VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: Tiz on November 02, 2007, 10:23:59 am
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Right i recently transplated a TDi engine into my mk2 golf. I made a "franken" pump. I used the TDi camplate, head and plunger assembly as well as the TDi timing cover.
The engine revs nicely and smooth but it sounds noiser than usual. Ive been tinkering all day and have managed to get the power up a bit but its still waaaaaaaaay slower than my old 1.6GTD engine that was in before.. seriously considering ripping this tdi out =/.
when i first put it in it was constant white smoke so i guessed i got the pump timing off, i advanced it as far as i could on the pump and i got some more power so i thought hmm maybe i got it a tooth off on the sprocket so ive now moved it round 1 tooth and it seems to be quite a bit better now but i have the fuel screw hardly turned in at all and when the revs climb they hold and sometimes the engine runs away so i have no idea whats going on i need some help.
I know im not going to be able to get it perfect without the appropriate timing tools but i marked the housing when i took the pump off so i could line it back up, i should surely be able to get it somewhere near? But i mean at the minute its terribly terribly slow.
also, my tach seems to be reading way too fast, is it to do with the pulley size differences and if so how do i correct it?
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perhaps something is wack inside the pump? did you time it with the cold engine advance pulled out by chance?
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i have actually removed the cold start and blanked it off.
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arghhh why didnt i stick with IDI...
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its sounds like you have more than 1 issue. I'll post later, I'm on my way out right now.
I'm sure someone else will chime in between now and then as well.
Joe
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damn i was hoping it was going to be a really quick fix :(
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It's normal, the IDI pump does not work with TDI came plate, you will need to replace both IDI control lever and control shaft by other from TDI mechanical pump found in some european car and truck.
To build a M-TDI pump it's easy, but to make this pump to work well with acceptable power is rather complicated.
If you make some search about M-TDI pump in this forum, you will find much good information.
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OK, let me take a stab at it...
The engine revs nicely and smooth but it sounds noiser than usual.
First off...welcome to the wonderful world of mTDI. They usually are louder than their electronically controlled counterparts do to a number of reasons. Most the mTDI's out there you'll hear remarked about sound like a cummins :)
when i first put it in it was constant white smoke so i guessed i got the pump timing off, i advanced it as far as i could on the pump and i got some more power so i thought hmm maybe i got it a tooth off on the sprocket so ive now moved it round 1 tooth and it seems to be quite a bit better now but i have the fuel screw hardly turned in at all and when the revs climb they hold and sometimes the engine runs away so i have no idea whats going on i need some help...
I know im not going to be able to get it perfect without the appropriate timing tools but i marked the housing when i took the pump off so i could line it back up, i should surely be able to get it somewhere near? But i mean at the minute its terribly terribly slow.
In going through all the work to install and get the mTDI or any motor swap up and running properly, your going to want to have the right timing tools, etc. to do the job. Its insurance and a margin of safety that your going to want to have down the road. Not too mention, the worked saved in guess work and potentially catastrophic engine failures that could happen down the road by not having timed the motor properly. I'm sure its been talked to death, but I'm sure you've heard of some of the horror stories of "tool-less" timing jobs. Especially with the diesels. 1 notch in the end could really hurt you and even though marking the IP orientation on the bracket doesn't acct. for belt tensioning, any slight movements, etc. Advance timing on the pump itself by hand is VERY sensitive to slight movements...and really should be set by gauge OR by a very well trained "diesel" ear. However, timing of the motor itself....really needs to have tools to make the process a success.
That my rant on tools I suppose...
Another important consideration with timing and tooling properly for it. Your "stock" setting on the old IDI motor would be somewhere in the range of 0.95-1.05mm on the old IDI TD motor (which you'll only be able to tell by using the dial indicator in the injection pump). I can tell you from experience with my motor that it ran pretty nasty in the old IDI ranges... and as you'll see below in another topic about your pump, mTDI's and DI engines in general like their timing.... I'd start at 1.10mm or so, from what I've found with my motor. I currently am supporting 1.15mm on my motor, though...thats not for everyone nor the limits.
On your problem with the pump "hanging" and running away sometimes, not having the fuel screw turned in hardly at all. It sounds like you may not have your throttle shaft indexed properly. This is the orientation of the throttle shaft to the throttle lever on the pump. Did you mark this setting when removing the throttle shaft from the pump? Was the top cover removed at all? A few ticks off can easily cause this condition, defeating the idle circuit, etc.
If you did have it off, etc. had messed with the fuel screw what you'll find is with the throttle shaft CORRECTLY indexed, that you'll have problems starting the engine...this is where the fuel screw will come in, it'll need to be adjusted in as well as the idle set screws if you have messed with them. If you need info on reindexing the throttle shaft, I can post that or PM me.
I used the TDi camplate, head and plunger assembly as well as the TDi timing cover.
Into which style of pump? Assuming a IDI 1.6 pump? There are a few more considerations that need to be pulled into the hybrid and/or "franken" pump that you speak of to make it work properly on an mTDI.
The biggest things internally with the pump could be your internal timing advance control. The mTDI's like timing advance :) and can pull quite a bit of it. If you didn't "cut down" your IDI pumps internal timing piston which advancing timing, your going to run into problems with the motor lacking power as the IDI pumps timing piston will not allow for "enough" advance.
The TDI pumps timing advance setup is a good start... or cutting down the IDI piston. There is alot of good info on it on this site where even the IDI guys are doing it. The TDI pumps timing cover unfortunately won't do it all.
There are also other considerations in using the IDI pumps, but this is a start. The above things are def. something to look at. ESPECIALLY the initial timing considerations (needing 1.05-1.10mm or so at least), properly timed with a gauge and checking the indexing of your throttle shaft.
Hmm...hopefully that makes sense. Its been a long day and I'm sorta tired. Enough for now. I tried to speak as "plain" as possible, so we'll see
Good Luck. Maybe someone else will chime in with info I may be missing do to the time of night here :)
Joe
p.s. On your tach being off...if you went from a v-belt setup to the serp setup, than you may need to recalibrate the tach because of the pulley size... should be an easy enough adjustment on the tach board itself... I think...however, you'll need a reference so you know "when" its at the correct RPM.
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thank you very much, some very useful information. Looks like making an mTDi isnt as simple as i thought :oops:
I marked the throttle position and am 90% sure i got it correct but i will remove and recheck to make sure.
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right i checked the throttle position and that is all fine. The engine no longer hangs but to get it to idle anywhere decent i have to basically back off the idle stop as far as i can and adjust the idle down as far as i can with the adjust then after all that i have to back off the fuel screw to get it to idle low enough.
My EGT never exceeds 300celcius with my foot flat to the floor. But otherwise it runs perfect, starts on the button with no cranking and revs cleanly aswell as a nice idle.. Just how do i get more fuel into this thing?
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.................the IDI pump does not work with TDI came plate, you will need to replace both IDI control lever and control shaft by other from TDI mechanical pump found in some european car and truck.
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Martin, I was hoping that you would chime in here somewhere. (by the way, you have another pm).
This needs to replaced because of the limited travel of the IDI control lever/shaft compared to the needs of the DI engine if I remember correctly.
Your fueling needs go much deeper than just the fuel screw and the idle circuit. Also, I'd start at A working on these internal pumps items and then make sure timing is "properly" set.
Then you can go after the other items.
Joe
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Martin, I was hoping that you would chime in here somewhere. (by the way, you have another pm).
This needs to replaced because of the limited travel of the IDI control lever/shaft compared to the needs of the DI engine if I remember correctly.
Your fueling needs go much deeper than just the fuel screw and the idle circuit. Also, I'd start at A working on these internal pumps items and then make sure timing is "properly" set.
Then you can go after the other items.
Joe
Exactly what I want to explain without extra detail.
After this, the fun begin......... you need to adjust the timing curve properly to match the pump timing with the timing that the motor need.
There exist another easy way, that consist to put only a 12mm head on IDI pump and also adjust the timing curve, that give aproximately the foctory TDI power/potential, but with some smoke.
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but how come its so wrong? why does my engine rev so cleanly and drives fine etc just has no power surely this isnt all down to the tdi camplate?
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we're not talking about the camplate alone. The TDI camplate inside of the pump is fine...however, the TDI camplate has a very different profile than an IDI camplate...or an IDI pump for that matter. In changing the camplate, the control lever and control shaft and using these specific parts from a DI specific pump, you gain the timing (and travel of the mechanism) to fuel the motor properly and take care of things the current way.
You can throw a cummins 4bt pump straight onto a TDI engine too...and it'll run GREAT...until you get going. same goes with the IDI pump. The idle circuit of the pump can be tweaked and you'll get a nice smooth running engine, etc. etc...however, when you want to put the motor under load, your no longer using the idle circuit and the above needs to be addressed in order to fuel things properly.
The power issue would be addressed with the correct matching of parts to support the longer duration and higher curve of the TDI's camplate.
Otherwise, your not going to take care of what the motor needs to fuel it properly and have the power your looking for. The pump needs to be properly setup for the engine.
Joe
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ah, now i understand. Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me. Its definately a lot more complicated to build an mTDi pump than i thought.
Another possibly silly question. What part is the control lever? Would it be possible to swap the rest of the TDi pump internals and would that work correctly? or do i need to find parts from a different mechanical Di pump?
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What would be the result of me fitting a idi camplate? would the issue be fixed or would i be really lacking in power then?
Once i get this timing issue sorted am i looking at stock TDi power or more or less?
also i fear the cam may have slipped when i was removing the pump so are there any baseline seetings for everything, IE if i set the crank to TDC are there any marks that i can align the cam and pump to so i know they are in their correct positions...
Again thanks for taking the time to explain this to a newbie.
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As Martin mentioned...installing the IDI camplate with a 12mm head will bring the motor up close to stock TDI power (but with more smoke as Martin mentioned)...but it is not a fix all. To address the problem properly, the pump and its internal pumps should be setup for a DI engine.
As for which part the control lever is...
(http://www.cs.rochester.edu/u/jag/vw/engine/fi/YANMARVESmall2.GIF)
I'd suggest maybe looking into someone to help you in building this pump, especially if you aren't familar with the internals of the pumps themselves. You def. want to be familar with the internals of the pump. It depends on your comfort level though.
On the timing of the motor itself. Honestly, unless you have ALOT of experience and are super precise, I can't think of good honest ways to time the motor (that I'd feel secure with) without tools.
There are a couple reference marks. For one...you set TDC using the flywheel pointer...align that to the reference mark in the tranny bellhousing...
The camshaft SHOULD get locked into position at TDC...in this position the cam lobes on cylinder 1 are both pointed up. Then a locking plate (which can be simply made from some steel bar stock) is inserted in the end of the cam...if you have the valve cover off, you can easily see where this sits.
The IP pump, especially if you are using an old IDI pump and sprocket also has reference parts. At TDC you align the small slot of the sprocket on the back to the reference notch on the front body of the injection pump
I can't find a good picture of that right now...
From there, you can then use a DEEP WELL 13mm socket (or there is a special tool) to lock the injection pump in place.
At that point, the engine would be ready to set and tension the timing belt (the brief version), the biggest thing to worry about is when tensioning the belt about the crankshaft moving and setting you off a notch or so...which is easy to do. If you don't have the tooling to keep the other things in check (and time) then you have 3 things to worry about moving.
After that, you can then walk through doing the actually setting of the injection pump timing via the use the the dial indicator in the back of the pump and rotating the injection pump body relative to what the gauge says you need (AFTER being set to those initial timing marks above).
Rotating the injection pump itself as an entire assembly (with loose timing belt) is not the way to go and is just asking for trouble in the end.
I'd suggest a set of timing tools...they aren't too expensive and the need to have the bentley next to you...which does walk you quite nicely through the process. Its alot better than a toasted motor in the end to be perfectly honest.
Joe
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What IP pully are you using? The IDI or TDI
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Justin,
I'm going to assume that he is using the IDI pump pulley at the moment. Almost would have to be.
The TDI one will not fit the old IDI pumps....it is larger do to the 17mm shaft of the IDI pumps compared to the 20mm shaft of the TDI pumps (and most DI pumps for that matter).
Joe
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You can use a 1.6 ford escort,fes,orin, bosch pump its got the big shaft and mod that with the tdi stuff etc
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Yeap, on that side of the pond...thats a nice option...in the U.S. here we are pretty limited. Most straight forward would be a DI specific pump ...
Joe
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also the austin montgo perkins prima pump it has a 11mm head as std , i had one on a 1z and it pulles beter than the fly by wire ( cam plate is a bit difrant to the vw tdi bit still workes ok that is what i have in my mk2 at the mo and it shreds tyres with .216 nozzles fitted )
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sounds good....
Again...options... :)