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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: carrizog60 on October 23, 2007, 05:37:49 am

Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: carrizog60 on October 23, 2007, 05:37:49 am: hello

i just bought a timing tools kit and i would appreciate a little help on working with this...

the kit is this:
(http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/2695/timingtools001vy3.jpg)
(http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8082/timingtools002nm8.jpg)
(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/2241/timingtools003qa3.jpg)
(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/3759/timingtools004xf4.jpg)

can someone explain what need to be put together and how does the gauge adjusters work?

sorry for the newbieness :oops:
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: burn_your_money on October 23, 2007, 07:10:33 am: ok basically there is a 12mm bolt on the end of the pump. Remove that and then thread in one of the shafts. Then slide in one of those smaller rods then screw the dial gauge onto the shaft and preload it to 1.00mm
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: subsonic on October 23, 2007, 07:15:11 am: I am going to be doing the same thing shortly, and asking the same questions. How about doing a how to pictoral and putting it in the FAQ? I kind of need to see things along with reading the directions to get a better understaning of the process.
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: burn_your_money on October 23, 2007, 07:59:00 am: Here is a bit of a FAQ Benjamin and I made, feel free to contribute but I will delete questions from the thread (the FAQ, not this one)

http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10569
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: carrizog60 on October 23, 2007, 12:53:29 pm: how can i reset to zero?
and to preload?
the only way of the needle to move is pressing forward...or not?
the smaller adjuster on the "side" of the gauge doesn't move...and has a plastic piece between gauge and adjuster...should be removed to work?whats is function?
what for is the parts shown in the 3 picture?
one is solid and the other (U shaped) is for?lock the camshaft?how?

sorry for all the questions but a "timing tools introduction /presentation and diy timing for dumb ass newbies" is required...
something like " insert this into this, this way.." :lol: :oops: :oops:
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: Vincent Waldon on October 23, 2007, 02:53:29 pm: Quote from: "burn_your_money"
Here is a bit of a FAQ Benjamin and I made, feel free to contribute but I will delete questions from the thread (the FAQ, not this one)

http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10569

I'm working on a pictoral HOW-TO as well, since it's a bit tricky and comes up all the time... but it's about a month away...

You "zero" the gauge by rotating the dial until the needle points to 0.

"Pre-load" means making sure the dial gauge has some room to travel ie isn't at the end of its range.

The long bar locks the camshaft at exactly TDC... best bet is to look up the proceedure in the Bentley.. there are pictures of both the cam lock in action and how the dial indicator fits into the pump.
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: slorimer on October 23, 2007, 03:31:53 pm: Hey carrizog60

Where did you get that timing tool kit? How much?
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: rabfan on October 23, 2007, 05:22:24 pm: Yeah, that's a nice one for sure. It blows the kit I just bought away......
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: jolotter on October 23, 2007, 09:45:49 pm: That is a nice kit. My gauge, as well as reading in inches (I measure lumber in inches, cars in mm,) has some significant side to side play at the end of the extention. I think it drags up the cam lobe and gives me a lower reading than actual. That translates to more advance, not so bad, so long as you account for it. I think I'll make a guide bushing to put in the end of the adapter.

I also ground some flats on the adapter so I could get my 17mm wrench on to snug it up.

Johann
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: carrizog60 on October 24, 2007, 10:10:05 am: the kit came from ebay,62€ with dispache to portugal from germany.
as soon as i get home i will provide the link :wink:

edit:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330179976466&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_RCRX_Pr4_PcY_BIN_IT&refitem=330173847643&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&usedrule1=CrossSell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget

:wink:

can anyone scan the bentley on this procedure?
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: carrizog60 on October 28, 2007, 11:54:23 am: hope its not forgotten...
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: numbnuts on October 28, 2007, 03:45:07 pm: so do i need a kit like this to change the timing belt? I am gonna do it at xmas, but was planning on marking up the pulley positions, and just sliding off the belt and replacing as with every other petrol golf cambelt i have done. Is this not the way to do it then? :oops:
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: tylernt on October 28, 2007, 09:54:56 pm: Quote from: "numbnuts"
so do i need a kit like this to change the timing belt? I am gonna do it at xmas, but was planning on marking up the pulley positions, and just sliding off the belt and replacing as with every other petrol golf cambelt i have done. Is this not the way to do it then? :oops:
It's recommended that you adjust the timing with a new belt. If you don't mess with the pump mounting bolts, the timing will theoretically not change much. In practice, I have no idea. What we need to do is have someone check the timing with an old belt, replace the belt, and check the timing again to see if it moved and if it's still within spec.

Part of the reason they want you to adjust the pump timing is because you are supposed to reset the cam timing (no keyway on the cam sprocket) too.
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: Ziptar on October 29, 2007, 05:35:40 am: Not to thread jack but, I just bought a set of VW Specialty tools on ebay.

Looks like almost every thing I need to change a timing belt is there except the locking pin. I can get the Pin fro $9.50 from
zdmak.com, they are actually based in Sarasota only a half hour from me.

(http://i22.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/be/8c/a244_12.JPG)

is this the correct tool for measuring belt tension?
http://www.zdmak.com/wbstore/main.asp?action=PROD&PROD=MK-142BG&CTMP=1

Is it worth having for $50?
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: tylernt on October 29, 2007, 07:24:58 am: Nice kit. Is the socket-on-a-handle for the struts?

You can use a deep socket in place of the pump locking tool.

The tensioning tool would be nice to have... I can twist my belt 45* but I still worry about the correct tension. I guess for Mk3 and later Bentleys, the book requires the tool instead of offering the alternate twist method. But $50? Yikes.
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: Ziptar on October 29, 2007, 08:10:14 am: Not sure if the socket on a handle is for struts or crankshaft, the slotted strut tool is there so maybe the other is for struts. It looks to be a good kit, comes with a Bentley also, I had to go $133.00 for it but, new the stuff added up to more than $295 not including the Bentley so, I splurged. It's all stuff I'll need while doing my swap (already have a Bentley) so sort of a necessity as well.
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: tylernt on October 29, 2007, 08:14:20 am: Yeah that's a good deal all right, wish I had done that instead of getting everything piecemeal. I think the timing tools cost me upwards of $100 and the Bentley was $50 so it's a pretty good deal even with the missing pump lock tool!
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: turbosuzi on October 30, 2007, 08:55:20 pm: On the timing FAQ link it states that when you turn the crank counter clock wise you should continue until the needle starts moving in the opposite direction. can someone explain this? the directions that I have say to stop turning when the the needle stops moving.
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: carrizog60 on November 08, 2007, 11:46:10 pm: any news?
need to do this as i think my timing is off(first time at the shop they timed with the cold lever all the way out ...)

pictures of how to assemble the tool,to lock the camshaft and such are appreciated 8)
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: Vincent Waldon on November 09, 2007, 08:16:15 am: Quote from: "turbosuzi"
On the timing FAQ link it states that when you turn the crank counter clock wise you should continue until the needle starts moving in the opposite direction. can someone explain this? the directions that I have say to stop turning when the the needle stops moving.

Yes, you turn the engine counterclockwise until the needle stops moving... you'll know it when you see it... you will keep rotating a bit and discover that the needle still didn't move !

You then rotate the dial of the dial indicator until it reads zero again.

Carefully rotate the engine slowly clockwise until the engine is at exactly TDC (as viewed thru the transmission bell housing) and the reading on the dial indicator is your timing setting.

(pictures on all of this are still a couple of weeks away... my current rebuild is taking longer than expected)

Vince
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: tylernt on November 09, 2007, 04:51:03 pm: Ok here are the major players. If you got a kit that does the old IDI and the new TDI, you want to use the shorter rod. Unscrew the tip from your gauge and screw the rod on there.

(http://i19.tinypic.com/7wrsite.jpg)

Now you need to screw the "sleeve" into the back of your pump. If the coolant bypass hose is installed, you will need to finagle the rod, sleeve, and gauge in there carefully, but it can be done without removing the coolant hose.

Once your sleeve is screwed into the pump, tighten the lockscrew with an allen wrench. Take are that you are NOT screwing the lockscrew into the moveable plunger or you'll ruin your gauge!

(http://i19.tinypic.com/6jpqpg0.jpg)

Zeroing the gauge is confusing. After you turn your crankshaft backwards until the needle stops moving, unscrew the lockscrew on the side of the gauge so you can rotate the bezel while the needle stays still. Once you move the bezel until zero is under the needle, you can retighten the thumbscrew and advance the crankshaft back to TDC. Now you can read your timing.

(http://i19.tinypic.com/8broub7.jpg)
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: carrizog60 on November 09, 2007, 11:40:23 pm: tylernt for president :D

i had doubts on the timing tool itself, now they are gone 8)

as for the lock bar on the camshaft:is needed to put it just to do adjust the pump timimg or only for engine/pump timing?
if its needed any more explanations like this one?

really great info!!!
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: jtanguay on November 10, 2007, 09:22:34 am: you need to loosen the cam sprocket when you do timing, so yes you need the tool in.
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: burn_your_money on November 10, 2007, 02:08:45 pm: Don't use the cam lock to loosen or tighten the cam bolt, you can snap your cam
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: carrizog60 on November 12, 2007, 04:25:56 am: that is only if you also do the engine timing right?
Title: Which plunger?
Post by: Bludodger on November 20, 2007, 04:38:23 pm: Installing a resealed pump in my '91 NA Jetta. I am having problems using my timing guage. Mine came with one rod (longer of the two I have) and I acquired another set (rod/sleeve) which has a shorter rod. The longer one seems to be too long and the shorter one doesn't seem to fit the guage I have (screw diameter of rod is different than guage)... anyone have this problem? resolutions? guess I gotta get another rod/sleeve set.

Could someone please clarify Tylernt 's comment....which rod should I be using for an IDI? From what I can tell the shorter one is for IDI right?

Tyler stated-----"Ok here are the major players. If you got a kit that does the old IDI and the new TDI, you want to use the shorter rod. Unscrew the tip from your gauge and screw the rod on there."

Thanks

Blu

PS If pictures are needed I can provide...
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: tylernt on November 20, 2007, 05:09:26 pm: The correct rod is 90mm overall, 5mm of which is threads. It's pretty easy to shorten a too-long rod with a grinder or Dremel, but kind of hard to go the other way. ;) The length isn't critical as you can slide the gauge into or out of the sleeve a bit to compensate.
Title: first time with timing tools
Post by: Bludodger on November 20, 2007, 05:27:16 pm: I guess I will grind it down... I think I've tried all variations of sleeve placement etc. but the guage either maxs out or there is not enough space for the allen screw to secure the sleeve to the guage... thanks for the measurements.