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Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI - Pumpe Duese TDI Engines => Topic started by: oldskool rich on July 02, 2008, 08:19:30 am
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ive cum across a 2.0 PD crank, does it have the same stroke as the 1.9?
will it fit in AAZ block?
it looked like the pistons are bigger, if they are can you bore out a 1.9 to 2.0?
8)
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does anyone know?
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I seriously doubt a PD crank would fit an AAZ block. A PD crank would have the gear for the oil pump on it. I think the only other cranks that would fit an AAZ block would be a 1Z or AHU.
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yes i know about those problems, ive got one in my 1Z just a bit of machine work 8)
i was mainly talking about stroke :roll:
please dont make me take my engine apart to find out :(
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You may have to do that as at least on this side of the pond, 2.0 PD cranks are elusive and I doubt anyone has attempted it yet here. Specs aren't hard to come by, but since the 2.0 PD crank came in the newer block design its hard for anyone to say. You may have to find out for yourself.
Joe
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just in case anyone else was wondering i found out that the crank is the same as a 1.9, put it in an old aaz block and its totaly the same, so that must meen the bore is bigger. so if you wanted a 2.0 VE then you just need the pd bottom end and bore it out.
i want to do this, if i was looking for 300bhp+ 2.0 VE then what block shud i be looking for? i dont mind using liners, just dont want it to twist wen i put the power down.
is it possible to put a VE pump and head on a PD block? if so which is best?
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There has been some discussion about putting a VE head on a PD block over on TDIClub. Look up a thread started by AtomicSushi. I sold him a PD-150 block and he was talking about putting an ALH head on it. I believe the PD-150 blocks also have significantly longer head bolts than the VE blocks. I don't know how the other PD blocks compare to the VE blocks. And you're right, the PDs have the same stroke as the VEs. Some (if not all) the "2.0" PDs are really 1.95 litres. VW took some liberties rounding up to 2.0.
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Don't the PD cranks have bigger rod-ends?
Brendan
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yes they do, thats why you need crank rods and pistons, then you need to machine the crank pully end to fit.
well worth it for an solid bottom end, only weakness then is the block twisting, and so thats why you need a PD block, cus its the only way to get over 230bhp without building a main girdle.
if im aiming for 300+ thats what i need to do.
btw how much is the most power anyones got out of a tdi? anyone know?
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Only PD 1.9L 130/150/160 are reinforced.
ALH head on PD bloc are bolt-on and vice versa, you have to change also the crank sensor wheel, front end crank seal housing and T-belt pulley.
The fuel system on PD engine have much more potential for HP, and to get 250bhp it's not an easy task.
Mechanical VE with a so-so pump.... around 180-200bhp max.
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just a thort, is there any way you can run a PD head and injection system without an ecu or any complex wiring?
what about the 2.0 PD, are they reinforced?
surly you can do a load of head work on ALH head, then crank up the fuel, maybe 12/13mm pp in an M pump, ball bearing turbo, charge cooled, meth/water injection. i recon 300bhp cant be impossible.
what makes the PD so gud? the valves are the same size, is it just the extra fuel pressure?
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just a thort, is there any way you can run a PD head and injection system without an ecu or any complex wiring?
what about the 2.0 PD, are they reinforced?
surly you can do a load of head work on ALH head, then crank up the fuel, maybe 12/13mm pp in an M pump, ball bearing turbo, charge cooled, meth/water injection. i recon 300bhp cant be impossible.
what makes the PD so gud? the valves are the same size, is it just the extra fuel pressure?
30'000 psi is the main reason. that and the fact that the CR is reduced considerably because of the injection pressures. the power potential is very high! since the injectors are electronic, there is no real way of making them inject 'manually'. however if you had the money/time/expertise, i would believe it possible to make the engine run in a state not much unlike our IDI's and mTDI's. you would need to get a distributor type system to run the injectors. so instead of sparking a plug, it injects fuel. i think that is the closest you can get to a mechanical system, but comparing that method to the current method, there is a lot lacking. the fact that the PD motor can inject something like 100 times per second or even greater? pre-injection, main injection, and post injection? very sophisticated to say the least!
now if you want to run a PD 'as-is' talk to Tintin. it can be made run in a 'basic' mode meaning the car doesn't compensate for mass airflow, air temp, fuel temp, and other little goodies that will make the engine run with great efficiency.
if there is a way to get a 2.0 head on your VE that would rule!!! make sure it is the DOHC version though :twisted:
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It's not too difficult to install ECU and wiring for the PD motor.
PD have the same Comp. Ratio than VE.
Not multi injection on PD unit, only two stage like VE motor, these injector open only one time, but with much more pressure.
Look at the old Detroit Diesel 2 stroke engine, It's mechanical injector pump... héhéhé!!
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o i thought i remember seeing the multi injection... maybe thats only on the common rail :(
but PD is still superior because one leak on a common rail and you're stranded :lol:
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Not really. CR is superior, which is why VW is switching to it. Even higher injection pressures, and multiple injection events based on load/rpm. PD is severely limited in the RPM department- probably more than the VE-pump cars are, and if you want big HP numbers, you need the RPM's.
Brendan
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i believe for reliability PD is the way to go. vw invested way too much money into the PD motor. the main reason they switched was due to the new emissions crap that required an extra injector to injecto fuel to burn off the carbon in the particulate filter.
i guess if there was a way of making the CR engine leak proof, then it does have quite a bit of potential. not having to worry about the camshaft being worn down is just one bonus...
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PD has 3 pumps and a common rail:
-the lift pump (it works without it, but it affects performance)
-a low pressure pump (~400Bar i think) feeding a common rail that feeds the
-PD "injectors" are the final pump (1800~2000Bar)
so if you look closely at the PD system, it is a overpriced CR system with a few tweaks.
the common rail is built into the head on the PD system, the only difference is that the CR system has one pumping stage less than the PD, even the ECU could be the same.
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PD in tank pump = 10-12psi, the pump feeding the injector deliver around 50 psi idle and regulated 109psi a 1500 to redline.
I do not think that the sealing (o-ring) on the PD injector in the rail can support the high pressure of the CR pump.
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so how can a VE head be made to produce as much bhp?
if they rev better then, thats a good start
VE pumps can be made to run about 25000psi, is that not enough? sumone on the IDI section told me that fuel pressure doesnt make you go any faster, does it?
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Maybee with 14mm head and stock nozzle.... PD motor produre 200-220BHP with stock 0.180mm nozzle with very little smoke.
Is necessary to know that the pressure also increases with the rpm and/or load.
I agree that PD motor It's not a high rev motor, I have one, and past 4000rpm the power start to fall down very much, and at 4500 it's really the time to shift up another gear, and VE have a good power untill 5000rpm. But the fact is that both engine have the peak power around 3700-3800rpm and the power start to fall down past this rpm, it is only that the PD power drops more quickly.
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I believe the steepness of the power curve depends more on the electronics than in the technology itself.
I wasn't saying that PD could be converted to CR, I was only stating that it already has a common rail feeding the PD units, the only difference is another pumping stage.
a VE doing more than 300hp? sure, its a jetta on a Performance Diesel magazine I have laying around.... somewhere
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Well I have seem too many camshaft problems with PD engine so I wont be bothered with them. The cam lobes and followers wear down FAST and what you have then.... A hole in a follower and a non running engine.
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page 190 of DieselPower magazine, vol4 nº1 (January 2008):
12mm head, vnt17 hybrid, kerma injectors (they don't say witch), port and polish done to the head, Nitrous injection, large FMIC, 2,5" mufflerrectomy, upsolute tuning.
35psi of max boost, and it still makes a huge cloud even on nitrous :O
the numbers are: 350hp, 550 lb-ft at the crank
it took the owner 6 years, several thousand dollars and a lot of bent connecting rods ;)
he owns a tuning company with a dyno...
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Well that is very debatable. Do a search at tdiclub and youll see few points. But in conclusion my wiev about that is it is possible to get that on a very optimistic dyno with weird correction factors for a dynorun. The engine wont last very long with that power and most importantly that turbo.
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oldskool rich asked if it was possible to build a VE to develop more than 300bhp, he wants it to do drag runs... well I believe you can build it to develop way more than 300bhp, as it will only need to last a few runs.
in my view tdi's reliability ends at around 200bhp depending on the driving style.
making drag runs... a few minutes per engine is more than enough in reliability terms
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There are alot of 300hp projects going at the moment. 300 hp isnt some magical barrior that you just cant reach. My aim is even more but I dont curently have a chasis worthy of the engine so I'm building a basic 200+ daily driver from my golf and when I find an Audi coupe Quattro preferably without the engine then I'll continnue with the monster engine.
200hp reliably is easy as hell. Just dont use tiny winy turbo and limit the torque down low with the program and it will last a long time.
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200hp reliably is easy as hell. Just dont use tiny winy turbo and limit the torque down low with the program and it will last a long time.
exactly what I meant ;)
ps: if I could convert a audi coupe to diesel legally, it would be my dream car
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thanx for everyones input, i hav been known to dabble in drag racing but this engine is actualy for a T25 crew cab. most important thing is reliablity also i want 300bhp :roll: not asking much realy. there must be a set up that can take it. ive got a 2.0 pd 6 speed box already, that should take the power. was gona go T28 turbo in the intrest of reliability also got PD crank, rods and pistons. if anyone can recomend any other parts that wud be good. still havent decided on a block yet.
this is gona be my ultimate daily for life hopfully. it ticks all the boxes. gona chuck my caddy and stick with this i think :D
anyone know what sort of quater mile a T25 cud hit with an engine like that?
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depends on the weight, frontal area and drag coefficient, and a few other stuff.
tell us those parameters, and it may be possible to calculate your time on the quarter.
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Well youre going to have a hard time finding a Garrett capable of giving you the 2.5bar of boost reliably. If you go with single turbo then I would recomend a large VNT like GT3571V or similar in size. It will still be slow on the spoolup. Or for a WG unit HX/HE35 can deliver the preasure needed but are on the slow side too. If money isnt a conser then Holset HE221W is your choise. Its alot smaler than HX35 but it is designed for high preasure. I mean high since the actuator it comes with from the factory starts to crack open at 2bar or so. It was designed to withstand 2-3bar of boost :twisted:
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I suggest you to use an ECU or top-notch bench calibrated pump if you want 200-220HP.
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ECU and a good remapper does the trick ;)