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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: greg123 on October 12, 2007, 03:36:47 pm
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For a little project I need a graph of something very simple, cylinder pressure (inside cylinder) vs crank angle through the 4 strokes. So I can see the pressure at any given point, eg at 90 degrees in the power stroke, at the end of the exhaust stroke etc.
Does anyone have a link to such a resource? I know it will vary on intake and exhaust restriction/type of engine/diesel or petrol, however I want something that will give me a baseline.
Would appreciate any pointers!
Greg.
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It's impossible to determine.
Compression stroke is a bell curve because of non linear relation between piston translation and crank rotation...
Except that it isn't because of the fuel combustion....
[You'd have a slight vaccuum with no fuel injection because of the heat losses...]
Residual heat at bottom of stroke maintains 10's of psi pressure...
All vary according to individual engine; size; coolant type; thermostat; rpm;load;cam position etc.
I do have a generic picture but it can contain no numbers. Only way is to measure your particular engine at your particular required operating conditions.
I know this is not the answer that you want :cry: but unless a test has been done on your engine type and close to your setup I can't see a way of providing data with any meaning. There are formulae for compression stroke...
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I have seen engines at uni with variable compression and a sensor (pressure) installed in the cylinder head.
I'm happy with generic numbers because, for example, there will always be the lowest pressure part way through the induction stroke, highest pressure I'd imagine just after ignition, exhaust stroke starting off high and as the vale opens rapidly reduces and so forth.
Different engines will have variation in numbers but the pattern will be the same, eg you are not going to find one where a vacuum exists during the power stroke and the peak pressure is during induction!!! They will all follow the same sort of pattern, just as it's possible to point to an engine and guestimate it's EGT's roughly - my lawnmower won't be making 1500 but a race prepped car that has a glowing manifold might!
This rough data must exist somewhere. Or some sort of software to model it - I have demo engine analyser but I can't see an output to plot cylinder pressure.
Greg.
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just as it's possible to point to an engine and guestimate it's EGT's roughly - my lawnmower won't be making 1500 but a race prepped car that has a glowing manifold might!
Greg
Ha ha
You must have a faulty mower then :shock:
http://www.letsmow.com/faq.asp#q13
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Friggin Nora, that's a RACING mower!
I have to push mine....
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Did you see the bit about not removing the 'gov'ner' :shock:
Imagine tinkering with your mower and not telling your neighbour then letting him see you whizz across the lawn :wink:
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When I very first started with engines I bought a petrol rotovator/cultivator which wouldn't run. I had no concept of a crank but did roughly figure there was a piston and a spark plug - this is the level I was at. After playing with it for a few days and washing the spark plug in the sink... it finally fired up. With a MASSIVE plume of smoke and started to rev right up.
I had disconnected some bent bits of wire that appeared to be in the way of the throttle, which I assumed was holding it back for some reason. The noise the thing made and the smoke I ran for it, watching from a distance as about 15 seconds after it started there was a large bang and then it wound down very smoothly like an electric motor.
After stripping the engine and learning that it had snapped what I learned was called the con rod and later relating this to over-revving from the disconnected govener, I have to this day been unhappy revving engines - particularly if it's near their design limit ;-)
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Mower racing is big in Maine. Friends son in law put a 1100cc ninja motor into his riding mower. Open class. Freaking nut's. What the hell would the obit say? Joe blow was killed Sunday afternoon in a high speed roll over while riding his Sears lawnmower. EST speed was 75mph.???
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Large diesel engines are sometimes tested with a cylinder "indicator" which if memory serves is exactly what you describe a graph of cylinder pressure versus crank angle. do a search for indicator diagram and you will find related stuff such as http://www.hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/diesel/chap9.htm maybe not exactly what you are seeking but close in any case. Cheers Dan
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That's the kind of thing I'm looking for! I will search more for that and hopeuflly stumble on a full graph.
Cheers!
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Hows this?
Its a 4 cyl, 4 stroke, 1.4 litre petrol (k-series)
(http://i22.tinypic.com/8xlm4l.jpg)
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That graph doesn't look real.
The start of combustion doesn't show. Is it an average of lots of cycles?
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xud9te, thanks for that. It exactly like what I want, however I have been head scratching to try and work it out. I don't see the compression rise and I can't see the 'vacuum' (below atmo) one would typically expect in part of the induction cycle - the graph is 4 cycles long but much of it shows an almost constant pressure, other than the spike.
Do you have any more info on this graph?
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(http://www.fleming-tech.com/images/diesel_cylinder_pressure_graph2.gif)
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Mr the Miser:
It was real when I recorded it last week! :P
It is an average of 500 cycles, yes, so there is some smoothing. We take SOC from the spark and mass fraction burned.
Greg:
Maybe the P-V diagram will help you better?
(http://i24.tinypic.com/a09pgx.jpg)
Cheers
greg
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xud9te I thought the pressure was low for a diesel :o)
Greg the scale used by Mr 'Citroen engine' reads 1 bar at zero gauge pressure; so the vaccum is present.
Now xud... Gregs into Citroens... :lol:
Funny how Citroen diesels run cold [well at least my fathers AX does.] Contrast with VW TD's which are designed to run at boiling point of water hence the requirement to run with antifreeze...
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They don't run cold, well not the tud3 (which is TOTALLY different to the XUD in every way, complete different series) the tud3 has a hot stat in it and in addition has Serious heat transfer to the water. I once got on to boiling point with no water in it in a matter of about 90 seconds from starting (fresh head on, checking all okay before fitting rad etc) and nearly warped the head, sizzled good....
Unless the stat is sticking, they warm up VERY quick and have a notorious overheating problem though that's more to do with seepage into the coolant from head gasket issues from the wet liners moving in the 1.4 alloy block. The 1.5 cast block doesn't heat as fast and behaves more like an XUD. It's got a different head design with the glow plugs and injector positions reversed as well.
My xud warms up to feel heat from the heater by the end of 2 local roads and is hot on the gauge within 10 mins (fully up to temp) which I think is reasonable. The tdi engines run COOLER and have a lot of trouble warming up if you just let them idle. All tdi engines by nature will run cooler as they have less heat transfer to the head and less friction in/out of the pre-chamber, it's why they are more economic. Energy is lost to heat in a IDI more than a TDI. The runner temperature is governed by thermostat choice and I just changed two on a TDI which as I recall were only 87 degree ones, nothing specially hot. The gauge can be misleading.
Modern tdi's run so cold unless under power that in gentle driving they won't warm up, so they have to have a diesel fired heater fitted to heat the car! Some of the new pug 1.4's have that as I recall.
I'll study the graphs more later, interesting!
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Hi Greg,
Another PSA diesel sufferer! My ZX (my brothers zx now :( ) runs at 80 dead on most of the time, and will creep up to 90 if you are at full speed ahead for a while (135mph on the clock!) or if you are giving it some b road abuse.
The cooling systems are sh*te on these cars though I agree. Its THE reason why they need a head gasket at 100k without fail. Then if you dont change the radiator, it goes again because thats what the problem was! Also those stupid bayonet fitting hoses at the bottom of the rad that are about 3mm ID?!!!
Mr the miser, are you sure the ax has got a thermostat in it at all? :lol:
If you want the spreadsheet Greg, I can email you it if you like. As Mr The Miser syas correctly, the pressure scale is absolute, i.e. atmospheric pressure is 1 bar already. Anything under 1 bar is a negative pressure with respect to atmos.
Cheers
greg