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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: drshoebocks on October 17, 2007, 04:37:30 pm
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1982 Rabbit Pickup Diesel
Recently changed all fuel lines.
Currently cannot get it to start. I tried starting straight from a fuel can and still no start. I can see fuel running from the fuel can to the injection pump and there are no bubbles. As soon as I stop trying to start a big air bubble moves back towards the fuel can. Noticed a little a fuel at the first injector return line so I made sure it was tight.
There is another issue which is very puzzling. When we check the oil level it doesn't read. The oil is full, in fact, my girlfriend over filled the oil becasue it was reading empty. No oil is leaking. I removed some oil because I felt this may cause a problem with compression. Basically I cannot get an oil reading. What can cause this, and could this be related to the no start.
At this point I'm just looking for ideas as to my next steps in getting this thing running.
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Should I have more information, or is this stumping everyone? Anything that I can try at all, would be greatly appreciated.
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pull start! thats what i do with a vehicle that i get after it's been sitting for a while or after doing major I.P. work! it will get the fuel primed up to the injectors good for them to pop! make sure you have operable brakes!!
be carefull and good luck!
thanks Duane
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How fast do I need to get it going, and should it be in gear, I assume first.
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just enough that the motor is turning over 1000rpm or more 2nd gear will do if being draged by a gas car. if being draged by another diesel rabbit or sort I usually use 1st gear will do! be carefull and good luck! let us know when it runs!
thanks Duane
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no don't use 1st. there is a lock in that gear that stops the wheels from turning (like putting the car in park on an auto) use 2nd gear.
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Great
I will try it today or tomorrow and let you know the results.
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Dumb question, but
Should the clutch be in or out, and the key I assume would be in the on/start position? I've never done this before and just want to make sure I have the process down.
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Key on, clutch in until up to speed.
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I pull started it the other day and after a bit of stalling out got it running and drove it around for a while. There was a ton of bubbles in the fuel line going to the pump, so I assume I definitely have an air leak, and I suspect this to be from the hard line to the filter. Going to take it all apart and see. Great to have the car running though.
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I put a new fuel filter and refitted the lines going from the hard line to the fuel filter. I tried to start and it didn't turn over, but no more bubbles. I bled some air out of the system and still no start. Battery is very low, so I didn't get a lot of chances. I think I will try to push/pull start it today and check for air leaks. I have a feeling I'm on the right path.
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PS When I got it running I was able to get an oil reading, which looked fine.
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There is a gash on the barb at the injection pump intake which is letting air in. While my girlfriend tried to start it a giggled the line a bit and sure enough a bunch of air bubbles appeared. I then made a close inspection of the barb and you can see a big gash on it and air bubbles. Uggghhhh!!!!
Now I need to see if I can find a new barb/clean barb or find a way to fix the gash. I believe it is made out of bronze. Any suggestions on where to look are greatly appreciated.
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I'm having trouble sourcing the part. Wondering if there is anything I put on the barb to cover up the slice. I'm going to try and put a clamp around it and see if that helps, and I may try to sand the barb down a bit. Any other suggestions?
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I sorted my fuel problem out and there are now absolutely no bubbles coming through.
I still can't get the truck to fire up when it is cold, ie hasn't run over night. Had a buddy come over and we pulled it with my truck and it started right up and ran great. Drove it for a while and shut down. 30 minutes later it started right up with one or two chugs. Drove it around again, and stopped at the local tavern for a beer. Came back out and it started right up and I drove it home.
Next morning-chugachugachuga no start.
Now I'm thinking glow plugs....
Test for power to the bus, check the fusible link, checked the relay socket-and all check out. I pulled the glow plugs and put each on a battery and they all lit up.
What do I look for now?
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even if the gp's are good, maybe the relay or fuse is blown???
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It is possible that the relay is shot even though you are getting power to the plugs, it may not be holding them on long enough. If you can get a different relay try that. It could also be the temp sender
You might also want to try adding another ground strap from the engine to the battery, that usually helps.
How cold is it and what weigh of oil are you running?
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For oil I am using Rotella-T 15W40 and currently cold but was warm yesterday 40 degrees F.
Thinking about it, when I tested the relay the power cut off pretty quick to the plugs. Came on for a few seconds and then cut.
How do I test the temp sender?
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15W40 is too thick below 32F and will make starting a lot harder (not impossible though)
I think there is a section in the bentley for checking resistance at varied temperatures for the temp sender. What you can do is just unplug it and see if it starts better. This puts the relay in a default mode where it powers the GPs for around a minute I think. If it works doing this it could still either be the sender or the relay
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Very Interesting
Is the temp sender the sensor that is on the side of the thermostat housing facing the back of the truck for the one facing the front? I'll unplug it and try to cycle it for a minute. Going to try and get my hands on a relay and try that as well.
Thanks for the input, I feel real stumped right now, and it is nice to have new direction.
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Just unplug them both (remember which goes where) the other one is for the temp sender
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Ok
I took a break on this truck to work on my truck, and now I'm back into it. After taking the entire glow plug system apart and testing it, everything seems to be working. I switched to 5w synthetic oil, and charged the battery really good.
Tried to start last night, no go
Plugged in the block heater over night, my GF tried this morning and no go. Uggghhh
Here are my next steps.
Bleed the injectors and try to start (had to take the injection plumbing off to get to the glow plugs.
Try starting with the temp sensors unplugged.
Then what?
I'm puzzled because it starts with no trouble when we push start it, but can't get anything to go with a normal start. This to me seems like fuel or glowplugs, could it be anything else? Fuel is perfect, more so after I bleed it. Wonder if I didn't follow the procedure right for the relay? Should I just get a relay, and try that?
Any advice will greatly improve my wavering sanity levels.
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Considering that you plugged it in and it still wouldn't start, I wouldn't think a failed glow plug system is the cause. In 30-40F weather it should start right up when plugged in without cycling the glow plugs, at least my 1.9 does. Make sure the block heater works of course!
Do you at least get a lot of white smoke when cranking?
Three possible causes I can think of for your problem are:
-very low compression, poss due to valves way out of adjustment
-injection pump out of time
-starting system not turning engine over fast enough
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Timing or low compression.
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Would it start by pushing it with low compression or bad timing?
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Would it start by pushing it with low compression or bad timing?
When you push/pull the car, you get the engine cranking way faster than you would with the starter, therefore more heat is going to be built up faster. Compression or timing may be marginal and there might not be enough heat generated from cranking with the starter.
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Bled the fuel system and there wasn't even a bubble. The block was warm to the touch, so I'm really thinking the GP's aren't the problem. Tried to crank for a while, and a few promising almost turn over chugs, but no go.
I guess I need to check the compression and injection pump timing. Don't have the tools for either, which should I get/check first?
Still puzzled why it will start when we push it, right away, but not when we crank. Could the starter be cranking too slow? Any way to check this?
Thank you for all the comments, I'm learning as I go, and really appreciate having a direction to head.
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One more thing I thought of
Once the car turns over and runs, it will start no problem until cold. Could this still be timing or compression?
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Did you add a negative cable from the starter to the battery? I had an identical problem in my rabbit and the cable fixed it. I could crank for days and it wouldn't start but I could push start it myself and it would fire right up, usually within 30 feet
Actually take a voltmeter and put one end on the starter housing (make sure it has good contact) and the other end on the negative battery terminal. While cranking the engine over take a reading. Any number over 0.5v and your grounds are not up to the task. You can do the exact same test on the positive side.
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Very interesting.
I will try this today. What size should the negative cable be, and where should I connect it on the starter?
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put it under one of the 2 (or 3) bolts that hold it to the engine/tranny. The bigger the better. 6 or 8 gauge is probably good
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One more thing I thought of
Once the car turns over and runs, it will start no problem until cold. Could this still be timing or compression?
Yes. When the engine is warm, it will start much easier because there is more heat available to ignite the fuel. Remember the whole idea of the diesel's high compression is to generate enough heat for combustion. When cold, poor compression may not generate enough heat and if the timing is off, say retarded, the fuel won't have enough time to absorb enough heat to vapourize and burn.
When you try starting cold, is there a lot of white smoke?
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Not sure what you mean by a lot of white smoke, but there is white smoke present.
I'm going to try the ground to the starter today, and will post back after that.
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well is there a massive white smoke screen laid behind your car when you try to fire it up? or just a slight amount of puffing? any amount of white smoke will show improper combustion in the cylinder...dead cylinder/glow plug...
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Put the ground strap from the battery to the starter. No Go...
There is a little white smoke, but not a ton.
Next Step?
Check the IP Timing-
Check Compression-
????
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Ok this is going to sound kind of dumb
Before I spend money on an injection pump timing gauge, can I just check to see that the marks are aligned?
Take timing belt cover off and check from that point?
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Yes you can check the timing of the cam/crank as well as the general timing of the pump. You won't know for sure though. If it fires up and runs pretty smooth with very little smoke when it does start it probably is not a timing issue (at least not a serious one that could be detected by looking at the belt)
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Yeah it runs real smooth, basically no smoke (it is a diesel) when I push start it.
I'm going to check anyway.
Wouldn't low compression be the same situation, wouldn't run real bad with low compression?
Should I go ahead and buy the timing tools, or is there something I am missing?
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I still think it's a problem with your starting circuit but I've been wrong before.
Every diesel owner should have at least one set of timing tools
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I agree
Should I take the starter off? Anything I should look for? I went ahead and put new terminals on the battery, and ran a 4 gauge ground to the starter. I attached it from the battery to the bolt connecting the starter to the engine.
I'm going to get the tools regardless.
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OK
I went ahead and pulled the starter off (much easier then my Toyo by the way) and it looks pretty corroded. I'm going to clean all the connections up. Noticed that the shaft doesn't spin very well, could the starter be shot. Got a quote for 80 remanufactured bosch with a lifetime. Maybe I should just get that.
Also checked the timing marks and everything seems to be lined up ok.
Hmmm
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Change of plans
I cleaned up the starter connections.
Then I started looking at the positive 4 gauge that goes direct from the battery to the the starter, and it is really corroded, and almost seems burnt out. Going to get a new one now, and will try that. Looks like a very possible culprit.
I will update again.
Ordered all the timing tools anyway, got a good deal from prothe on ebay for everything.
On my previous post I asked about the actual starter. Just curious, should the gear/shaft be hard to turn?
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I have 4 of them in my room :roll: just checked them all and none are what I would call "hard to turn" 5 lb/lbs (just a guess) would be able to turn them over. I was turning them from the gear on them. BTW they are $5 each if you want any...
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Burn Your Money,
I can't thank you enough for helping me on this.
Turned out the positive wire going from the battery to the starter was toast. I cleaned up the starter, attached a ground, and ran a new positive from the battery to the starter.
Brooooommmmmmmm started right up. She ran a little rough to start, but once she pushed all the air through, she started to purr. The synthetic oil makes a noticeable difference. Drove around town all night, and she was running great.
Now she needs a tail light, shifter bushings, leaf spring helpers (my GF is a contractor), and fresh diesel. I'll probably do the timing belt as well, since I just bought the tools.
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Sweet. That's good news.
Before you take your timing belt off it's a good idea to practice checking what your timing is currently set at so you get a feel for using the dial gauge. If you are getting crazy numbers that aren't around 1.0mm +-0.15mm then you most likely are doing something wrong.
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I just thought I'd chime in on your question of the bad compression. I just read on another thread saying that his compression was terrible when it started up but after it warmed up it was up to par. So your engine could be fine when warm but when its not you could have horrible compression.
just done sue me if im wrong. :lol: Im still learning.
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Luckily it was just bad wiring, and biodiesel melted fuel lines.
I'm curious about the bad compression on start up, but normal when it is worn. Would that be a bad oil pump, or could it be valves out of adjustment?