VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: mtnbob on December 06, 2007, 12:32:19 pm
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Just wanted to let everyone know that I bit the bullet and bought a performance injection pump for my 86 Golf 1.6 N/A. It is running great! I Wish I could put it on a dyno to see what I gained over stock, but it is very noticeable. I am getting 40 mpg driving it in city and highway up to 75 mph easily. And I probably am going to change my injectors if I can find a deal on a set, since I am on my original ones at 110,000 miles. 8)
Robert
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My next move is sending a pump off to The Master.
What did it run you?
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Just wanted to let everyone know that I bit the bullet and bought a performance injection pump for my 86 Golf 1.6 N/A. It is running great! I Wish I could put it on a dyno to see what I gained over stock, but it is very noticeable. I am getting 40 mpg driving it in city and highway up to 75 mph easily. And I probably am going to change my injectors if I can find a deal on a set, since I am on my original ones at 110,000 miles. 8)
Robert
Never delt with them, but I had noticed Midwest Fuel Injection has complete injectors for $27.49 each. They also have the return line.
http://www.mwfi.com/dieselPage/VW_Diesel_Parts.htm
Oops, looking, it says non-turbo.
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What are these pumps retailing at? I'd love one for my GTD.
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Mine came in around 900USD when it was all said, done, and back to me. And I think it was definitely worth it.
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I'm going to go rob a bank right now.
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Mine is a N/A and the performance pump was $750 Plus $50 for shipping $250 core charge that he returned when I sent the core back. So $800 all told, the turbo pump is a little more ask Giles at 905-940-2266. Best $800 I've ever spent 8) Considering the cheapest N/A pump is $400 plus shipping from who knows who rebuilt it, and the Giles pump is $750 plus shipping for a modified high performance pump that tons of people are swearing by, it was an easy choice.
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I'm in it for 950 with shipping
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could you give a percentage increase in performance.
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Or a before/after dyno. Not that the OP could do it, but someone who's going to run a Giles pump could. Just make sure all the upgrades except for the pump are done before the "before" dyno.
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I would love to hear dyno figures for a 1.6 n/a with a giles performance pump. I think my car got 52 hp stock and could barely get out of its own way before. Now I'm watching my speedo and rarely downshifting on the fairly gentle hills around here. I know i'm not holding anybody up around town either. 8)
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% ?
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About how long is the turnaround time?
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I'm in S.C. and it got here in 4 days I believe. You just have to check beforehand if he has one done. You get your deposit back when you mail your old one back.
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Just outa curiosity, what's the timing set at?
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I would love to hear dyno figures for a 1.6 n/a with a giles performance pump. I think my car got 52 hp stock and could barely get out of its own way before. Now I'm watching my speedo and rarely downshifting on the fairly gentle hills around here. I know i'm not holding anybody up around town either. 8)
actually it was in one of the threads... the performance N/A pump gave around 22hp to the wheels.
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Yeah, a g-tech isn't exactly the best way to dyno something, although it's better than a butt dyno. I think a stock pump in good condition compared to giles pump with a same day, same car, same dyno situation would be the best.
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Yeah, a g-tech isn't exactly the best way to dyno something, although it's better than a butt dyno. I think a stock pump in good condition compared to giles pump with a same day, same car, same dyno situation would be the best.
was it really a g-tech though?
possibly the main reason for the large increase in HP is due to calibrating the pumps to run on the ULSD which supposedly is a less viscous fuel; meaning that the fuel develops less internal pressure inside the pump, which controls the dynamic timing. Libbybapa explained this in a thread somewhere... i'm too tired to dig it up though.
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So you are saying that my car went from 54 to 75-76 hp with just the new performance pump? That is an awesome jump. I know it feels like a different engine but I didn't know it was that high. Still not a burner, but it definitely keeps up with traffic and passes a few :lol: Now I need to buy new shocks, struts, and heavy duty springs. Hmmmm KYB's and TDI springs?
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so just to clarify, Giles has been massing fuel pump cores and working his magic on them?
So if i were to call in on monday and get a quote and whatnot about getting a fuel pump, will he just send me one he has already built, or will i have to send my stock one in first to get worked on?
I was hearing about a core deposit, and that you get credited back when he receives your old pump so i was just curious as to how the whole process goes now.
Anyone know off hand?
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depends if he has one ready in stock. he did for mine. Btw do you have a strut bar on your car? Seems like i saw your car on another forum. If it was you, which one fits? 8v or 16v and do they help much? 8)
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(http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL842/4102322/8647267/256316226.jpg)
(http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL842/4102322/8647267/256316200.jpg)
its a neuspeed 8V strutbar. And yes there is noticeable difference in steering response and roll when cornering.
Damnit i want a giles pump now!!!! i must call on monday...need...more...power!
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was it really a g-tech though?
That's what the poster who claimed 22hp said.
possibly the main reason for the large increase in HP is due to calibrating the pumps to run on the ULSD which supposedly is a less viscous fuel; meaning that the fuel develops less internal pressure inside the pump, which controls the dynamic timing. Libbybapa explained this in a thread somewhere... i'm too tired to dig it up though.
Nah, they said it g-teched at ~70+hp, so I don't think ti was running less. It seems that what Giles does increase fueling per injection event as well as peak fueling/timing, but I'm still reading up on these forums and can't say much fer sure.
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wonder if it would clear my airbox?
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zagarus, looks really good, how bad was the fmic setup to do? I am getting ready to do one and will be putting on my tower brace too. great looking ride man.[/quote]
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Looks as though the intercooler pipe was fabled to duck under the anti-roll bar, very neat 8)
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was it really a g-tech though?
That's what the poster who claimed 22hp said.
possibly the main reason for the large increase in HP is due to calibrating the pumps to run on the ULSD which supposedly is a less viscous fuel; meaning that the fuel develops less internal pressure inside the pump, which controls the dynamic timing. Libbybapa explained this in a thread somewhere... i'm too tired to dig it up though.
Nah, they said it g-teched at ~70+hp, so I don't think ti was running less. It seems that what Giles does increase fueling per injection event as well as peak fueling/timing, but I'm still reading up on these forums and can't say much fer sure.
the main reason for the hp/economy boost is still the fact that the pump is calibrated on the new ULSD fuel. these old pumps were calibrated on a fuel that was more viscous and had different properties. obviously more fuel is needed for significant power gains though.
it all has to do with getting the right dynamic timing. if that is off, then you will have crappy economy/power in the higher rpm range. you have to remember that auto manufacturers need to have emissions control in their vehicles. this means less hp due to less dynamic advance.
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Go back and check out some of giles' posts. Based on what I've read he does alot more than just reset internal pump pressure. In fact, libbyapa posted a howto on it, and IIRC it can be done w/ the pump on the engine. I don't think giles would charge $800+ for something that can be done w/ the pump in the car
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Glad you like your pump, Mountain Bob! Giles said he was talking to you and you were pretty happy with it.
As a matter of full disclosure, I work for Giles. So feel free to doubt or question anything I say - it's only fair that I make my affiliations known.
the main reason for the hp/economy boost is still the fact that the pump is calibrated on the new ULSD fuel. these old pumps were calibrated on a fuel that was more viscous and had different properties. obviously more fuel is needed for significant power gains though.
it all has to do with getting the right dynamic timing. if that is off, then you will have crappy economy/power in the higher rpm range. you have to remember that auto manufacturers need to have emissions control in their vehicles. this means less hp due to less dynamic advance.
That's not actually accurate - the pumps are calibrated on VISCOR calibration fluid, just as they have been for years. Here's a link to our supplier: http://www.rockvalleyoil.com/Calibration_Fluids.htm. You could even buy some yourself for between >$5/L. :shock: At the time when I posted this, the Rock Valley Oil and Chemical Co. page isn't responding, but that is the link where you'll find info about VISCOR diesel calibration fluid, which is what we (and all certified diesel shops) use in their test benches. Either way, the main reason for the hp/economy increase has absolutely nothing to do with the pump being recalibrated on or for ULSD, because it is NOT recalibrated on/for ULSD. They don't need to be. Viscosity compensation is already part of the pump's design, which is how it functions through a range of viscosities based on different fuel grades and temperatures. I am wrong on that. Some of the newest pumps have temperature and pressure compensation, but the VE pumps used in our cars do not. They don't need to be calibrated with a specific-viscosity fuel, but neither do they have active viscosity compensation mechanisms. Sorry, my bad! [/b]
The (fuel pump) manufacturers and refiners consulted with one another and designed ULSD to fall within the range of viscosities and other physical characteristics necessary to function properly in existing diesel equipment; although it's got a few undesirable aspects, it is overall functionally similar. Neither its energy density nor viscosity are such that they appreciably impact performance in modern diesel equipment overall. The obvious exception to that is the fact that ULSD can mess up your seals due to swelling from previous long-term exposure to Low Sulphur Diesel, but that's a simple chemical reality, not having anything to do with the way that the fuel functions in terms of combustion / fuel metering, etc.
With regard to the whole "we need dyno numbers" - Giles and I both totally agree, and we are planning to do a same-day, same-car dyno with a stock pump, clean lines / injectors / etc. and a modified performance pump so that we can put some of the debate to bed. It's probably not going to happen until at least the new year, however. As far as I know, nobody has done a same day, before/after dyno with one of these pumps. One big problem in trying to do such a dyno is that most dynos can't read speed info from the diesel tach. We have access to the right equipment (I say that vaguely because I don't know what equipment I'm referring to, but we've had this discussion, and Giles has or can get it) to make a dyno read the tach from one of these cars - so we're set just as soon as we can get around to it.
A G-tech dyno isn't the best way to provide real data, and butt dyno results definitely don't add much to the discussion. We're not interested in trying to base the performance debate on hype and "We promise, it's true" numbers or subjective measures. I can tell you from working at Performance Diesel Injection that a 30-40% power increase is a conservatively realistic measure for one of Giles' pumps. Fuelling can in some cases be increased by well over 100% above stock - that is to say that the other day, we looked at a ~150% fuelling increase (ceiling - not all through the range) in one pump. The doesn't correlate directly to power, as there are losses, but with an appropriate intake system (including charging system), you can reasonably get 30%, 40% and better out of one of these pumps - not to mention the fact that your ride is virtually smokeless.
Lyeinyoureye is correct as far as Giles' mods - it would be nice if I could just explain everything that he does, but I can't. That's partially because I don't know all of it, but it's also because this is how he makes his living. I can tell you that he has spent a pile of time, effort, and money on the R & D to figure out the stuff that he has. I can tell you that many or most pump rebuilders could not emulate his modifications even if they did know exactly what they were. I can tell you that all custom pumps done at Performance Diesel Injection are genuinely CUSTOM, from the ground up. They're not sitting on the shelf - we have a pile of cores around, but any customer who has dealt with Giles on this will be able to verify that he asks for quite a bit of detail so that he can modify the pump specifically for the intended vehicle, driving style, etc. Giles does some pretty extensive modifications to the internals of the pump - he's not just increasing pump pressures or dialling up the fuelling through the whole range, as people occasionally suggest.
One other thing that I can say pretty clearly: If Giles charged the regular Performance Diesel Injection shop rates (i.e. the same prices as working on pumps for heavy trucks, bulldozers, generators, and whatever else) on custom pumps, they'd be costing more like $2,000. That is a fact, based on the amount of time that he spends customizing each individual pump. That's not to say "Oh, each pump is worth X or Y" - but unequivocally, he could charge that amount of money and still be well in line with accepted diesel injection industry pricing. He doesn't, because he is a complete speed freak (Anybody seen or heard of his 50HP / 300lb wet, with him on it shifter kart? 90mph, a couple inches off the ground on a go-kart! 8) ). He likes helping people go fast, and he takes an incredible amount of pride in his work. Also, he actually enjoys what he does.
People are absolutely entitled to their opinions about the pumps (Worth the money / not worth the money, etc) but as far as the amount of time Giles spends on each one and the level of customization present in each, that's not up for debate. Nobody, and I mean nobody, does the level of work on these pumps that Giles is doing, and the main reason is the fact that in order to make ANY money at it at a price people will pay, you've got to be as good, and as fast, as he is. You'll find guys who charge less, that's correct. But you simply will not find anybody who does a better job. Period, full stop. And just as soon as I have numbers to back that up, they'll be appearing here, along with video so that you can see the difference and see the contrast between a Giles pump and many others - no smoke, silky smooth operation throughout the range.
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well said, im sure i speak for everyone when i say that we appreciate your honesty
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sent ya a pm Ben, hope to talk to Giles sometime this week...I need one of these pumps once and for all.
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Thanks, spencebm.
so just to clarify, Giles has been massing fuel pump cores and working his magic on them?
So if i were to call in on monday and get a quote and whatnot about getting a fuel pump, will he just send me one he has already built, or will i have to send my stock one in first to get worked on?
I was hearing about a core deposit, and that you get credited back when he receives your old pump so i was just curious as to how the whole process goes now.
Anyone know off hand?
1. Giles has a pile of pump cores.
2. If you call in tomorrow (today, I guess - I'd better get to bed :shock:) then he will start working on one of his existing cores as soon as you like, and he will credit you back when he receives your core.
OR, he will wait until you ship yours in, work on it, and send it back. Basically, as long as he gets another similar / identical pump as a core, you're good to go as far as the core charge is concerned. It's just a question of how fast you want / need the pump and stuff. But no, he does not have or keep custom pumps on the shelf, because each one is made to suit your particular arrangement, intended charging system (specific size turbo, boost pressure, intercooler / non, etc.) and driving style (autocross? Long highway cruiser? etc.). So give him a call or send him an e-mail if you want and he can give you pricing info and a time estimate.
Zagarus: already hit you back. Let me know if you need any other info - otherwise, we might be talking tomorrow.
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hmmm interesting that you guys dont use diesel to calibrate the pumps. learn something new everyday!
obviously using a dyno to test an old pump vs a Giles pump is unfair though :lol: and the internal pressure is probably way off and in need of adjusting. the main reason i spoke of internal pressure calibration being a key component is due to the fact that it relates to the dynamic timing. VW themselves have a specific timing curve to lower certain emissions, but also lower power. i'm sure that the governor is modified as well to compliment the extra dynamic timing in such a way that the car runs smooth still as most people DIY get hangs in RPM and other bizzare issues. in the end it is really the fuel that gets these cars moving though.
hats off to you Ben! :D
i'd like to have a gauge to see my internal pump pressure beyond 3k rpm. it just seems to drop off so much power from there as before it had a bit more go after that with my previous pump. i think it could be the dynamic timing but for the time being i'll just drive as is until i get my m-TDI engine running.
one thing is for sure though... Giles is rebuilding my mTDI pump for me. the guys over in Europe building mech pumps have nothing on Giles. i'd buy stock in his company if i could :lol:
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hmmm interesting that you guys dont use diesel to calibrate the pumps. learn something new everyday!
one thing is for sure though... Giles is rebuilding my mTDI pump for me. the guys over in Europe building mech pumps have nothing on Giles. i'd buy stock in his company if i could :lol:
Thanks for the kind words, Jtanguay.
Main reason for not using diesel for calibration is that the ASTM specs for fuels don't closely regulate the composition or physical characteristics of the fuel. That is to say that they are functional guidelines, not chemical recipes. The difference is an important one - diesel fuel or gasoline must behave in certain ways, but their actual makeup is not stipulated at all by the specs that govern them. That makes it much easier for refiners to make diesel / gasoline, because they can "fudge" the numbers a bit depending on the makeup of any given barrel of crude. (OK, I'm sure that's more than enough info on petrochemical manufacture for everyone's liking but me :lol: ) Anyway, the spec that governs calibration fluid (VISCOR diesel stuff is only one example) is a specific composition guideline as well as a functional guideline. Basically, the upshot is that diesel or gasoline can vary wildly in terms of composition - all you know for certain is that it is within the necessary operational parameters for your engine to run... not necessarily to run well, or ideally, but to run nominally. With calibration fluid, you know from day to day, week to week, and month to month EXACTLY what the stuff is made of, and EXACTLY how it will function. So any test reading done with that stuff consistent and externally as well as internally valid. That's also why testing is expensive - you need to drain a pump, mount it up, etc. - you can't just throw it on the bench, because contamination of calibration fluid with diesel fuel destroys the carefully enforced spec, potentially throwing your test readings out in future.
As far as the European pump builders and others - some of those guys do really take pride in their work - I'm not knocking their integrity or anything. But my experience with a number of such pumps (experience which is limited, so take from it what you will) includes strange and undesirable things like mixing and matching components (One head goes with one rotor - there is no such thing as a "good" head and "bad" rotor or vice versa... tolerances are so close that you CANNOT mix and match.) And heavy use of inexpensive non-OEM components which are always "pretty close" but not necessarily close enough to work for very long.
Then again, there are other guys who do a perfectly passable job for a perfectly passable price. Their customers may not be excited fans, but they can be perfectly satisfied too - it all depends on what you want and what you expect. When good enough is good enough, you may not need to deal with Performance Diesel Injection. If you'll only settle for the best... Giles would love to do whatever crazy modifications you've got in mind.
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I don’t have the time or money to learn everything to build a performance fuel pump, that’s why my 1.6TD pump is at Giles right now. Hope I got all the fuel out, sorry if it didn’t all drain. It was old n nasty. :oops:
Letting Giles set up my pump for the autocross car is one less thing I need to worry about. If I can find and sort out the rest of the parts, I’ll let y’all know how it is after the first event, end of Feb.
For the RPM signal to the dyno I was thinking of making an optical coupler, that way I can use a regular gas tach and have a signal for the dyno also. Have a link to schematics on the home computer. Converting to a diesel tach wouldn't help the dyno, they scratched their heads and couldn't figure an easy way when I wanted to test my 98 TDI.
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I don’t have the time or money to learn everything to build a performance fuel pump, that’s why my 1.6TD pump is at Giles right now. Hope I got all the fuel out, sorry if it didn’t all drain. It was old n nasty. :oops:
It *was* old and nasty. I drained and cleaned that one just the other day. :wink: Wasn't too bad, just looks like it was sitting for a while. Good luck in the events!
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All I can add to this is that anyone considering a high perf pump on a 1.6 NA really needs to think about taking the head off and doing a nice port job. Also, maybe think even more seriously about a set of headers and a free-flowing exhaust. You would be surprised at how much airflow you can free up - which may or may not match the delivery curve of the pump. I have built MkII NAs with stock pumps that were almost as good as TDs for performance. I just wish I had a pump builder available at that time.
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Any suggestions on a cheap exhaust manifold source that will get better flow? BTW I just had my head completely redone, and a giles hi-perf pump put on, is it expensive to clean up the head for better flow.
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id assume yer intake manifold would flow a lot better then a TD intake manifold to begin with. Port and polish it maybe?
I've also been calling Giles pumps G.M.F.P.O.D's. "Giles modified fuel pump of death" lol :lol: