VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: BejamminR on November 30, 2007, 09:35:25 am
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I think you guys will all like this. Here we have an imported European Audi 2.5L 5-cylinder TDI (Engine code AAT). We have eschewed electronic control and outfitted a Giles mechanical fuel pump. In this video, we're just firing up the engine for its final test run before sending it home with the customer. I'm bracing the engine, because it's suspended from a hoist - Giles is firing it up. 8) Crazy? Maybe. But look at how smoothly and quietly that baby runs... Oh yes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6fYi13CBlU
If you guys have any questions, ask away! We have some more pictures of the engine and pump while still in progress, which should be posted on the Performance Diesel Injection website once it is live. I'm presently working on that with Giles, and we're hopeful that the site will be fully operational before the start of 2008. We'll be sure to keep everyone posted! :wink:
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whats that powerhouse going into?
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Originally, it was intended for a 1994 Audi A6 C100 Quattro. So at stock, it was 114bhp (~85kW). With everything fully modded, it should be something in the range of 150+HP, intercooled, with a Giles performance pump, and 4-wheel drive. We believe that the customer has changed his mind and will now be putting it into a new VW Camper van which looks like the Transporter but has a full extended roof and everything. It was never sold here as far as I know, (I'm wrong, it WAS sold here) and was brought in from California. It was a VR6 gas engine, and is being converted to take this monster instead.
Who knows, maybe he'll change his mind yet again and put it into the car. I know I'd love to see it in any of the vehicles. More pictures will follow once the conversion is either well under way or complete.
(Edited for accuracy and to protect the innocent.)
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WOW!!!! very nice :D , I would love to get my hands on one of those motors.....
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It sounds so smooth and silky, has any other engine work been done?
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The timing reference marks were somehow all wrong, so we manually timed it and put new reference marks on. Other than that, we're leaving the engine work to the customer.
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Very nice engine! and vid!!!
Would have been quite the oh' $%(^ moment if on that first crank and SNAP...engine on the floor :(
Very nice sounding though!
Joe
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i can't wait to see this engine put into jason's vw camper van.
as far as i know he's bought it, and will be getting it delivered here in a short while. i'm pretty sure it is a vw weekender.
he was looking to keep the transmission automatic for the wife, but i tried to convince him to go with stick :lol:. since it is automatic, he will need a new flywheel, tranny, clutch pedal, and shifter with linkage (cable shift is probably his best option)
jason wants to start importing these engines and converting them to mechanical here. i'm all in for importing these and turning them around as there is enough demand. apparently over in England they are plentiful and cheap!
Giles did an amazing job on this pump!
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Yeah, sounds like Jay might be actually going across the pond to get the right parts for all of the conversions on that thing. Whichever way he goes, it's going to be a sweet unit. And yes, Giles did quite the job on this pump - there's a significant power increase at stock settings, and still lots of headroom for future increases. :wink:
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Nice!
If they get common well have to start referring to engines as mTDI-IV and m-TDI-V. :P
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Nice!
If they get common well have to start referring to engines as mTDI-IV and m-TDI-V. :P
Too true... on this board, at least the mTDI's get quite a bit of respect. TDIclub...alot harder to convince many of them, etc. I can tell you how many people I've had ask me about why I didn't go electronics and that its the only way to go... argh...
There is also the right and the wrong way to do it. Sounds like this is another "done right".
Simplicity
Joe
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Nice!
If they get common well have to start referring to engines as mTDI-IV and m-TDI-V. :P
Too true... on this board, at least the mTDI's get quite a bit of respect. TDIclub...alot harder to convince many of them, etc. I can tell you how many people I've had ask me about why I didn't go electronics and that its the only way to go... argh...
There is also the right and the wrong way to do it. Sounds like this is another "done right".
Simplicity
Joe
hopefully this will help convert the skeptical :) or at least those with constant CEL's and vag-com issues... :lol:
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I really hope it will. Done right, as mentioned above with a properly worked pump there is room for alot more tuning and power just from a turn of the pump, a few adjustments, etc. I still have alot I can do on my pump...and lets not even go into the timing possibilities.
I prefer the simplicity (not that I couldn't handle the electronics) and think that it can make the same if not more power than an "e" car. Though, I don't have the dyno to prove that yet. Only a single wire, mechanically operated TDI that runs silky smooth too :)
Joe
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Bejammin:
Kind of new around here, so I have to ask, who/what/where is Giles?
Reason I ask is that I have a 2.5 TDI sitting on the engine stand in my shop, and we are going to put it into my best pal's Westy Sycro (minty 1987). Got most of what I need, but was thinking seriously of going mechanical instead of electronic control. Sounds like you may be able to steer me to a good solution to this issue.
I have a 2.0 TD that is going into my 924 some day, and that is just the proof-of-concept to build one of my girls a 924S or 944 TDI, but the price of the 2.5 is sufficiently high to want to know the whole thing works as I hope before splashing the cash. Again, going MTDI is preferred.
Pat
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Pat:
Full Disclosure: I work for Giles, so feel free to question or challenge my assertions. I'm a pretty honest guy and I'm not saying anything that's untrue, but I think it's important to make affiliations well known.
Giles is a 20-year veteran of the diesel fuel injection industry. He has spent the past 20 years (up until 2nd quarter of this year) working at someone else's shop, in which he spent the majority of that time running it for the actual owner. As of the 2nd quarter of this year, he is operating his own shop - Performance Diesel Injection in Markham.
Giles' main claim to fame is a number of modifications that he can and does do to a variety of mechanically-controlled diesel fuel injection pumps and some electronically-controlled ones as well. His specialty niche is the series of pumps which are used in VW / Audi group IDI diesels, and/or the mechanical conversions for VW / Audi group TDI's. While I'm not really allowed to talk about specifically what he does (also, I don't know all of the things he does), his modifications are all custom, in some cases involving job-specific parts fabrication or modification from stock, rather than simple installs and "mix-and-match" of readily-available commercial components. So rather than just slapping together components from other pumps, or commerically available parts for "performance" purposes, Giles heavily modifies the pump internals to support not just increased fuelling, but increased efficiency - fuelling within appropriate parameters for the engine such that you aren't limited to the compromise of increased power equalling proportionately increased black smoke, and when you're not using the full force of your new power, your mileage is increased significantly.
So basically, Giles owns and operates a company called Performance Diesel Injection in Markham, Ontario. He makes a mean performance diesel fuel pump and specializes in the pumps for our vehicles, as well as doing rebuilds, testing, calibration, etc. of virtually any diesel fuel pump you like. He has something of a reputation on these forums, because many people know and like his pumps, and others wish that he'd tell exactly what he does to them. Since these mods are classified as trade secrets (he really did spend a pile of time, money, and effort on the R & D to learn them) he keeps it pretty quiet. Can't argue with results, though. Hopefully before too long we should be able to provide some clear-cut numbers as well.
Hope all of that provides an answer.
As far as the M-TDI pump and stuff, feel free to either ask around to folks on this board, or give Giles a call at Performance Diesel Injection in Markham.
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If it's alright with you, I would like to come around an visit if I can during my next trip to Hogtown (this week or next).
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Pat: Come on down anytime - we're at 187 Steelcase Road West Unit 16 in Markham. It would be better if you call ahead though so we know you're coming - 905-940-2266. Talk to either Giles or myself.
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Thanks. Will give you a shout when I can find some time to get off of the project (Portlands Energy Centre).
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OMG now if only someone would figure out how to get that engine in my Jeep Wrangler. :)
That would be just the right size. Everything else is either too big or too small. The 4B Cummins and the Isuzu 4's are just too big, either one of them are a couple hundred pounds heavier than the current iron I-6, that would throw the balance of the Jeep off too much for my likings. (the 50-50 balance is one of it's strong points)
Any ideas how much that running setup weighed?
Looks great guys,
Brendan
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Them engines are in loads of stuff, first came out in the Audi 100, later redesignated the A6, but the first gen of A6.
The engine is also used in the T4, what you call a Eurovan from 1996 to 2003.
Volvo also ran the engine in their S and V range of cars, although I'm not sure which ones, but it's deffo a VW engine.
I have one in my T4, I have the lowest output one at 88hp, but with a set of nozzles, and intercooler and a remap you can almost double that without too much effort, these come with stanadyne injectors.
Common ones are the 102hp which come with an intercooler and bigger bosch injectors and in Germany they got the legendary 151hp multivan whcih had a bigger (radiator sized) FMIC.
Cheap they are not!
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Mr. Brickyard:
We have one of the low HP 2.5 TDIs (can't remember the engine code, and I am about 1000 miles away from my shop right now, but it is from an '02 Eurovan, I believe) that is going into a T3 Westy Syncro this winter.
Giles will build an M-TDI pump (as soon as someone out there in Torontoland finds a 2.4 pump for us/him) and we will keep it down to maybe .205s and the existing TINY turbo, but with an intercooler (probably Audi 5000, mounted in one of of the T3 air ducts).
Two things I could sure stand:
#1 tell us all more about these engines. While they are common as dirt to you, they are a very exotic mystery to those of us treated like mushrooms by VWAG and fed only the droppings from the Euro-table.
#2 can you source locking front diff for us? We will get things going with the regular stuff, but again, over here, we only got locking REAR diffs. Will have our current transaxle re-geared with heavier and taller top pair (and new slider) as well, but want/need to the front to match.
Regards - Pat
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I just finished installing an old 5 cylinder IDI turbo diesel in a 1986 Audi 5000 Quattro. It only is rated at 84 HP and 120 ft.ls torque, but isn't really doggy to drive. It has a fair amount of get up and go. I would like to see a 5 cylinder TDI with twice the power installed in the same vehicle. That would be great. Looking a the pics of these engines, it looks like the oil pan would have to be modified to fit over the subframe. Does anyone have experience with this installation?
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I think you guys will all like this. Here we have an imported European Audi 2.5L 5-cylinder TDI (Engine code AAT). We have eschewed electronic control and outfitted a Giles mechanical fuel pump. In this video, we're just firing up the engine for its final test run before sending it home with the customer. I'm bracing the engine, because it's suspended from a hoist - Giles is firing it up. 8) Crazy? Maybe. But look at how smoothly and quietly that baby runs... Oh yes.
end of quote
BenjaminR the work that Giles and you are doing on diesels is impressive, a 5 cylinder audi must be smooth and powerful...maybe one day you will do a V10 VW or V12 Peugeot for us to bolt on our rigs, who knows?
For now I have two questions for you both:
You rebuilt my VE with performance mods and sold me a rebuilt Garrett T3. What horse power and torque should I expect from my also remaned 1993 AAZ.
Is the IP as rebuilt by Giles going to tolerate biodiesel?
Thanks.
Haybayian
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Re: fitting in a Vanagon.
http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8602&PN=1
This lad works for me.
:)
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Brick-Dude:
Thanks for the links. Haven't seen any previous referrence to the brace between the bellhousing and front of the gearbox!
Pat
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I think you guys will all like this. Here we have an imported European Audi 2.5L 5-cylinder TDI (Engine code AAT). We have eschewed electronic control and outfitted a Giles mechanical fuel pump. In this video, we're just firing up the engine for its final test run before sending it home with the customer. I'm bracing the engine, because it's suspended from a hoist - Giles is firing it up. 8) Crazy? Maybe. But look at how smoothly and quietly that baby runs... Oh yes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6fYi13CBlU
If you guys have any questions, ask away! We have some more pictures of the engine and pump while still in progress, which should be posted on the Performance Diesel Injection website once it is live. I'm presently working on that with Giles, and we're hopeful that the site will be fully operational before the start of 2008. We'll be sure to keep everyone posted! :wink:
Amazing work Lads!
Anyway of making the TDI pump work?Reason I ask is because I have a 2.5TDI motor sitting on a palet from an A6 and I wanted to put it in a Jetta to make this:
(http://www.vwvortex.com/gallery/albums//Volkswagen/Golf%20-%20GTI%20-%20Rabbit/Golf%20IV/Golf%20TDI-R/16.jpg)
(never got around to it)
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I think you guys will all like this. Here we have an imported European Audi 2.5L 5-cylinder TDI (Engine code AAT). We have eschewed electronic control and outfitted a Giles mechanical fuel pump. In this video, we're just firing up the engine for its final test run before sending it home with the customer. I'm bracing the engine, because it's suspended from a hoist - Giles is firing it up. 8) Crazy? Maybe. But look at how smoothly and quietly that baby runs... Oh yes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6fYi13CBlU
If you guys have any questions, ask away! We have some more pictures of the engine and pump while still in progress, which should be posted on the Performance Diesel Injection website once it is live. I'm presently working on that with Giles, and we're hopeful that the site will be fully operational before the start of 2008. We'll be sure to keep everyone posted! :wink:
Amazing work Lads!
Anyway of making the TDI pump work?Reason I ask is because I have a 2.5TDI motor sitting on a palet from an A6 and I wanted to put it in a Jetta to make this:
(http://www.vwvortex.com/gallery/albums//Volkswagen/Golf%20-%20GTI%20-%20Rabbit/Golf%20IV/Golf%20TDI-R/16.jpg)
(never got around to it)
what do you mean by anyway of making the TDI pump work? check out that youtube video and you'll see Giles did it :wink:
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BEAUtiful :) I remember seeing that on TDIClub
Joe
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what do you mean by anyway of making the TDI pump work? check out that youtube video and you'll see Giles did it :wink:
He is using a mechanical pump not so?
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what do you mean by anyway of making the TDI pump work? check out that youtube video and you'll see Giles did it :wink:
He is using a mechanical pump not so?
yes he's using the mechanical TDI pump 8)
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an AAT engine has 115 BHP not 150.
a mechanical pump is not a mechanical TDI pump. And what idiot goes and throws the wirings away to suspend the engine into a TD? or better, a monster betwen the SDI and TDI engines. I have 4 of those engines and nobody in europe is nuts enough to de-TDI the engine. With the right calipers , injectors and turbo it is possible to achieve a constant 250BHP power. with elektronics and stuff, not with a TD pump. sick.
and the AEL engine has 140BHP, not 150. and it differs from the AAT engine a lot.
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Talk about ignorance!!! :shock: You have a lot to learn, or unlearn as the case may be. :roll:
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I think that's great you are able to achieve those HP numbers. Could you please give us some details about how you got them? What settings have you used?
What kind of turbo and at what boost level?
Have you changed nozzles? Please go into detail.
There are quite a few people on this forum who will be able to understand a quite technical explanation. We are all interested in increasing HP.
Learning is always a two way street. I think you will also find that on this two way street, we have all sort of agreed to be civil. This is not like other forums. Attacks and flames are not well accepted here.
Perhaps you could express yourself in a way that is not so confrontational.
I think you will find the discussion will be much more benificial for everyone involved.
Subsonic
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an AAT engine has 115 BHP not 150.
a mechanical pump is not a mechanical TDI pump. And what idiot goes and throws the wirings away to suspend the engine into a TD? or better, a monster betwen the SDI and TDI engines. I have 4 of those engines and nobody in europe is nuts enough to de-TDI the engine. With the right calipers , injectors and turbo it is possible to achieve a constant 250BHP power. with elektronics and stuff, not with a TD pump. sick.
and the AEL engine has 140BHP, not 150. and it differs from the AAT engine a lot.
doesn't matter what the stock TDI numbers are. it has a Giles pump and will produce how much power Giles has set it up for. there won't be the tune-ability of an electronic TDI thats for sure, but without all the hassles of electronics, that is a price some are willing to pay.
so you're saying the mechanical TDI pumps of the early 90's are actually non TDI pumps? strange, as they don't have pre-chambers, and the injector injects directly into the cylinder... thus it must be direct injection???
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He must be jealous that 1.6's are making almost as much hp. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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so you're saying the mechanical TDI pumps of the early 90's are actually non TDI pumps? strange, as they don't have pre-chambers, and the injector injects directly into the cylinder... thus it must be direct injection???
mechanical tdi pump on the early '90 ?? on this 5cyl engine there is no mechanical pump , the 1t engine ( first tdi engine from audi -vw ) run in 89-90 on the audi 100 tdi typ44 with electronic control.
and may be i'm crazy but i live in europe and i do mechanical convertion on this engine too !
i do it on a t4 vw bus just because part for this car is heavy to found !
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so you're saying the mechanical TDI pumps of the early 90's are actually non TDI pumps? strange, as they don't have pre-chambers, and the injector injects directly into the cylinder... thus it must be direct injection???
mechanical tdi pump on the early '90 ?? on this 5cyl engine there is no mechanical pump , the 1t engine ( first tdi engine from audi -vw ) run in 89-90 on the audi 100 tdi typ44 with electronic control.
and may be i'm crazy but i live in europe and i do mechanical convertion on this engine too !
i do it on a t4 vw bus just because part for this car is heavy to found !
I was talking about mechanical TDI pumps of the early '90's. i wasn't specifically talking about a 5 cylinder TDI pump :wink:
He must be jealous that 1.6's are making almost as much hp. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
lol correction... 935racer is already pushing well beyond with his monster 1.6TD :twisted:
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an AAT engine has 115 BHP not 150.
a mechanical pump is not a mechanical TDI pump. And what idiot goes and throws the wirings away to suspend the engine into a TD? or better, a monster betwen the SDI and TDI engines. I have 4 of those engines and nobody in europe is nuts enough to de-TDI the engine. With the right calipers , injectors and turbo it is possible to achieve a constant 250BHP power. with elektronics and stuff, not with a TD pump. sick.
and the AEL engine has 140BHP, not 150. and it differs from the AAT engine a lot.
A Bosch VE pump electronic or mechanical controlled, both are a mechanical unit with exactly the same pieces, but mechanical controlled pump offer an easy to tune and more potential with proper pieces.
There are a lot of mechanical TDI pump and some electronic IDI pump, It's just the manufacturer wich decide to use one or the other, or use zexel, or lucas...... etc......
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Well, I prefer electric pump as I have a friend who is capable for adjusting it. My Transporter 2.5TDI has now about 350hp, 700Nm and next step is to get over 400hp, 800Nm out of it. To get big power out of any diesel (IDI, TDI, mechanical, electrical) is easy. To get wide powerband for everyday use is not. This is not that critical when you use these engines on a car that weights less than 1000kg, but try that on 2000kg van. And that's just when it is empty and has no trailer attached to it. I also drive my van something like 20 000km every year.
I have always concentrated on driveability and thus suffered some top power, but that's just me. Luckily enough I have a friend that is not copying others programs for TDI, but he invents something new all the time for them. He also made an electrical controlling for my VNT which had a huge difference at highway speeds (earlier >1,5bar, now 0,4-0,6 bar).
Don't get me wrong. Mechanical pumps are cool too and Mynäpump here makes pump mods for MB 3.0L IDI engines. They are getting over 700hp out of those without e-pump, but they are encountering some difficulties with rough idle and low rev area. First e-pump with Mynä mods has been just programmed and it was easy to do as old Bosch is very simple compared to modern ones. My programmer made also an electronic control for VNT on one of those MB's, but down side is cost (about 2000e with hardware and software). You can't do this with MegaSquirt.