VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Sierra94 on August 19, 2007, 02:12:42 pm
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I just ordered this system: http://www.alcohol-injection.com/water-injection-kits-1/universal-19/base-diesel-alcohol-injection-97.html
Anyone here on the board that has tried it on a 1.9 TD without intercooler? Any gains/benefits of running both IC and water injection?
Give me your thoughts/opinions.
Thanks in advance...
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the kit i bought uses a solenoid to control injection. what does this system use? i saw it talked about needing a vacuum connection.. whats that all about?
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too much $$$
what a rip,id never pay that much for that,i dont care if it gave 50hp
mines cheaper,MUCH cheaper,like under 10$$
i was rolf when i saw some guy at waterfest pay like 380$ for a water injection setup
ive tuned mine in,and at 1 point i was pushing in so much water,it would cough out
at that point atmoization wouldnt mater,its the quanity of water
im not running an ic either,and injecting it into the turbo inlet
if you put it post turbo,you need some kind of boost reference signal to your water tank
hillfolk sez: dont pay more than 25$ for a water injection setup,and dont pay more than 1.09$ for a jug of poor man's NOS (blue washer fluid)
actually ive spent more on blue juice than i paid for my system
this is my "jet",,a pitot tube from an airplane
heres where my jet is located in my intake tube before the turbo
(http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/8918/hpim03867du.jpg)
this was a carb jet i did initial testing with,and it worked good
(http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/6154/hpim01453hi.jpg)
its after the air filter.hiding on the underneath of the pipe,and most people dont even know what that hose hooks to anyways
(http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/1743/hpim0835ow4.jpg)
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You should use a regular style "vacuum hose" to tee in the boost pressure switch so the system knows when to spray.
And as long as you don´t have the pump and tank mounted higher than your spray nozzle it shouldn´t need a solenoid. A regular check valve does the job instead.
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Sierra94, I just put a snow performance kit on that looks to be the same stuff parts your getting. I put the 100mlpm nozzle in and set the pressure switch to 5 psi and get a noticeable power increase but the motor does seem to rattle more. So i increased the pressure switch to 8 psi and the motor seems to sound better. When the water-meth is injecting the boost jumps up about 5 psi rite away. I now have a 200mlpm nozzle in and it pulls hard at 15 psi.
It is hard to tell if it is cooling the egt's down because it increases boost so fast that the lda increases fuel.
I am running it at 50/50 water meth
My plan now is to do a 2 stage install 60ml at about 3psi and have the 100ml come on at 8 psi
Hope this helps.
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so hillfolk, for your setup, is the spray pattern more of a jet or is it an atomized cone? I've been researching the DIY water/meth injection systems and am under the assumption that a cone shaped spray pattern would be best.
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Here's the diy I did,
1. pump http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_357081_357081
2. hobbes pressure switch from Napa
3.nozzle.
http://www.snowperformance.net/product.php?pk=23
4. 1/4 plastic tubing and fittings "mcmaster carr"
5. 6 inch pvc and some caps for the water tank"mounted where the spare tire goes"
and some wire from Napa
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what kind of flow rate are you using?
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You can go uber cheap: old gasser electric fuel pump, switch, carb nozzle, tubing and a tank.
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Now I have a 175ml nozzle in coming on at 8psi.
The only problem with a gasser pump is it will eventualy lock up from rust.
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You don't even need a pump if you're cunning :wink:
If you plumb a boost line in to your reservoir you can use that pressure to push the water in to the intake through the nozzle, since the intake isn't under pressure. The reservoir obviously has to be sealed so your boost doesn't escape!
You can use a solenoid and pressure switch to control the water flow, and the nozzle size will determine the flow rate relative to boost pressure.
A VW tuner in the UK thought this up a few years ago and it worked really well 8)
Mikki x
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Hmm, correct me if I´m wrong. That kind of system must be a pre turbo setup to work that way.
Otherwise you must have a lot more pressure to push water through a tiny nozzle into an already pressurized intake for it to work.
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Hmm, correct me if I´m wrong. That kind of system must be a pre turbo setup to work that way.
Otherwise you must have a lot more pressure to push water through a tiny nozzle into an already pressurized intake for it to work.
Good point. Wouldn't injection pressure drop as the level of air that's inside the container increases?
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Yes it must inject pre-turbo like in Hillfolk'r's picture, in order for there to be a pressure differential between the reservoir and the nozzle.
The injection pressure should remain constant regardless of the air volume in the reservoir, since the boost pressure will remain constant.
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this is my "jet",,a pitot tube from an airplane
Splitting hairs maybe, but unless 'twas you that brazed over the end and put the point on it, that's a static tube, with holes in the sides :)
Could equally have been a combined pitot-static tube. Pitot tubes have a hole in the front, to measure Q, dynamic head. Static pressure is taken from the side holes and the two differenced in the ASI...
Always wanted one of them, should have grabbed one when I could...
Anyway, how much methanol d you reckon is in that Blue stuff? 'cos I can't get much of an effect at all with straight water sprayed into the inlet pre-compressor...
Any idea how much you're injecting per minute? 60~150 ml/min seems to be the given figures for small diesels, 250ml/min overkill maybe.
You seem to be getting a very good effect, though can't see how it increases boost pressure itself...
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this is my "jet",,a pitot tube from an airplane
Splitting hairs maybe, but unless 'twas you that brazed over the end and put the point on it, that's a static tube, with holes in the sides :)
Could equally have been a combined pitot-static tube. Pitot tubes have a hole in the front, to measure Q, dynamic head. Static pressure is taken from the side holes and the two differenced in the ASI...
Always wanted one of them, should have grabbed one when I could...
Anyway, how much methanol d you reckon is in that Blue stuff? 'cos I can't get much of an effect at all with straight water sprayed into the inlet pre-compressor...
Any idea how much you're injecting per minute? 60~150 ml/min seems to be the given figures for small diesels, 250ml/min overkill maybe.
You seem to be getting a very good effect, though can't see how it increases boost pressure itself...
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Dupe post
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i think alot of the blue washer fluid is pretty near 50/50 mix of methanol and water.
smells good too :D
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Wouldn't that make it pretty toxic?
Not that I'm intending drinking it :roll:
...but neat methanol itself is dangerous even on the skin.
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Methanol MSDS (http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/methanol.htm)
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Pic of tank in place:
(http://web.telia.com/~u24321849/caddy/water1.jpg)
Some pics of the intake and pump:
(http://web.telia.com/~u24321849/caddy/water2.jpg)
(http://web.telia.com/~u24321849/caddy/water3.jpg)
(http://web.telia.com/~u24321849/caddy/water4.jpg)
(http://web.telia.com/~u24321849/caddy/water5.jpg)
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One thing to consider about methanol, it has 127 octane. Opposite of what diesel is (cetane). You may want to choose just distilled water or water and a little alcohol for the winter. For gas cars straight meth is best.
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I've heard that methanol has a slight advancing effect, which nicely counteracts any igntion retardation from water injection...
90/10 water/methanol was quoted as sufficient
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Here in sweden the washer fluid is ethanol which I´ve also tested. But I had better results with methanol.
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I would use distilled water in summer and washer fluid in winter, both are 2$ a gallon here.
I don't know how the system is activated but here's how I'd set it up: I'd use the WOT switch on the injection pump to activate the water injection but I'd have a switch inside the car to turn off the whole system when I don't want to use it.
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My system uses a adjustable pressure switch mounted on the intake manifold. I´ve also mounted a switch in the container so the pumps shuts off and a light goes on when the fluid is out.
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it would be nice to have a two stage setup. have a small nozzle and a larger nozzle. get two hobbs pressure switches and set them for 12 psi and one for 16-18 psi. :) by 18 psi it should flow a lot of liquid!
nice looking setup!
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My system can handle that kind of setup. I can get a progressive controller for it that allows the water pump to pulse or go for full speed. That with using a larger nozzle would be just the same.
If it can handle a big Cummins diesel without any problems pushing 500 HP it can handle our small "toy" engines :lol:
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I always thought water/alcohol injection was not good for diesel engines. Something about the latent heat of fusion and reducing the charge temperature too much.
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There is no such thing as reducing the air temperature too much.
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(http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/1743/hpim0835ow4.jpg)
that must be a *** to add oil if you dont have a funnel
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so hillfolk, for your setup, is the spray pattern more of a jet or is it an atomized cone? I've been researching the DIY water/meth injection systems and am under the assumption that a cone shaped spray pattern would be best.
it actually sprays out the sides in 4 streams,i let them aim at the walls of the intake pipe to breakup the fluid more
its atomized somewhat,but since its being drawn into the turbo,that finishes the job nicely
(http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/1743/hpim0835ow4.jpg)
that must be a *** to add oil if you dont have a funnel
the price you pay to go fast
besides.less oil in the pan,less windage,etc :lol: :lol: :lol:
yea i carry a funnel,but it doesnt really use more than a qt every 3k,and i have an open crankcase breather
actually,you can pull up on the boost tube slightly to give more room
You don't even need a pump if you're cunning :wink:
If you plumb a boost line in to your reservoir you can use that pressure to push the water in to the intake through the nozzle, since the intake isn't under pressure. The reservoir obviously has to be sealed so your boost doesn't escape!
You can use a solenoid and pressure switch to control the water flow, and the nozzle size will determine the flow rate relative to boost pressure.
A VW tuner in the UK thought this up a few years ago and it worked really well 8)
Mikki x
find a book called turbochargers by hugh mcinnes ,published by hp books
it has tons of turbo /water injection/ ic/install setups
my new setup(when i put on an ic ) will be like this,sorta
but ill use a metal can that can hold 40 psi of boost
run a boost reference line to the tank,but ill keep the washer pump,and put the jet after the ic
dont put water injection thru an ic,itll puddle out
since the boost line equalizes the psi in the tank,and boost is pushing against the jet,,when you hit the washer pump,you should get flow of fluid thru the jet
and from some of my turbo books ive been reading,it may give a little more power than putting it in preturbo
its fuzzy,i scanned it from the book,maybe you can see whats goin on though
(http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/1341/hpim01256gc.jpg)
this one is the "m+w water injection for dieselfarm tractors"
no wonder nothin runs like a deere
(http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/7256/hpim01285cx.jpg)
yea the blue washer fluid is best
my turbo book says "theres no advantage in running more than a 50-50 mix of water meth"
i noticed not much of a power increase with straight water
washer fluid is best
if you use a switch like me remember to let off the mix in between shifts because if you dont shift fast,it sort of runs away and wants to rev to the moon
i describe the water injection as a "controlled runaway"
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Water injection should always be done post turbo if you value your turbo's compressor wheel.
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I always wondered if the water would erode the compressor wheel. Seems like anything hitting an aluminum wheel spinning @ 80,000+ RPM might do a little damage. How much is a replacement wheel? The one for my 7.3 Powerstroke is around $99.