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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: zagarus on September 03, 2007, 11:03:55 am

Title: Compressor Surge, good or bad?
Post by: zagarus on September 03, 2007, 11:03:55 am
alright, first off watch this video and listen to the sound when shifting:

http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j11/g60ing/?action=view&current=174.flv


Now who can tell me if thats bad for the turbo or ok? I have been hearing mixed opinions on compressor surge in a diesel and i want to know if i should be doing something to eliminate it or if it is ok to continue driving around like that.
Title: Compressor Surge, good or bad?
Post by: jtanguay on September 03, 2007, 12:21:10 pm
sounds okay to me.  its probably the larger DP you have that is making the turbo more audible.  my turbo sounds the same, and i've pegged 20 psi no problems.

there is a little bit of white smoke, but thats ok for an old tired engine.  btw nice peppy ride man!!!
Title: Compressor Surge, good or bad?
Post by: blkboostedtruck on September 03, 2007, 12:49:53 pm
I wish mine sound like that! my td is sounds softer than that! Is yours a GTD motor? and have you checked your shaft play lately? almost sounds like a slite impellor contact with housing? but otherwise looks and takes off quick from what i can tell in the video!
 thanks Duane
Title: Compressor Surge, good or bad?
Post by: foxracer1 on September 03, 2007, 12:52:24 pm
Thats not surge thats just the turbo slowing down. Due to boost still present on the comperssor but lack of exhaust pressure on the turbine. Just sounds sweet to me. How many PSI was that?
Title: Compressor Surge, good or bad?
Post by: Mark(The Miser)UK on September 03, 2007, 12:56:31 pm
Certainly drives well or was that a speeded up camera :shock:

First Quantum TD I ever test drove had a whistling turbo on tickover/slow driving t othe point that I had to keep the windows shut... Never bought it; but the second one I tried had a 'sexy' warble on acceleration;bought it and it gave 52mpg [US]. Only not driving it because I took it off the road for a respray; and then bought 2 more with road tax on etc... It's awaiting my call patiently in a large dry barn :lol:
Title: Compressor Surge, good or bad?
Post by: zagarus on September 03, 2007, 01:56:30 pm
so thats not killing me turbo? well good to know.  No the engine is just a basic 1.6TD but with the AAZ nozzles, intercooled, 24psi with a garrett T3, 2.5 inch straight pipe exhaust with DP.  Recaro interior and some other goodies. I think its finally worthy of a Jetta GTD badge  :D
Title: Compressor Surge, good or bad?
Post by: zagarus on September 03, 2007, 01:58:58 pm
might as well throw this one in here too  8)

http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j11/g60ing/?action=view&current=175.flv
Title: Compressor Surge, good or bad?
Post by: blkboostedtruck on September 03, 2007, 02:17:28 pm
well I will deem you worthy of GTD badge go ahead ! got an extra one for me and my pickup?L.O.L.
 thanks Duane
Title: Compressor Surge, good or bad?
Post by: numbnuts on September 03, 2007, 02:30:15 pm
8) It does sound cool :lol:
Title: Compressor Surge, good or bad?
Post by: zagarus on September 03, 2007, 02:30:33 pm
if it were a Jetta then ya goto tmtuning.com, thats where i got my badge. Im sure if you sent them an email they could possibly come up with some other euro parts.   Maybe even a CADDY GTD badge  :P   that would be badass, or just make yer own.
Title: Compressor Surge, good or bad?
Post by: Black Smokin' Diesel on September 03, 2007, 04:17:07 pm
Haha I love the sound of the engine :D Very unique and different from any turbo gasser I've heard.

Since we're posting vids...
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k18/idkf1/Video/th_MVI_3740.jpg) (http://s84.photobucket.com/albums/k18/idkf1/Video/?action=view&current=MVI_3740.flv)
Title: Compressor Surge, good or bad?
Post by: bigblockchev on September 03, 2007, 07:42:48 pm
Does anyone have compressor  maps for the various VW turbos. You can tell if the turbo is surging just by looking at the pressure ratio ( absolute pressure) and the engine rpm which will give the flow. If the point is outside the efficiency boundary then the turbo is surging. The vibration caused by the surge pulses is hard on the bearings causing wear sooner or later. Cheers Dan
Title: Compressor Surge, good or bad?
Post by: burn_your_money on September 03, 2007, 07:45:51 pm
I think there are a bunch of maps in the FAQ section
Title: Compressor Surge, good or bad?
Post by: bigblockchev on September 03, 2007, 08:02:50 pm
So Zagarus what is your rpm, boost , and engine size , also what turbo do you have. We can figure it out from there provided that the map is available. Cheers Dan
Title: Compressor Surge, good or bad?
Post by: burn_your_money on September 03, 2007, 08:14:43 pm
Here are the garret maps

right here  (http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/maps/#garrett)
Title: Compressor Surge, good or bad?
Post by: subsonic on September 03, 2007, 09:03:23 pm
I think you should use these!
 :twisted:        :twisted:           :twisted:

Quote from: "OM617"
(http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/maps/t3-45.gif)
(http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/maps/t3-50.gif)
(http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/maps/t3-60.gif)[/list]
Title: Compressor Surge, good or bad?
Post by: zagarus on September 03, 2007, 10:33:05 pm
Quote
So Zagarus what is your rpm, boost , and engine size , also what turbo do you have. We can figure it out from there provided that the map is available. Cheers Dan


1.6l, garrett T3, as for boost at rpm is hard to say as it varies if im on a hill or not, but next time on level ground ill take some readings. any specific rpms you would like?  i can tell you right now cruising on level ground in 5th at say 110km/h im boosting about 1-2psi, if i goto 125km/h its about 3-4 psi.  90km/h and the boost gauge isnt showing anything.
Title: Compressor Surge, good or bad?
Post by: bigblockchev on September 04, 2007, 06:40:26 pm
Now I have opened my big mouth I will have to try to get an answer for you. It is a lengthy calculation with several equations involved. I am going to pick one of the maps supplied by subsonic and try to plot. To start with there is no way that you are having compressor surge at that low level of boost. 3-4 psi translates into a pressure ratio of around 1.27 which is below the surge limit of any of the T3 maps provided (14.7 psi+ 4 psi / 14.7psi). I will retire to the Batcave to see if my aged brain can get a precise answer for you. Cheers Dan
Title: Compressor Surge, good or bad?
Post by: zagarus on September 04, 2007, 07:09:43 pm
thanks a bunch  :D


but full boost in say 3rd with the pedal mashed is about 23psi, then i go to shift and get that oh so sweet sound.
Title: Compressor Surge, good or bad?
Post by: jtanguay on September 04, 2007, 07:16:04 pm
try to stick to around 20-22 psi.  andy2 did some backpressure measurements, and the turbo is most efficient at that level... anything beyond means more turbine backpressure, which means that you can cook your motor pretty good if you spike your EGT's up.  not sure if there are any mods to the turbine housing to try and reduce the backpressure though.

i suggest you try water/meth injection  :twisted:

why did you choose AAZ nozzles? i bet merc nozzles would make your car fly!
Title: Turbo calcs
Post by: bigblockchev on September 04, 2007, 07:24:41 pm
Here for the edification of all is what I am working from. It is taken from an old book of mine Turbochargers by Hugh MacInnes which I haven't used in twenty years or more.

(http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/8249/turbocalclu5.th.jpg) (http://img75.imageshack.us/my.php?image=turbocalclu5.jpg)
(http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/589/turbocalc2ux1.th.jpg) (http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=turbocalc2ux1.jpg)
Title: Compressor Surge, good or bad?
Post by: zagarus on September 04, 2007, 07:43:10 pm
hey jtanguay the car usually is only boosting around 22psi, its the really good nights when it max's out at 24psi, never hits 25 but i seriously think i should get an EGT gauge. I just want to do it properly and put the probe in the exhaust manifold, but i want to take it off to do it. if i didnt have to worry about that i woulda had one in a loooong time ago.  And i got the AAZ nozzles cause they were the ones on kermatdi. Im sure one day ill upgrade them again...when i go 1.9TD  :D
Title: turbo maps
Post by: bigblockchev on September 05, 2007, 07:36:55 pm
I used subsonics maps but was not sure which a/r ratio the turbo has do I did all three. There is a mix of celsius and farenheit temps  and psi pressures but these are mostly ratio calculations so it doesn't matter. I assumed 70 deg F as air temp and .65 as the compressor efficiency for calculation. The black dot is the point on the map at the theoretical 5000 rpm and 23 psi shift point. As you can see on 2 of the maps that point is close to the surge line and on the third it is in the surge area. You can go through the calculations yourself for different points & pressures. Cheers Dan

(http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/2703/calc1fs9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2428/t345modbs4.gif) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/8485/t350modpf4.gif) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/5896/t360modqa1.gif) (http://imageshack.us)
 (Took me 4 times as long to get the pix in here as it did to do the calculations)
Title: Compressor Surge, good or bad?
Post by: zagarus on September 05, 2007, 08:24:31 pm
thanks a lot!! so really i am not getting to the point of compressor surge, or at least not all the time to the point its gonna kill my turbo very soon.  I dont go hard on the engine often anyways, but i drive spiritedly  :lol:
Title: Compressor Surge, good or bad?
Post by: vwmike on September 05, 2007, 09:36:37 pm
That turbine chop sound is nromal. Often I find compressor surge isn't found just to the left of the surge line but trust me when I say you will hear it when it happens. I stayed safe on boost for a while but recently started pushing for more pressure down low. I found I never hit surge until I was coming up this big hill in 6th. With that much load it hit about 24 psi at around 2300 RPM on the GT22 causing the typical compressor surge sound (sort of a chattering) and made the needle on the boost gauge bounce.  I turned that down a bit after so that can't happen again  :D

I never heard anything of a sort on my 1.6TD.