VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: travisdj on September 06, 2007, 07:23:16 pm
-
So I had to replace the ip on my 1991 Jetta 1.6D n/a. Got it on, timed and fuel to the injectors. When it will actually crank it smokes white, then the smoke stops. Give it some go pedal and it dies. My buddy has been helping me and he is a diesel mechanic, we are both baffled. We have put a good 15 hours into this thing trying to get it to run again. I just don't know what to do. Any help is appreciated.
-
maybe to better help, what have you and your diesel mechanic friend done to try and resolve this? such as, check if timing is 180 degrees out, bubbles in fuel (fuel related issue)?
to me, it sounds as if the pump just isn't set for enough fuel. what timing did you set it at? 1.00mm should be perfect. try messing around with the fuel and residual fuel screws, but make note of any change by keeping track of the number of 1/4 or even 1/8 turns. how did the car run before? has the fuel filter been changed recently?
-
Sorry for not giving more information. We have tried changing fuel settings, changing timing, timing was rechecked last night. "Idle screw" is all the way in, but when you give it ANY throttle it dies. You have to push the throttle arm in the opposite direction that it should turn to get it to crank. How would it even be possible for the timing to be 180 out you can only fit the tool in one hole. I am at my wits end with this thing.
-
Sorry for not giving more information. We have tried changing fuel settings, changing timing, timing was rechecked last night. "Idle screw" is all the way in, but when you give it ANY throttle it dies. You have to push the throttle arm in the opposite direction that it should turn to get it to crank. How would it even be possible for the timing to be 180 out you can only fit the tool in one hole. I am at my wits end with this thing.
i'm not too sure how the 180 out happens, but from what i've read on this forum, what you describe is pretty much what happens when its 180 out. you'll have to do some searches to see.
did you screw in the service idle screw?
-
Some questions to generate some possibilities:
Where did you get the replacement IP from ?? Someone you trust, eBay special, junkyard ??
Are you getting a good flow of fuel out of the return line as you crank ??
If you crack the fuel fitting at an injector do you get fuel all the way to the injector ??
Timing was set with the dial gauge as per the Bentley service manual ??
-
Some questions to generate some possibilities:
Where did you get the replacement IP from ?? Someone you trust, eBay special, junkyard ??
Are you getting a good flow of fuel out of the return line as you crank ??
If you crack the fuel fitting at an injector do you get fuel all the way to the injector ??
Timing was set with the dial gauge as per the Bentley service manual ??
Got the pump from Ebay, have been in contact with seller and he is preparing to send me a new pump.
Yes, there is fuel flow in the return line, but also in air in the return line.
Yes, fuel is getting to all the injectors.
Timing was not set with the gauge in mm, but everything else was set per Bentley manual.
In the morning we are going to turn the pump 180 degrees. I am going to get a gauge in mm so that we can have it right on. I really appreciate everyones help. I really don't see how we could have gotten 180 out. I know I sound like an idiot. Thanks though.
-
Nah, you're not an idiot... no stupid questions here !!
If the timing is out of wack (easy to do if you are not using the dial gauge) then it will behave really poorly.
Someone else can chime in on the 180 part... I can't think offhand how this would be possible during your installation (easy enough when rebuilding it however... which is why I asked where you got the pump from).
It could also be that the throttle lever is installed wrong.... again easy to do if you miss a step while rebuilding. Speaking of which... did your pump come with the throttle lever on already, or did you do a swap ?
My guess.... the timing is completely wack *or* you got a bum pump... given that it won't run at all I'd further guess the latter... !!!
-
Came with the lever on, but we had to replace the seal due to it leaking. We took it off today to make sure it was on right, and it is now. Still no dice. We are going to turn it 180 in the morning and try that. The pump apparently came off a running car. I just don't get why it revs when the throttle lever is pushed in the opposite direction that it is supposed to move. I love the car, just haven't been able to drive it for 11 months or so.
-
I just don't get why it revs when the throttle lever is pushed in the opposite direction that it is supposed to move. I love the car, just haven't been able to drive it for 11 months or so.
Probably because it was put together wrong.
-
I just don't get why it revs when the throttle lever is pushed in the opposite direction that it is supposed to move. I love the car, just haven't been able to drive it for 11 months or so.
Probably because it was put together wrong.
I would say there is a possibility of that, but it was taken apart yesterday and verified that it was together correctly.
-
I guess our point is that the throttle lever can align with the splines on the throttle shaft in at least 20 positions... so unless it is carefully marked during disassembly it's nearly impossible to get it on correctly without some trial and error.... usually *a lot* of trial and error.
In particular, if you get it on over-center it would be theoretically possible for the lever's action to be reversed.... again, just another possibility.
Vince
-
I guess our point is that the throttle lever can align with the splines on the throttle shaft in at least 20 positions... so unless it is carefully marked during disassembly it's nearly impossible to get it on correctly without some trial and error.... usually *a lot* of trial and error.
In particular, if you get it on over-center it would be theoretically possible for the lever's action to be reversed.... again, just another possibility.
Vince
I hear ya. We left the lever off and tried cranking the car and getting the throttle shaft to work properly before reinstalling the lever, but that was to no avail.
-
Well, I believe you guys were right about the fuel lever. We put it on right, but in attempts to make sure it was closed all the way it got flipped around. It has been corrected and now we are just trying to get it to start. I will keep you updated, so that you may laugh at me. lol
-
Still no dice. Got everything the way it should be, minus using a timing gauge, yet. Changed the fuel filter and it won't even try to start now. I dunno what's going on. I am getting a gauge, so we'll see if that helps.
-
I hate problems like this.
Are you still getting th IP replaced from the seller?
Hop eyou get it going, getting close to getting mine going as well, been sitting for 13 months now :(
dan
-
I hate problems like this.
Are you still getting th IP replaced from the seller?
Hop eyou get it going, getting close to getting mine going as well, been sitting for 13 months now :(
dan
I replaced the fuel filter on Saturday, and we are going to mess with it today. I really hope to have it going this week. It will save me a ton on fuel and I just love driving it even though the a/c doesn't work. I may end up having to get a new one from the seller. It just doesn't seem to be sucking enough fuel. Every time we take the return line off the filter it isn't full of fuel. I don't know what the deal is.
Anyone know how to bleed these things. I don't think there are any leaks anymore since we replaced the leaky seal. I am just stumped. I'll keep at it though.
-
One thing you can try just to make sure you dont have a problem in your fuel system before the IP is to get a good clean container and run a line from it to your IP thus bypassing the OE fuel system.
Like a 1 gal gas can or even a 32oz Gatorade bottle works.
just to see if you have a problem there.
dan
-
One thing you can try just to make sure you dont have a problem in your fuel system before the IP is to get a good clean container and run a line from it to your IP thus bypassing the OE fuel system.
Like a 1 gal gas can or even a 32oz Gatorade bottle works.
just to see if you have a problem there.
dan
Yeah that will be the next step after bleeding the system. I think we are getting closer to this bad boy runnin.
-
Ok we got it cranked now. It starts up but quickly runs away. I know I saw a post on this subject but I can't find it now. Can anyone help?
-
Turn down your max fuel screw.
-
Turn down your max fuel screw.
Roger that. There is a bunch of air in the return line and the filter doesn't stay full. My buddy said it is cavitating in the pump. We pressurized the fuel tank and got a little better with it cranking up. We can get it to run, but then idle gets really bad and it dies. I may have to video it all and post it so you can see. That may make things easier.
-
Turn down your max fuel screw.
Roger that. There is a bunch of air in the return line and the filter doesn't stay full. My buddy said it is cavitating in the pump. We pressurized the fuel tank and got a little better with it cranking up. We can get it to run, but then idle gets really bad and it dies. I may have to video it all and post it so you can see. That may make things easier.
this is where having a lift pump would be great... i would first try possibly by-passing the fuel filter just to make sure that isn't the culprit (sometimes the fuel pre-heater can leak...)
-
For those of you wondering how you time the pump 180 degrees out:
There are 2 styles of pulleys, some have 2 holes in them and there is no way to tell which one is the proper one to use to line it up with the pump locking tool. They are both identical. The only way to actually tell is to remove the pulley and the key should be at about the 11 o'clock position at TDC.
As far as your problem with the pump, hook it up to a bottle and run it off of that and see what happens. It sounds like a fuel delivery problem, most likely from your lines etc. Did you prefill the fuel filter when you changed it?
Until you can verify the timing with a gauge you are just shooting in the dark, although it does sound like there is more going on here then just bad timing.
You may want to just let it idle for 5-10 minutes to see if that clears the lines
-
Ok, so I timed the pump today. It was WAY off. I got it to idle for a few minutes but it would not respond to throttle. I guess there may be air in the lines. Any ideas? I appreciate everyone's help. You guys rock.
-
Maybe the throttle arm isn't on the shaft in the right position.
-
Maybe the throttle arm isn't on the shaft in the right position.
That is the next thing I am going to mess with. What else should I look at? Air in the fuel system? Thanks for the help guys.
-
Ok, so now almost everything is worked out. The big problem now is that fuel cannot get from the fuel tank to the injection pump. Fuel can get to the expansion tank just fine, but cannot get to the fuel filter from there. Is there something in the expansion tank that causes this hangup or do I need all new fuel lines? Where is a good place to get fuel lines? I'm not looking at going with one of the pricey viton line kits yet.
-
Where is this expansion tank you speak of?
-
Where is this expansion tank you speak of?
Under the back seat mounted on the bottom of the car. I believe it's an expansion tank. Fuel gets to it fine, but fuel won't go from it to the filter and on to the pump.
-
The water trap (you are calling it the expansion tank??) is often a source of an air leak into the fuel system. The cheap plastic construction breaks down in cracks so that the fuel is getting air as the pump attempts to draw from the the fuel tank beyond. Bypass it with some neoprene hose, hose barbs and clamps. You will probably find that this is your problem zone. Besides, with the generally good quality of fuel here as well as the throw away fuel filter under the hood, you probably don't need the separator anyway.
-
The water trap (you are calling it the expansion tank??) is often a source of an air leak into the fuel system. The cheap plastic construction breaks down in cracks so that the fuel is getting air as the pump attempts to draw from the the fuel tank beyond. Bypass it with some neoprene hose, hose barbs and clamps. You will probably find that this is your problem zone. Besides, with the generally good quality of fuel here as well as the throw away fuel filter under the hood, you probably don't need the separator anyway.
Ok, I'm sorry for the using the wrong terminology. I appreciate the help. I will replace the lines today and see how it goes. That should take care of it. The fuel would make it to the water trap but would not make it past it. I guess there is something wrong with the trap. I really do appreciate everyone's help. I am trying to learn everything I can about both of my diesels and you guys are a great help.
-
This is probably what's wrong with your water strainer
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=7353
Don't worry about all that crap in the picture, your other filter will get it
Just by-pass it, only mk2 diesels have it, VW dropped it in 1993
-
And be really careful with the anti-drainback valve. Fragile and about the price of 3 2-4's.
Andy
-
Well got the fuel flowin and the motor runnin, but the pump is leaking like crazy. Pulled the pump and waiting for my buddy to help me reseal it. The main shaft seal won't come off and one of the head bolts stripped right out. Once I get the pump taken care of I'll be in business.
-
Got it running and it is running pretty darn good if I say so myself. I drove it on a 310 mile trip and got roughly 43 mpg while doing 65 to 70. I am going to do 55 on my trip home and see how well it does. I appreciate everyone's help. You guys rock.
-
Hey, what was your mpg when you go 55?
-
Hey, what was your mpg when you go 55?
My rough estimate is 48-50mpg. Now all I need to do is lube the throttle cable and have the exhaust fixed.
-
wow, thats better than I can get