. If not, then the flywheel if off the mark.
The only way to really solve the problem is to pull the trans and reset the flywheel. I guess you could try the screwdriver trick, but it would have to be quite thin. Perhaps use a straight piece of coat hanger.
Wow, that sucks. But, it's not the end of the world. I pray you didn't hit the starter and bend you valves. That would really suck.
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Ok, so I used a bbq skewer to feel when #4 piston fully up. But Im not close enough to TDC. When I tried to time the pump it was at 40 on the large dial when the pump was moved fully away from the motor. Shouldn't it be at around .98? I did not have time to play with it any more. I am getting closer, but I could not start it. It does turn now with out interference at least.
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Um. I'm a bit confused.
At this point you should have done the following:
1) Removed the camshaft in order to locate TDC on the bottom end. This way, you won't bend any valves when you rotate the crank with the timing belt removed.
2) Located TDC on the block by removing an injector, inserting an appropriate tool (skewer in your case), and MAKING a mark on the flywheel when the #1 or #4 piston is at the top of its motion.
3) Re-install the camshaft with the lobes for #1 up/away. Once the cam is installed, lock the camshaft, lock the IP, set the flywheel to your new TDC mark and install the timing belt as you normally would.
If you've done all tha above, then you can set the IP timing. Set your flywheel mark to TDC. Insert the timing gauge tool into the pump and rotate backwards to get the reading, after you've set at least 2-3 mm of preload and zeroed out the dial.
If you've done that, the reading you're getting is .40mm, and the pump is rotated all the way forward (i.e. away from the motor), then that is normal. In order to advance the timing (i.e. get closer to the specified .98mm), then you will have to rotate the pump towards the block.
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so I did all that, but I have one question. Technically, is TDC when the #1 & #4 piston first reach the top of there cycle or is it the point when they reach the top just before they start to drop again. There seems to be a little bit of time when they are up just before they start to drop again. I want to make sure I get it correct.
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I believe it is right in the middle of the two. In reality the piston only stops for an instant, but it would only be detectable with a dial indicator. If you take the average of where you detect no movement, that should be TDC.
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So I came upstate today and got everything lined up and in time. I have it set at .98mm. One problem with that is that the pump pushes up against one of the fuel lines. It was that way when I took ownership of the car though. I have put a heavy piece of rubber between the line and the pump to help ease vibrations. Another problem I faced tonight was a dead starter. It was trying to turn very weak. I could turn the crank by hand fairly easily though. There seems to be enough juice too, I tried jumping it to be sure. So Im going home again with out my car. I'll order a starter this week and hopefully have this thing on the road soon. That long train ride through BX is getting old fast. I have a 15minute drive to school or a 45 minute to an hour train ride through some rough neighborhoods. And its much cheaper to drive too!
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just skip one tooth on the I.P.sproket and that will get you away from the fuel lines! Joe(rabbit gtd guy) here on the forum has been selling a new diesel starter! he lives in new york!
thanks Duane
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I came home again this weekend to work on the car. I am very frustrated and dont know where to go from here. I put in a new starter and a new battery today. I Jumped the pump one tooth on the IP sprocket and rotated the pump away from the motor and timed it to .98 mm. I tried starting it and got kind of a funny sound. I dont know how to describe it, but it sounded like it was firing kinda funny, like a little off. The crank turns with nothing binding, but something sounds funny.
I've run into many problems along my way here, and this is what I have done since I stopped driving the car back after thanksgiving weekend:
I pulled the head and sent it out for a valve job and resurfacing.
I've changed:
Headgasket and all other associated gaskets
Timing belt
4 new injectors
cleaned and replaced fuel lines
vacuum pump lines
starter
battery
battery cables and grounds
Now, if you recall, when I took this thing apart every thing seemed to be out of time. The cam lobes were not set to TDC with either the IP sproket or the Flywheel. Now, I have determined that the Flywheel is on incorrectly by checking the position of the 4th piston. I made a new mark on the flywheel where the #4 piston was at the top of its travel. I set the cam to the new flywheel mark and checked that nothing was binding by turning the crank with the timing belt on. I set the sproket to TDC to match the new mark on the flywheel by locking the pump sproket in place with the marks lining up and the pin in place. I checked the pump timing and moved the pump all the way forward toward the engine. It came in contact with the fuel lines just as it did when I pulled the head. I jumped the IP sproket ahead one tooth and moved the pump away from the motor setting the timing to .98mm. Then I checked the timing for consistency.
This was my first time doing any of this. I am now totally stuck and frustrated as hell. I need help badly and don't know what to do.
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SHE RUNS!!! :beer: :beer: :beer:
Hollar... I went through and retimed everything today to be sure. That went smoothly. Still, I had some air in the lines. Cranked the hell out of it and gave it some gas... boom it starts up with a nice puff of smoke and ran well. I'm at about .98mm and I may advance it to about 1.08. Im happy though. Very happy.
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Good news! Finally.
Now that it runs, be sure your cooling system is in good working order (new thermostat, flush, new fan switch). You'd hate to have done all that work to have a *** fan switch ruin all your work. This time of year, it may not be a problem, but when the weather gets warmer...
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good deal! so was it as hard as it seemed?
and i would stay at .98mm or 1.00mm for N/A
a turbo you would want more advance but a turbo motor runs good a 1.00mm
i'm at 1.05mm with my turbo and i'm pushing 20psi
and my N/A i'm at .95mm
thanks Duane
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So I got it running, let it get warm and tightened the head bolts. While I had the valve cover off again I figured I would adjust the timing to bring the pump away from the fuel lines a little bit. I moved the IP sprocket ahead a tooth and retarded the pump to get a proper reading. Heres what I got right now, but it doesnt want to fully start again and stay running.
Heres the flywheel mark I made, as close to TDC as I could. I based this on the position of the crank sprocket, and peering through the #4 injector hole. I made a mark on the fly wheel at the exact moment on the flywheel where the piston finishes rising, and then again where the piston begins to fall. The distance on the flywheel is a few centimeters. I made my mark as accurate to the center of those to points as I possibly could.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/njstecher/vortex%20posts/100_4300.jpg)
Heres my cam locked at TDC
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/njstecher/vortex%20posts/100_4302.jpg)
Heres my pump in position where it would lock in, the IP sprocket notch, and the gauge reading at TDC:
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/njstecher/vortex%20posts/100_4305.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/njstecher/vortex%20posts/100_4303.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/njstecher/vortex%20posts/100_4306.jpg)
I have good compression, and Im getting fuel, but it does not want to fully come on and stay running.
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The challenge is that there's quite a "dead spot" at the top of the piston's travel... meaning that when you are near TDC you can rotate the crank a fair bit and the piston won't travel much. This makes an accurate TDC mark real difficult to determine, and if it's off your timing will be off, etc etc
I've never had to do it personally, but a much more accurate method (albeit more work!) is to use a feeler down the injector hole to come up to a known point in the piston's stroke... say an inch from TDC... and scribe a mark on the flywheel. You then rotate the engine backwards and come up against the feeler in the opposite direction, again scribing a mark on the flywheel.
TDC is now exactly in the middle of the two marks, and you've avoided the inaccuracies of the dead zone at the top of the piston's stroke.
Or, hillbilly tune it by ear, since it is running, just not the way you want.
Or, pull the flywheel.. ack !! Needed a new clutch anyways ??!! ;-)
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Yeah. Tune it by ear. You'll never have it perfect until you pull the flywheel. The best thing to do is get it so it's running AND at operating temps, then loosen the IP bolts just enough to rotate the pump and leave one snug. Then, while the car is idling, rotate the pump backwards (i.e. advance the timing) until it JUST starts to smooth out and runs really nice. As it stands now, if it's not running right, 90% of the time, it's too retarded.