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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: Kneale Brownson on August 10, 2007, 11:59:58 am
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I was just checking under the hood to try to figure out why my A/C isn't cooling--looking to see that the fans turn on when the A/C switch is pushed, etc., and I was looking at the ribbed belt, watching it turn the compressor, when I noticed that there is an easily observed wobble to the rim of the crankshaft pulley.
Is that a concern? Should I be attempting to tighten the crankshaft bolt or anything? Or is it time to replace the belt and get everything right? The car's records (it's new to me) show the belt was done a couple years ago at a VW shop and it's not gone anything like 60k miles since.
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do a search for "crankshaft pully wobble"
This happens on the AAZ motor. There is much to learn. Cheers Dan
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To answer your initial question: "YES... this is a concern" !! If it's what we think it is the crankshaft keyway and/or key are worn... when it finally snaps the pistons and the valves will intersect with a loud and potentially expensive noise.
There's lots of discussion here on what it is and what needs to be done, but I would recommend it be investigated at your earliest convenience.
Vince
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Thanks, guys.
I'm going to get the car on my hoist and check out the fasteners for the pulley.
The service records I have include the last two timing belts, one late in 05 and the other several years earlier. Neither includes a charge for the crankshaft bolt.
I take it from the description of belt change in the Bentley that it's not necessary to remove the crankshaft bolt. Is my interpretation correct?
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Yup, no reason to touch the crankshaft bolt to do the timing belt... in fact, you tend to want to leave it alone since it's a stretch bolt and needs to be replaced if it is loosened.
Let us know what you find when you pull the bolt and pulley... fingers crossed it's not the usual mangled keyway !!!
Vince
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The original bolt was upgraded to the TDI style one, which has a dimple standing out in the middle of it.
You can feel if it's the new bolt by just touching it with your finger.
I don't know if it should be upgraded or not, perhaps wiser heads will advise.
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I won't be able to get to it for a couple days. The hoist is covered with lumber I'm painting to use as trim for a roofing job I have to do on a rental.
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I was out of town with my 93 golf a few yrs back and noticed a wobble in my crankshaft pulley too. I figured it will last until I get home and in the shop. I was only a few km's from home when the bolt broke, hence the timing belt came off and I blew the engine. This happened at over 100km/hr. Toasted the engine.
Hopefully you'll get it repaired, and yes do let us know what ya find.
:)
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The outer edge of the ribbed belt pulley (arrow) wobbles, as does the smaller pulley for the water and power steering pumps.
(http://www.pbase.com/kneale_brownson/image/84035954.jpg)
Is the bolt in the center the newer "dimpled" TDI version?
All four of the smaller pulley bolts are very tight.
So I presume now I need to basically do a timing belt replacement to get down to the point I can check the keyway? Or will I be able to do that with just the outer pulley removed?
Is there supposed to be a cover over this part of the engine assembly?
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1 Yes the bolt actually preceeds TDI but it is the good one
2Yes
3 yes no
4 No
You will have to remove the front v-belt pully and serpentine pully to get to the timing belt toothed pully. The centre bolt with the tit on the end is 19mm 12pt and will probably be really really tight. If you get this far you will probably want to replace it in any case. Which is a good thing as it is difficult to get a wrench on it without damaging the teeth. The end of the crankshaft with the keyway usually ends up wearing on the outer edge as well as the keyway. This wear is what causes the wobble, so the front of the crank needs to be squared off in the process of repair. See the pics here http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2771&highlight=crank
You should also replace the ribbed pully(harmonic damper) with the new style same part # as old one but with aluminum outer rim. All this is pretty much just for the sake of information as chances are that your keyway and crank nose are worn. It happens to all of the AAZ motors just a matter of when , not the end of the world but a lot of work to fix. A number of the vendors on this forum can help you with crank repair. Cheers Dan
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Thanks, Dan.
I had shuddered my way through your report in the link earlier in response to other replies that I should look on the forum.
So, even if my damage isn't as bad as what your photos show, it eventually will get that way? Guess I'll just have to strip it down and see.
Is there some tool for keeping the crank from turning like the Audi crank holders? Does the 2065A tool shown in the Bentley to hold the camshaft do that job? Of course, the Audi crank bolts are 350 ft lb., not 66 ft. lb + a quarter turn.
What part numbers do I want for the new bolt, damper pulley, etc.?
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I had exactly the same problem on my AHU. At some point the bolt has worked loose, allowing the sprocket to bash up the end of the crank. Rather than fix it the PO just put it back together :(
I tried filing the end of the crank flat (measuring with verniers), putting it all back together and spinning on the starter. I tried 12 cycles of this (in a day) and got nowhere. Eventually had to take the crank out to get it faced up properly on a lathe. They mended the keyway too, for £35, but in taking it to bits I discovered that all the bearings (rods and mains) were shot, in what was sold to me as an 80k miles engine :evil:
So all in it's costing about £200 to fix, with machining, bearings, gaskets etc. I get the crank back next week.
Good luck, Mikki x
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Kneale the pix in the post are not mine. I benefited from Quicktd's info when I recently had to do the same job on my engine. I am not aware of a tool to hold the crank, my understanding is that some guys pull the oil pan and wedge the crank journals with a 2x4 or some such thing. The torque on the bolt at 66Ft lbs + 1/4 turn is quite a bit. My torque wrench goes way the hell up when doing the 1/4 turn , wouldn't be surprised if it is in the same range as the Audi ultimately.
Mikki it is sometimes a shock to find things like this but the alternative is worse. Can be major damage if it causes the timing belt to jump and damage the head. Cheers Dan
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An impact gun will get the crank bolt off, but to put it on you will need to counterhold it somehow.
I've used a prybar jammed into the timing hole into a flywheel tooth along with the car in gear with the brakes on to hold it. And a big ass breaker bar with a long steel pipe extension.
Anyone tried one of these Metalnerd tools?
http://www.metalnerd.com/images/products/cat05/mnyankp.jpg
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That's similar to the tool I've made for mine.
I used a piece of 1.5" right angle bar, and cut out a hole for the center of the sprocket, and 3 of the bolt holes in the pulley. I use the water pump pulley socket-head bolts to hold the bar on to the sprocket. Rotate the crank until the bar hits something (subframe for me), and then take the bolt out with a long breaker bar, and a 19mm double-hex socket.
I'd have preferred to make something that had all four bolt holes in it, but that would have been harder to do, and I didn't have any material spare to do it. 3 bolts seems to be enough though.
No pics cos my engine is in bits and it's raining out, but if anyone really wants to see I could go get a couple.
Mikki x
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So a flat plate of, maybe, 3/8 steel with holes drilled into it for the pulley holes and the crank bolt, with a long lever welded onto it could serve as a crank holder to let me get the bolt out?
(http://www.pbase.com/kneale_brownson/image/84373907.jpg)
Maybe use some grade 8 bolts from the local bolt bin type outlet?
When I got the vibration damper and PS/waterpump pulley off, I found that the back of the damper pulley had worn on the timing belt cover.
(http://www.pbase.com/kneale_brownson/image/84373965.jpg)
The white spot at the bottom right of the pix is where the pulley assembly wobbled enough to wear through the cover there. I presume the timing belt pulley was doing the wobbling, carrying the rest of the stuff along with it??? Anyone got a cover without holes worn into it?
I'll see if I can't make up something to hold the crank so I can put adequate pressure on the bolt it to break it loose. I really don't like the thought of using an impact. I have a 3/4-inch-drive CP that I'm sure could do the job, but I just can't bring myself to use it that way. Can't believe VW doesn't have a crank holder tool like they use for Audis. Here's my breaker-looser set-up for getting the crank bolt out of Audis:
(http://www.pbase.com/kneale_brownson/image/22500158.jpg)
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BTW, is N 905 771 01 the correct part number for the crankshaft bolt with the little tit?
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That's the same number as I have. It looks like you have the later style bolt already.
This is my crank-holding tool:
(http://www.polov8.co.uk/images/tdi/sprockettool.JPG)
I would have preferred to have it on all four bolts, but I didn't have any big enough material spare. Three worked fine though, and I happen to have three nice bolts from the water pump pulley :wink: Relative to your picture this bar would be between the driveshaft where the green sticker is, and the wishbone. I can't show you it in the car cos the engine is on the floor and the crank in my kitchen :(
The crank is now mended though, and the bearings and gaskets are here too, so I should be able to get it back together this weekend, ready to go in the car in a couple of weeks.
Mikki
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Thanks, Mikki. So, by placing the bar between the suspension parts, you can use the same placement for either removing or installing the crankshaft bolt, eh? I take it the waterpump bolts are shorter. That's an option, but I'll probably hunt down some bolts to use specifically with the tool.
I hope I don't end up with the engine on the floor all torn apart so I can send the crankshaft off somewhere for repairs.
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(http://www.pbase.com/kneale_brownson/image/84373974.jpg)
Is the mating face of the vibration damper with the toothed belt pulley supposed to be completely flat? The outer perimeter of the mating face on mine has a pattern like the teeth of the toothed belt pulley worn into it. That edge is rounded off slightly.
(http://www.pbase.com/kneale_brownson/image/84397126.jpg)
Is this likely the wobble I could see in the two pulley edges, or will I still find the end of the crank damaged when I get the toothed belt pulley off?
I presume I should replace the vibration damper. Is this assembly of damper and waterpump/steering pump pulley two separate units or do they come together?
(http://www.pbase.com/kneale_brownson/image/84397051.jpg)
They don't pry apart easily. Should I press the outer pulley off?
What's my best source for getting a new vibration damper and crankshaft bolt?
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Wow! That must have been some wobble to eat the belt cover like that!
I think the marks you can see on the pulley are from the timing belt moving about, allowing it to eat away at the alloy pulley. I think this a symptom rather than the cause of the problem.
The pas pulley does come off the main damper-pulley. It's quite a tight fit, but if you lever it gently with a screwdriver or prybar it should come off. If the rubber of the damper is in good condition I don't see why you would need to replace it, but I'd be interested to know what others think about this?
For my crank-holdy-tool the water pump bolts are a wee bit short, but do fine. If you are going to buy some specially I'd say M8x20 would probably be fine, depending how this your bar will be.
One think I did to test if it was the crank or the pulley was take the pas pulley off the main one and bolt that to the sprocket (using the water pump pulley bolts again). It still wobbled.
Another idea - take the cam out so all the valves are closed, and take the glow plugs out, then you can spin the engine on the starter (with the t-belt off) and watch what the sprocket does. Mine had about 0.5mm of run out on it, and was clearly visible.
Mikki x
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Here's my crank pulley locker:
(http://www.pbase.com/kneale_brownson/image/84417080.jpg)
It worked great (along with a 2-foot breaker bar and two feet of pipe):
(http://www.pbase.com/kneale_brownson/image/84417147.jpg)
I got some M8X125X25 bolts. I haven't gotten around to it yet, but I think I can put the bolt back in loose and use a three-arm puller on the green monster to pull the pulley off the crank. Then I'll know what I'm facing.
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Nice work!
The sprocket should just drop off now, especially with the weight of the green monster on it. It's probably bad news if you need a puller on it :(
Keep us posted.
I can't put mine back together now, cos yesterday I discovered the intermediate shaft bearing is also toast, to the point where the shaft can be rattled by hand :x Off to the machine shop again on Monday...
Mikki x
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Quick TD, in the cranshaft nose repair referenced by Dan the Big Block Chebby Man, suggested use of a puller.
Sorry to hear about your additional troubles, Mikki
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The pulley came off with just a little tug from my three-arm puller. Except for some grunge on the mating surface with the crankshaft end and around the interior perimeter of the pulley, it looks almost like new:
(http://www.pbase.com/kneale_brownson/image/84435900.jpg)
The crank itself looks almost, but not quite, as good:
(http://www.pbase.com/kneale_brownson/image/84435968.jpg)
Both the pulley key and the crank keyway are crisp. They're the same width (8 mm).
The outer edges of the keyway, slightly discolored, feel slightly raised from the face of the crankshaft end. I can just catch a fingernail there. I notice the pulley key has grooves cut into either side. Was there once a raised lip on the crankshaft that fit into the grooves in the pulley?
The timing belt looks to be in good shape. Its edges are smooth. I'm thinking my wobble was in the vibration damper. Its mating face with the pulley is rounded slightly.
ETKA shows a spacer of sorts between the pulley and the vibration damper (12 in the image below). But that part isn't listed in the descriptions of parts and numbers. Should that part be there? It wasn't on mine.
(http://www.vagcat.com/p/B123/105150.png)
There is evidence of oil oozing out past the seal around the crankshaft. Lots of grunge on the lower front of the engine and wetness right at the shaft itself. So I probably should replace that seal now too, right?
Anyway, I'm now tempted to get a new crankshaft bolt, reinstall my pulley, get a new vibration damper and go from there.
BTW, I've not found it possible with gentle prying (bars on each side) to separate the power steering/waterpump pulley from the vibration damper. I'm fearful of damaging the belt lip of the ps/wp pulley. I've tried applying some penetrating oil, and will see later today if that's helped. Any way I can use my shop press to separate these two?
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Makes sense that the cover moved some. One of the three fasteners wasn't there.
Anybody got a lower cover to sell?
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A pair of Wonderbars and a bit of aggressive prying separated the vibration damper from the waterpump/power steering pump pulley after they'd been soaking several hours with some ATF/Acetone as a penetrating fluid. The smaller pulley has an awful lot of rust on it.
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I received my new vibration damper from Autohausaz, and the power steering/waterpump pulley slides easily into it. I have a pair of oil seals to replace the oozing ones on the crankshaft and on the camshaft, but I can't seem to get the camshaft pulley off.
As reported elsewhere, I made this to allow untorquing the camshaft bolt:
(http://www.pbase.com/kneale_brownson/image/84828606.jpg)
and now have the bolt loose, but no way to break the pulley loose. I've been advised to smack it, and have done so repeatedly with a heavy rubber mallet, but it refuses to loosen. Can't hit it from the back because of the rear timing belt cover on the 1994 1.9 TD engine.
Any suggestions for loosening? There's no room for a three-arm puller and my injection pump pulley puller won't grab the webbing on the crankshaft pulley because it sits too close to the front of the engine.
BTW, the small hole in the plate goes over the injection pump locker tool, the one next to it provides clearance for the injection pump pulley bolt, the large one provides the opening for the camshaft pulley bolt and integral washer and the bolt head fits into the pulley webbing holes and allows about a tooth's worth of movement before locking it up for untorquing the bolt.
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To get the cam sprocket off requires some percussive maintenance. if you place a drift (maybe brass maybe not) against the sheetmetal behind the sprocket and apply a bit of pressure to take up the slack then give it a sharp whack with a 2lb ball peen the sprocket will most likely fly across the room. maybe cover it with a towel to prevent this. It helps to get the drift as parallel to the cam centerline as possible to transfer the force efficiently. I hope this answers the question I think you were asking. Cheers Dan
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Thanks, Bigblock. I held a double-soft-faced hammer head against the rear cover and gave the hammer a good smack with the big rubber mallet and the pulley gave up its grip on the camshaft. Hardly displaced the cover at all.
I kept the bolt on the pulley, so it didn't go flying across the room :lol:
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There should be a small hole (5mm) in the metal belt cover towards the front of the cam cover, which lines up with the back of the pulley. Put a punch through here and tap it with a hammer. The pulley should come straight off.
Mikki x
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Thanks, Mikki. I see a mark on the back of the pulley, now that it's off, that looks like someone had done that before. Wondered what that hole was in the cover for. Now we all know.