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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Mikeyworks on May 04, 2004, 06:40:44 pm
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I'm trying to save this thread from the other forum, so here's the bulk of it:
I'm going to look at a Caddy with a completed TD swap. The current owner want's it gone from his yard.
He says it runs, but also says it has a mysterious "knock from the bottom end." I am going in a couple hours to go look at it.
Any clues on what the knock may be?
After I get back I will try to better describe the "knock."
Regardless of repair needed, I will likely get it since he's only asking $400.
Mikey
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Mike Hitchings/Mikeyworks
Here's another piece of info to help in the long-range diagnosis.
The owner told me today that the last time the PO had it in for service, the shop put "regular oil" in it instead of the normal Amsoil that had been used. My thought is that the sudden change in oil may have causes a bit of unusual happenings in the bottom end.
By the way, here's the soon to be Mikeyworks BioTruck!!!
(http://www28.brinkster.com/mikeyworks/sideview.jpg)
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Dr. Diesel
sweet truck! I guess it's just the pic that makes it look bent?
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BlackTieTD
i want a caddy someday.. parts truck :P
what's that poor corrado doing sitting there?
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Mikeyworks
Dr. Diesel,
Yeah, it looks bent b/c of the photo stitch program that I used. It kinda put a fish-eye effect on it. The truck is freakin' great. It has a nice sport interior with really comfy seats. The bed has a wonderful bedliner (spray in, rhinoliner or such), a couple spots of rust on the body (nothing that I can't fix).
The other cars around it are going into various other projects, none of which are mine, yet. Believe me, nothing in this yard is going to waste.
Mikey
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Hey, who's the little passenger? :)
Amazing how much better images look with the lighter color scheme. (Or maybe it's just my laptop? ;) ) The fonts look bigger too? Very nice improvements - thanks admins!!
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I just see a red X... :wink:
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Never mind, it loaded after I posted :roll:
Nice looking truck! Definately get it
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The co-pilot is my 22 mo. old daughter. She saw the truck and said (no kidding) Diesel W Truck Daddy!!!! It made my heart melt. I have to get it.
Any additional thoughts on the knock?
Mikey
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hi, your sure its not a fuel knock , a sticky or stuck injector can make some pretty loud poundings . If you havn't done so yet, lossen of the injector lines one by one to possibly give you a clue to whitch cylinder it is ,If the (cylinder cutout) test makes no difference theres obivously theres somthing wrong in the bottom end, but if one cylinder stops making noise when not getting fuel, pull that injector. :)
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Well, I bought the truck today!!!! For $400 is was a friggin' steal!!!!!
After only 5 minutes of work, I had it going too!!! I put a new battery in it (actually the one from my other rabbit with a full charge), topped off the fuel filter, topped off the injection pump (twice each) cranked it for about 20 seconds and it started right up. It stalls out once in a while, but that's easily attributed to the air in the fuel system at this point.
Well, after I had it started, I could hear the knocking sound. Help me with this one...it's a TD motor from an '86 Jetta. That means it's more than likely a hydraulic head. I can confirm this pretty easily, right?
If it's a hydraulic head, and the wrong oil was used, will that cause the valves to act up? I know that before it was parked (about a year ago) the owner had it serviced, the service loc. put in the wrong oil and acknowledged this. The owner thought it was no big deal. He drove it about 10 minutes to his house and parked it. He said it was making the knocking/tapping sound and didn't want to hurt the engine, nor did he want to bother with it anymore. I figured after a that short drive, the wrong oil would have had time to work into the hydro head and result in the tapping noise.
I am thinking of getting it home in a week or so (after travel) and doing a series of oil flushes. My fingers are crossed that this will solve the problem.
Any thoughts?
Thanks in advance as always.
Mikey
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I've had lifters go flat before and it does make a tap/knock sound. They are easy to replace.
Of all the diesel VWs I've had I have yet to have one with a bottom end problem. I'm guessing injectors, or as you point out, a lifter could do it. Keep tinkering and learning. You'll figure it out.
Great find though! I'm envious. 8)
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I HIGHLY doubt that changing oil would cause any internal engine damage. I'd look elsewhere.
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the wrong grade of oil can make a tired out hydraulic lifter sound MUCH worse. If in doubt, change them out. hehe
Grab yourself a length of 3/8 wooden dowl and use it as a listening stick. (or a mechanic's stethescope) Listen at each of the injector fuel unions, and down in the pocket where the injectors thread in. You can also hear inside the block too, lower down. This can help pinpoint noises. I've even listened to individual lifters by touching the stick near each lifter bore with the valve cover off. (messy job, have rags handy)
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Hey gang.
Thanks for the advice. Right now I am sidelined to light duty since I broke a bone in my foot and I am in the knee-high imobilizer boot!!! :x :evil:
I am going to start work this week on getting the noise resolved. How easy is changing out the lifters? How much are they likely to cost me? Should I replace all of them while I am in there?
Thanks again gang. I love this forum and this group. You folks are absolutely wonderful!!!!
Mikey
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around here, i can get trade price on a set of rebuilt lifters of about $10 cdn each. Installation is a breeze. You'd probably want a new cam seal and valvecover gasket to complete the job. The timing is disturbed, so you'd probably want to be set up to recheck injection timing with a dial indicator.
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Does it have hydrolic lifters?
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yes, it has hydraulic lifters.
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I played around with the truck this evening.
The sound seems to be coming from the #1 cylinder end of the engine (end closest to the timing belt...) It is still present during each cycle of the engine. It only knocks once per revolution.
I also noticed that it seems to be burning more oil than normal. The entire time I had it running...close to 5 minutes...it was burning pretty blue-white out the tail pipe.
It seems also to be pressurizing the cooling system as while it was warming up, it filled up the overflow bottle. Is this normal?
Is there any way to check the condition of the valves w/o undoing the timing? I don't have a dial indicator and I would hate to take this thing out of time since I know it runs now.
Any new thoughts?
Thanks as always gang.
Mikey
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once per cam rev, or once per crank rev?
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ooh, that's a good question...I will check tonight to see if I can figure that out.
I would guess that it was once per crank rev.
I think I may pull the oil pan tonight or Saturday to check the condition of the con-rods.
Mikey
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I got a Rabbit from a guy and it had a steady knock to it.
Ended up being a head gasket. The head was cracked too but he had an extra head in the back that fit.
I think it was an overheat.
The car now belongs to a friend of mine and runs smooth.
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Interesting....head gasket...it is pressurizing the coolant system. Water getting into the cylinder during the combustion cycle would create a pretty hefty knock.
I am just very hesitant to pull the head as that requires retiming the belt and engine...and I don't have a dial indicator. I guess I need to go visit the local VW shop in town.
Mike
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Well, with the day off today, and a steady rain falling...it was a perfect day for pulling parts off the TD Caddy engine to find the source of my engine noise.
I tried the injectors again, but nothing there...next step, the oil pan.
I drained the oil and dropped the pan. Once off, I looked in the pan and saw this:
(http://www.photodump.com/direct/Mikeyworks/P6110179.jpg)
OH $HIT!!!!!!
I crawled back under the engine, began cranking it around slowly by hand, checking each rod/bearing/crank interface, until I got cylinder #2 to BDC. I can freely move the endcap around on the crank. The brearing is literally GONE[/i].
Now, I am going to replace it, as well as the rest of the bearings while I am there, but I need procedure recommendations and confirmations on part numbers so I don't screw up anything else. How much should I replace while I am here? I'm going to have the Bentley by my side of course, but that's only as good as the reader. Y'all have done this before and may know some tricks.
Thanks in advance.
Mikey
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Ouch. Not nice. Doing rod bearings is a pretty easy and straightforward task, provided you mark the caps and rods so they don't get mixed up and their orientation doesn't get mixed up.
The drag is if the bearing disintegrated like that I'd want to be checking the crank for wear. or throwing in another (good) crank. You don't need to drop the engine to do this, but you do have to drop the gearbox/clutch.
Can you see any scoring on the crank's rod journal?
Drew
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The crank journals seem completely unharmed somehow. They are smooth, ungrooved, and unscathed.
The rod journals show some slight scars, but i am not sure if it is from this event. Regardless, they are protected from the bearing, so they should be inconsequential.
I am going to buy the parts I need in tonight I think...so if possible, I need a full account of what I should replace and the part numbers if possible. I will try to get them ordered and run down to Impex in the morning and get the parts.
Mikey
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If you're just doing the rod bearings, then you need a set of bearing shells of appropriate size (standard if there's never been any crank work done on the engine), gaskets (head, oil pan) and head bolts. If you're doing this job with the head on, skip the head gasket and bolts.
If the head is off it's a good time to replace the timing belt and tensioner, as well as the oil seals on the front of the engine if they look like they've been leaking. The three oil seals are the same, and the intermediate shaft cover has a green o-ring behind it that is prone to hardening over time (and leaking oil.) Follow your torque procedures in the Bentley for the rod bolts carefully, and don't forget to put the oil pump back in before you reinstall the oil pan... :)
Drew
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disassemble your oil pump for clean and inspection. maybe the gears are munched up.
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good suggestion Dr. D....It'll come off tonight along with the rest of the bearing caps to check them....since I'm going to replace all the bearings anyway.
Mikey
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Is this the part(s) I need? 056198451A (http://www.impexfap.com/partlist.cfm?subcategory=4248) (...pssst, the part number is a link to the Impex website).
I'll pull the pump tomorrow or Sunday and see what I get.
Mikey
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It'd be a good idea to check your oil clearances with plastigauge, too.
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Is this the part(s) I need? 056198451A (http://www.impexfap.com/partlist.cfm?subcategory=4248) (...pssst, the part number is a link to the Impex website).
I'll pull the pump tomorrow or Sunday and see what I get.
Mikey
That's a main bearing set. I thought you were replacing rod bearings? The impex serach engine doesn't seem to work for me - or, it may be that I haven't had enough coffee yet.
Just what are your plans for this motor? Is it in the car, or out of the car? Head on, or head off?
Drew
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Drew,
Maybe I'm confused on the terminolgy of main vs. rod bearings. I understand how rod bearings get their name, but where would the main bearings go? On the cam maybe?
As for the status of the car/engine. The engine is in the Caddy, completely connected. The head is on, the engine is timed correctly. Right now, the oil pan is off, the connecting rod end caps are loosened (I did this last night to check the rest of those bearings since #2 was toast). The oil pump is also off as I removed it to clean it out and remove all the metal parts from it.
For clarification, the bearings I need are the ones that go around the crankshaft. I believe they come in a 8 piece set. However, I have seen various different sizes. How do I verify which size I need? Micrometer the crank for size?
I want to make sure I get the right stuff so I can do this all the right way the first time.
Thanks,
Mikey
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I still need help.....please!!!!
Mikey
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The bearings at the ends of the rods are rod bearings. YOu're likely to need standard size bearings unless the crank has been machined previously. You can use the current bearings as a reference.
If you are trying to get the engine running with a minimal amount of work, then replace the rod bearings and close it up.
However, if you're looking for a reliable engine, I would remove it from the car, have the block inspected by a machine shop, the intermediate shaft bearings replaced, the crank inspected, and reassemble with new rings (hone only) or oversize pistons and rings (bore and hone) New mains and rod bearings would go in with the crank. If something happened to the engine to cause one of the rod bearings to disintegrate, chances are that there will be other problems waiting to bite you in the rear.
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Mikey,
Carefully read the entire engine overhaul section in your bentley. You will need inside and outside micrometers and plastigauge to do the job properly.
Briefely, you need to know the journal diameters to choose bearing thickness. You need to measure the bearing housing diameters of the rod big ends and the mains. You need to measure them for size and roundness. A rod bearing housing that is out of round will deform the bearing shell and very rapid wear could occur. After selecting bearing thickness, assemble and check for oil clearances with plastigauge. There needs to be a little space in there for the oil to provide a cushion. Dimensions are all in your bentley.
Let me repeat that word. B-E-N-T-L-E-Y. hehe 8)
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For some reason, when I postel last it did not take...so let me try this again.
I appreciate all the help and I apologize if I seemed hyper before. I am very anxious to get this truck back together and running. I want to make it my daily driver...for at least a while. I figure that in about a year or two I will take it back down to nothing and do a complete rebuild on the entire engine and truck. So I hope this will last for a while at least.
Right now the engine is in the truck, all wiring is attached, and the only thing keeping it from running at this point in time is the fact that there are now no bearings on the bottom end for the rod bearings. I would like to do this with minimal intrusion into the rest of the engine, so keep your fingers crossed for me.
Well, I hope to get under there tonight and measure the bearings, the rod ends, the crankshaft size, and all the rest to verify which size I need. I will use my trusty Bentley (I repeat, B-E-N-T-L-E-Y) and have it right right by my side the whole time.
I will be sure to keep you guys posted, and again, thanks for everything.
Mikey
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careful when you put the oil pan back on - I just changed my rod bearings and oil pump (was feeling good about that) and then stripped two bolts when puting the pan on - some of the screws mount into aluminum (was feeling not so good at that time) - it's on and doesn't leak though . sooner or later gotta get those two things fixed though.
I think that Bentley says 15 lbs of torque, 7 lbs. is more like it!
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Thanks for the advice....I will keep that in mind.
That said, I have another question, are the rod bolts stretch bolts?
I have heard they are, and need to confirm this so I can order them. If so, does anybody have a part number?
Thanks,
Mikey
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The rod bolts are identified as "torque angle" bolts in the parts catalogue. Are they strretch bolts? Probably. Do you need to replace them? Not in my experience. Torque them carefully following the procedure in the Bentley (25 lb-ft plus 90 degrees comes to mind, but don't take my word for it) and make sure (doubly damnned-sure) that you have the caps on straight, oriented correctly, and matched up to the correct rods - following the marks you placed on the caps and the rods before you removed the caps (right? :) )
Drew
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Drew,
Thanks for the reply.
I was thinking more about this today and if those are one-time-use stretch bolts, then when you do a bearing job, you would have to replace the con-rods. The bolts are integrated into the con-rods IIRC.
Have no fear, I marked the bearing caps and also photographed their orientation (not sexual orientation of course... :lol: ), plus they are still hanging on the bottom of the engine so nothing happens to them. I hope to order my parts tomorrow and have the engine running by Saturday.
I promise to keep you updated.
Thanks,
Mikey
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nothing in the Bentley recommends their replacement.
I recall having read in one of my Bentley's that JH (_or_ JH and PL) rod bolts should be used only once. The electric whiz-bang A2 Bentley makes no reference to it on the PL engine, so it may have been in the A1 Bentley for the JH engine. Certainly nothing about the diesel rod bolts for sure.
Another point of interest (or not) is that the parts catalogue lists two rod bolts, both pressed in, one torque angle, the other not, on the TD engine. The torque angle bolts should have a flanged nut, the non torque angle bolts have a straight nut, and a different torque spec. By 84 the bolts should be torque angle style, but check the A1 diesel Bentley to be sure.
Drew
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when in doubt, change 'em out.... with ARP. hehe
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when in doubt, change 'em out.... with ARP. hehe
Would those be the rod bolts for Ford 351 small block engines that are a "close" fit? :)
Drew
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when you change those bearings, you will see that the lower end of the rods (the bottom clamp that you remove) all have a letter or something all oriented the same way, so that will help out a little if you forget to mark one of them (as I did)
one other thing, when i bought new rod bearings they had holes in them (I think that they are for gassers), and the ones I pulled out didn't. I used them anyway and have had no problems, and I changed them about 2K ago
:)
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when you change those bearings, you will see that the lower end of the rods (the bottom clamp that you remove) all have a letter or something all oriented the same way, so that will help out a little if you forget to mark one of them (as I did)
There is a little "nib" or lug cast into the rod and a matching one on the rod cap to ensure correct orientation. The "nib" is supposed to be twoards the front side of the motor.
one other thing, when i bought new rod bearings they had holes in them (I think that they are for gassers), and the ones I pulled out didn't. I used them anyway and have had no problems, and I changed them about 2K ago
Some earlier turbo diesels had holes in the rod bearing and the rod to provide oil lubrication to the piston. The presence of a hole in the bearing doesn't really matter, however if there's a corresponding hole in the rod then you want to make sure that the replacement bearings have the hole!
Drew
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I used toyota celica rod bolts in mine. That's just because they were sitting on the shelf. I would suspect that another vw engine, perhaps G60, would be the same size as the TD's.