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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: chrissev on March 06, 2005, 07:24:32 pm
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Installed my rebuilt injection pump and wow, what a change. I now have a brand new car in an 18 year old body. I just touch the pedal and it revs and has tons of power. There's low end torque and horsepower that was never there before. It's a totally different car from what it was with the old fuel injection pump with 400,000km on it. Really amazing. I never expected that big a change. I feel like going driving now cause it's just so much fun. Really powerful and peppy, just amazing.
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Don't forget to add power systems cetane booster for that extra kick (and to lubricate the pump to protect your new investment).
Glad to hear you've got good results!!!
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If you're impressed with an 88 TD with a fresh pump, I think you'd be stupefied with a modded TDI :lol:
I see you're in Toronto; I'm in Oakville; we have a weekly GTG in Burlington every Tuesday rain-or-shine at a restaurant at Appleby Line (off the QEW) and Upper Middle Rd.
PM me for more details, and I'd be pleased to take you for a test ride :D
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Chrissev....did you do your own pump rebuild, or have it done elsewhere?...if so where.......
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Hehe TDI Meister. I wish I could afford a TDI :( The good old IDI will just have to do for now!
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Chrissev....did you do your own pump rebuild, or have it done elsewhere?...if so where.......
I bought a rebuilt pump from vwdieselparts.com. Was sent up from the USA. It was the cheapest option, as rebuilt pumps in Canada are quite expensive. I put it in myself in my garage (mild weather on the weekend). Worst problem I had was the stupid injection pump locking pin doesn't lock the pump and I had to hold the pump at TDC with one hand while I put the camshaft sprocket back on with the other. Luckily my engine is rebuilt and has good compression so the crankshaft didn't move. I actually was sent a 1985 pump without the two detent cold start with idle boost so that's a little different, but everything else on the pump is the same. Replaced the timing belt and the water pump while I was at it because it's really hard to get at the top bolts for the water pump with the injection pump in place and those water pumps usually only last around 150,000km so I just did it as an insurance policy.
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So what are the symptoms of an injection pump that needs a rebuild? My 84 1.6TD starts up great, runs fine,has some greyish/black smoke on hard acceleration/hill climbing (which I'd love to reduce or eliminate). But it's got over 420,000 km on it. What are the warning signs?........
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Fuel leaks, hard starting, continuous air bubbles in lines, pump seizure or fragmentation, side play in the driving shaft which allows the timing belt to slide off, etc. I'm sure there are more less obvious reasons as well.
Steve
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So what are the symptoms of an injection pump that needs a rebuild? My 84 1.6TD starts up great, runs fine,has some greyish/black smoke on hard acceleration/hill climbing (which I'd love to reduce or eliminate). But it's got over 420,000 km on it. What are the warning signs?........
Hmmm, maybe I could just tell you the difference between the old pump and the new pump in my car. Idle: old pump: uneven, shaky, hesitating idle, and if I revved the motor and then let it drop, it would go below idle, shake a bit, then slowly come back up to idle again. New pump: idles at 1000rpm, touch the pedal and it jumps up to 2500 really quickly. Lots of peppiness. Never goes below 1000. Feels like it's always ready to jump to life. The turbo: old pump: no noticeable boost under 3000rpm. Above 3000 rpm, some boost, but not all the time, kind of came and went. I thought my turbo was screwed. New pump: boost at just over idle. Really scared me at first when I had the car in first gear driving through a parking lot at around 1400rpm and the turbo kicked in and the car shot forward. It's almost hard to control now, but definately more fun. Starting from 1st from a stop, I get boost maybe two seconds into the start, regardless of rpm. Really takes off above 2000rpm. My main problem now is controlling the car. It wants to go. General driveability: Old pump: car was a dog. Had to really press on the pedal to get it to go. I got used to driving with the pedal half way down because that was the only way I could keep up with traffic. New pump: touch the pedal, car shoots forward. I haven't tried pressing down too far yet because I really don't need to. The engine just screams when it accelerates, and I am hardly giving it any fuel at all. It feels like a new car. Hot weather starting: old pump: the car had to be cranked quite a while before it would start when hot. I was told this was because the pump was worn out and couldn't develop enough fuel pressure to open the injectors (155bar injectors open at around 2000psi). This is worse when it is hot because metal expands when heated so worn parts have even bigger wear problems when hot. New pump: never tested it yet in hot weather (it's -15 outside right now). Hopefully this problem will be solved.
The main problem I had was just lack of power, poor fuel economy, and a general lack of peppiness and lack of life in the engine. With the new pump it's free revving and very powerful. Completely different from how it was.
You need to remember though that my engine was rebuilt 15,000km ago so essentially I have a fresh rebuilt engine and a fresh rebuilt pump, and also fresh rebuilt 155bar injectors. You might not get as good results with an old motor with weak compression. - all this in a rusty 18 year old jetta with faded paint and cheap vw fox rims, a total sleeper car ;) Next up is rebuild the cylinder head and add an intercooler.
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I wish I could be that happy about mine. :(
Freshly rebuilt with new (Bosch) injectors, the engine is very noisy (with a very loud clacking sound, as if timing was way too advanced) and has very little guts.
Of course, before the rebuilt, the pump adjustments were tweaked a little and now it is back to stock settings. Yet...
I think I will first bring max fueling up a little, then see for the idle to be set back where it should be.
Might not want to touch residual fueling : right now, with no load at all, the engine takes forever to rev (especially noticable when double-clutching). Total lack of (very)low-end torque (starting in first gear as never been such a delicate maneuvre).
The mileage is not worst than it used to be, but I expected it be better, especially with the new injectors.
Pump timing is fine (0,95), injectors are the right ones (1.9td and no 1.6 -- wich I check out to make shure).
I will turn a few screws and see what it will be like.
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how much was the total by the time the pump was in your hands?
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Good question! I was talking to a friend of mine that runs a shop in london, he says they run about 7-800 here.
Exchange, duty, shipping, etc on top of US price comes to?
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um... ya for that price, definitely use power systems cetane booster and pump lubricator :D I add a little splash of it each fill and it definitely helps accel :)
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vwdieselparts advertises reman injection pump for $650 US.
By the way... I would not recommend buying any reman diesel parts from vwdieselparts. The place they outsource their diesel injection work to does crappy work. A while ago, I got a set of rebuilt injectors through them, and when they arrived the injectors came inside plastic baggies with flecking-off paint inside the bags. One of the injectors was faulty, shooting a solid stream of diesel rather than a finely atomized cone of mist, probably because a paint fleck floating around inside the bag got into an injector's fuel inlet. When I had a local diesel injection specialist take the injector apart to rebuild it right, we found a cheap non-OEM brand of nozzle inside.
Also, getting an injection pump "rebuilt" will not restore it to new condition. Rebuilding a used but working pump consists generally of only the installation of an o-ring and seal kit like this one (http://home.comcast.net/~vwgtd/ve_mainkit.jpg), followed by the recalibration of the pump's timing and injection quantity adjustments on a test bench. The rotory pump and high pressure sections, which can show wear with high miles, are generally re-used, (unless you pay a lot more to have them replaced.)
Why a rebuilt pump might perform better than before, is probably only a result of it's timing and injection quantity being calibrated.
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how much was the total by the time the pump was in your hands?
$650. And I also bought this wonderful (albeit expensive) tool for removing the pulleys (cam and injection pump). Put it on the cam pulley, turn a bolt, crack, pulley is off. I was so impressed. Usually I have to hammer at the pulley and pry with a screwdriver for an hour at least to get it off so I can do the timing belt.
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vwdieselparts advertises reman injection pump for $650 US.
No, that is not the price. They cost $395 for a rebuilt non turbo or $495 for a rebuilt turbo. Shipped to Canada including tax and the exchange rate, it is $650.
By the way... I would not recommend buying any reman diesel parts from vwdieselparts. The place they outsource their diesel injection work to does crappy work. A while ago, I got a set of rebuilt injectors through them, and when they arrived the injectors came inside plastic baggies with flecking-off paint inside the bags.
hmmm, reman injectors I got from them were Bosch remans, in boxes, from Bosch. 155bar with the rubber thing around the injector.
Also, getting an injection pump "rebuilt" will not restore it to new condition. Rebuilding a used but working pump consists generally of only the installation of an o-ring and seal kit like this one (http://home.comcast.net/~vwgtd/ve_mainkit.jpg), followed by the recalibration of the pump's timing and injection quantity adjustments on a test bench. The rotory pump and high pressure sections, which can show wear with high miles, are generally re-used, (unless you pay a lot more to have them replaced.)
hmm, well if you're ever in southern Ontario I'll have to take you for a ride in my Jetta. I wish I could have taken you for a ride before I put the rebuilt pump in, and then after, so you could have seen the difference.
Why a rebuilt pump might perform better than before, is probably only a result of it's timing and injection quantity being calibrated.
I don't think that's right. The main difference seems to be fuel pressure. When I had the timing belt off and I turned the old pump there was very little resistance which surprised me because high pressure pumps generally are difficult to turn near the break point for the pressure build up. With the rebuilt pump there was a lot of resistance right near the break point with a noticeable break in resistance when the pump fired at TDC. The rebuilt pump appears to have much more fuel pressure than the old pump did.
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Chrissev - That's great your setup works well now - I'm not doubting that. I'm just questiong your conclusion that all of the improvements were the result of an injection pump rebuild. You are correct that adjusting the fuel pressure regulator setting is part of the calibration of pump timing.
It sounds like you changed more than just having your pump rebuilt. You used the different core pump, so it could have had less wear on it's nonrebuildable parts. In fact, it sounds like you got a pump of a non original specification (did you check the bosch number of both your old pump and new to see if they matched?) because you mentioned your replacement pump did awa with your cold start idle speed linkage.
It also sounds like you installed rebuilt injectors at around the same time your swapped to a different injection pump. Could your rebuilt injectors have been responsible for some or all of the improvements you mentioned? I have noticed the same improvements as those that you mentioned after replacing old tired injectors with new fresh ones.
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It sounds like you changed more than just having your pump rebuilt. You used the different core pump, so it could have had less wear on it's nonrebuildable parts. In fact, it sounds like you got a pump of a non original specification (did you check the bosch number of both your old pump and new to see if they matched?) because you mentioned your replacement pump did awa with your cold start idle speed linkage.
No, the numbers don't match. The pump I got is from an 85 turbo diesel. My car is an 88. I no longer have the two detent idle speed boost on the cold start linkage. As far as I can tell, you can put an 85 pump in an 88 without any issues.
It also sounds like you installed rebuilt injectors at around the same time your swapped to a different injection pump. Could your rebuilt injectors have been responsible for some or all of the improvements you mentioned? I have noticed the same improvements as those that you mentioned after replacing old tired injectors with new fresh ones.
The rebuilt injectors went in around the middle of last December. They made no difference. The pump went in the first week of March. That was when I noticed the big change. My old pump had a lot of miles on it though. The odometer on my car stopped working at 360,000km and the car was driven for quite a while after that. When the engine was rebuilt there was no compression at all in one cylinder, other three were low, and I don't know how many miles were on the car at that point because like I said the odo stopped working. The pump was never replaced. I am guessing that it had quite a bit more than 400,000km on it, but I can't be sure. I put another odometer in the car after the engine was rebuilt so I know how many kms are on the rebuilt engine. So you could be right, my pump may just have been really worn out, and the rebuilt one I got might have had very few miles on it when it was rebuilt. Who knows? All I know is it works.
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Gotcha. So it was the pump not injectors, that is interesting... Thanks for the feedback. Congrats on getting it running well!
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Gotcha. So it was the pump not injectors, that is interesting... Thanks for the feedback. Congrats on getting it running well!
fspGTD -- Can you recommend a source for new or rebuilt injection pumps for 1.6 TDs??