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General Information => FAQ/Tech Tips/Please Read First => Topic started by: DVST8R on April 19, 2007, 01:17:54 am

Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: DVST8R on April 19, 2007, 01:17:54 am: Now let me preface this by saying that this is not my work, it was lifted off the voertex and was posted by: TurboDieselTech So give the credit there. Here is a link to the post http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3190912

but this is what it says incase the link goes bad:

Quicker acceleration and better mileage... Change the injection timing advance curve...

This CAN be done on the car without removing the injection pump. On the side of the pump facing the front of the car, there's a round plate with two screws. This is where the advance mechanism lives. Before you begin, go to the dealer and get the seal kit for the advance piston housing. It'll consist of two large green o-rings, several smaller ones and an e-clip. Cost is about $5.

Loosen the cover, using a T30 Torx bit. Now you are going to remove the screws and cover. Be careful as there is a rather large spring behind the cover, as well as some spacer shims. Once the cover is off, you should find two shims between the spring and cover, and if you remove the spring, there will be one more shim. Take all of them out and look at them. Take the thickest one and set it aside... you won't be needing it. Now, smear some vaseline on both ends of the spring and stick a thin shim to each end. Insert the spring back in and put the cover back on, using a new o-ring. You must have a shim on each side of the spring, otherwise the spring will "machine" the aluminum cover and advance piston, filling your pump with fine metal filings... thus destroying the pump and injectors. Take a ride and feel the throttle response!

For those of you that have access to parts for these pumps (new or used), you can get even better throttle response and power by changing the advance spring too... Just replace the spring currently in your pump with a "lime green" colored spring. This spring has the softest spring rate and allows the pump to advance the timing MUCH sooner, with more overall advance. These springs are commonly found in early rabbits (pre 80) and Vanagon diesel pumps. Color codes from softest spring rate to hardest is as follows... Green, Red, yellow, silver, and blue. The hardest spring rates will give the LEAST timing advance.
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: malone on April 19, 2007, 10:35:53 am: Kick ass!
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: foxracer1 on April 19, 2007, 05:24:03 pm: I'm in the market for a green spring if any one has one!
haha

Thats some good info nice work.
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: foxracer1 on April 19, 2007, 05:48:21 pm: I just looked at the pump i have apart and it GREEN! So now i must go tear the one on the car apart.

Did we ever figure out if machineing the cover out would benefit any? I believe fspgtd had a thread about it a while back.
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: MaxHedrm on April 19, 2007, 07:52:46 pm: If removing a shim does, I would assume that machining the cover would have the same effect.
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: foxracer1 on April 19, 2007, 09:57:18 pm: fspgtd was talking about machining the cover where the piston would bottom out. Not where the spring rides. He was trying to achieve more overall advance not earlier advance.

But i will try this green spring removew a shim mod this weekend
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: nkb on April 20, 2007, 04:19:01 am: this work with 1.9s too right? i mean it should??? im a lucky guy with a blue spring
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: AdAm84 on April 20, 2007, 09:09:53 am: Nice! I think i might try this one. Sounds a little more simple than the governer mod.
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: Laurentian on April 29, 2007, 03:11:53 pm: So if I understood correctly this is for a 1.6D and not 1.6TD?
I just looked at my 1.6D pump and it does have the cover
with the two torx screws.
Let me know!
Thanks!!
Hugh
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: DVST8R on April 29, 2007, 04:09:48 pm: Quote from: "Laurentian"
So if I understood correctly this is for a 1.6D and not 1.6TD?

1.5D, 1.6D, 1.6TD, 1.7D, 1.7TD, 1.9D, 1.9TD, 2.4D, 2.4TD, and probably even the early cummins VE pumps. :wink:
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: Benjamin on April 29, 2007, 04:53:33 pm: i think this only can be done good with the right IP internal pressure!
though i cant say much about it becouse my knowledge and english is not good enough for it.
anyway, i think its not so simple to have the best timing set up without a dyno and monitoring

Greetz, Benjamin
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: jtanguay on April 29, 2007, 05:13:21 pm: does anyone have a source for these green springs?
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: jimfoo on April 29, 2007, 08:52:58 pm: Of course, if you do those mods, do you still want to change the initial advance, or will that advance your timing too much, and how do you know?
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: 84Q on May 12, 2007, 06:18:29 pm: i just went out and did the mod (on my '84 quantum), and the car is now slower. so....? it has the silver spring, but shouldn't removing the largest washer still have had a positive effect? nothing ever seems to go smoothly with this car...but i love it nonetheless.
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: saurkraut on May 14, 2007, 08:33:12 am: There seems to be a general consensus that more advance is always good. When I temporarly used non-TD injectors (which essentially gave me more advance) in my 1.6TD, I noticed a decrease in top end power too.

So by doing this spring mod, you might be putting yourself out in the long grass and actually decrease your HP.
Title: Mod
Post by: FineFrank on June 05, 2007, 03:13:09 pm: Okay, a couple questions, sure to expose my ignorance.

Does this mod make the cold start function useless?

When timing the pump during a TB change, do I need to reinstall the shim?

Would pulling the cs knob ourt all the way accomplish the same thing?

How do you believe that mileage will be affected?

BTW- did the mod, got a bit more power, but more noise, too.

Thanks
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: foxracer1 on June 05, 2007, 05:07:43 pm: No to all of those. It just allows the pump to advance faster and a little more.
Title: mod
Post by: FineFrank on June 05, 2007, 05:50:37 pm: Okay, follow up question....

Before the mod, I could feel resistance when I pulled the cs knob . After the mod that resistance is gone. It seems intuitive that this mod has removed my cold start advance capability. Again, I'm ignernt-help me understand.
Thanks.
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: saurkraut on June 06, 2007, 09:05:36 am: Would some one please do a befor and after quantitative performance test of this "mod" and see if it does any good?

Like end speed over a measured distance.

I have a place that I can check to see if stuff I changed does any good every time. Its a slight uphill that begins where a 35 MPH zone ends, to a big white mail box next to the 55MPH sign, about 1/8 mile down the road. I nail the go pedal at the 45 sign, run it through the gears until I get to the big white mail box. As I pass it, I look at speed, boost and EGT. Tragically, I'm going a little over the posted speed at that point, so I really have to check six befor I nail it, and listen very carefully to the radar detector as well during the "test".

When I put the 135 bar injectors in my TD, I noticed a significant speed loss over my test strip. So thats why I'm really suspicious about this "mod".

Louder is not necessarily faster.
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: gldgti on June 14, 2007, 06:49:04 am: just did it on my 1.5 n/a

took me 10 minutes.

im not sure that theres any more noise, but certainly it wants to rev more - once it got over 3000 just wants to keep revving where before it was a little hesitant.

i think it could benefit from a little more advance too.... :-D
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: rallydiesel on June 15, 2007, 05:19:07 pm: I just went to do this mod and found there was no shim between the cover and the spring :? . I guess someone already did it before me. The spring is mostly green but the very end has some blue on it.

I am now awaiting the ARP studs so I can have some boostage fun.
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: jimfoo on June 15, 2007, 06:56:14 pm: Quote from: "rallydiesel"
I just went to do this mod and found there was no shim between the cover and the spring :? . I guess someone already did it before me. The spring is mostly green but the very end has some blue on it.

I am now awaiting the ARP studs so I can have some boostage fun.

I hope you put something between the spring and cover as it sounds like otherwise the spring will start making little metal shavings.
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: Black Smokin' Diesel on June 24, 2007, 05:16:38 pm: I remove the cover from my spare TD pump and foud the spring/shims out. The spring is half blue, half green... so what strenght is this spring :?

(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k18/idkf1/TD/IMG_3734.jpg)
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: subsonic on June 25, 2007, 10:46:51 am: that almost looks like heat treating.
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: rallydiesel on June 25, 2007, 02:09:23 pm: Quote from: Black Smokin' Diesel
I remove the cover from my spare TD pump and foud the spring/shims out. The spring is half blue, half green... so what strenght is this spring :?

(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k18/idkf1/TD/IMG_3734.jpg)

Mine is the same. :?:
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: HarryMann on June 27, 2007, 07:36:22 pm: This whole thread so far sounds a bit inconclusive... don't think i shall be messing with mine yet :cry:

I imagine it depends a lot on the pump, the engine state, the timing advance you're already using, and a lot more besides.
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: Black Smokin' Diesel on June 30, 2007, 04:43:23 pm: Alright I did the mod a few hours ago and went for a ride. At first I thought it didn't do anything, especially in city driving. Once I got on the highway, I noticed the engine had a bit more go in the highr RPM range (3000+).

I think the results would be more noticeable if I had used a green spring but the only two I had were blue (or blue/green as above). There were three thin shims so I removed one of them, hence the minimal improvement. I can't comment about fuel mileage but I gotta fill her up tonight, well see if it changes anything.
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: ODwyerPW on July 05, 2007, 12:08:48 am: black smokin diesel,

any change in your mileage? any more smoke?
Title: Re: mod
Post by: hillfolk'r on July 19, 2007, 11:08:31 pm: Quote from: "FineFrank"
Okay, follow up question....

Before the mod, I could feel resistance when I pulled the cs knob . After the mod that resistance is gone. It seems intuitive that this mod has removed my cold start advance capability. Again, I'm ignernt-help me understand.
Thanks.

ever had that pressed in pin in the back of the advance piston come loose where the cold start cam rides on???
i wondered why my car had so much part throttle "pinging"
and pulling out the cs knob "felt wierd"
lucky that there was enough metal left to repeen the pin back in
i didnt notice any power increase or decrease when that happened
id maybe try there and remove that cold start assy to see if that pin mighta came out..........
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: carrizog60 on July 26, 2007, 04:24:22 pm: so, after all that time as anyone tested this and measured the gains?
worth to do?
none/minimal risks?
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: Black Smokin' Diesel on July 27, 2007, 05:30:51 pm: Quote from: "ODwyerPW"
black smokin diesel,

any change in your mileage? any more smoke?

Sorry about the late response :lol: Nope, absolutely no change in mileage and smoke.
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: Black Smokin' Diesel on July 27, 2007, 05:32:46 pm: Quote from: "carrizog60"
so, after all that time as anyone tested this and measured the gains?
worth to do?
none/minimal risks?

The only real application I can see is if you can bore the cover to allow more advance in the higher RPM range. From what I've gathered, timing advance is lacking when you go over 5500rpm, so not much power is available
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: carrizog60 on July 29, 2007, 05:02:40 am: i am not planning rev that high,past 5500 but a faster advance would be good.
worth to do the schim removal trick?
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: Cordoba1.9 on August 26, 2007, 06:29:26 pm: my english is not so good.. aaaaaand..
can someone post pics step by step for this procedure?
thanks in advance..
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: Smkin85Turbo on January 09, 2008, 07:51:18 pm: I tried to do this mod today and when I went dealer and they could not get the part. I went to a european auto parts place and they could not get the part. Does any one know where they could get the part online?

Is there any more consensus that this mod increase fuel mileage?
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: rallydiesel on January 09, 2008, 08:47:18 pm: Tapping the internal pressure adjustment pin into the body of the pump would be better if your pump is worn out. Or a better fix would be a new transfer rotor assembly.
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: Smkin85Turbo on January 09, 2008, 09:37:20 pm: Quote from: "rallydiesel"
Tapping the internal pressure adjustment pin into the body of the pump would be better if your pump is worn out. Or a better fix would be a new transfer rotor assembly.

Any more info on how to do this?
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: Vincent Waldon on January 09, 2008, 10:26:45 pm: Quote from: "Smkin85Turbo"

Any more info on how to do this?

Yup... search for "internal pump pressure" here and www.vwdieselparts.com and you'll find tons.. how to measure, how to adjust, what to adjust to, why you need to adjust, etc... great pictures as well.
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: rabbitman on March 13, 2008, 03:34:35 pm: Ok, I adjusted my pump pressure from 35psi to 43.5psi @1000rpm and it pinged too much so I retarded the timing. Smoke level went down, power is the same, or slightly more. I think my mileage went from 36 to 40? Still testing so I'll have more coming.
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: zukgod1 on March 14, 2008, 11:40:03 am: On some of our pumps we have the 12v solenoid that energizes @ a specified RPM or speed (anyone know what that is?) so if we were to energize it @ start up with key on power then do this mod would that be feasible?

Here's why I ask. I did this mod when I rebuild my pump, not ever driving the car before gives me no reference point. I have a rpm range when the IP delivers less fuel (or advance) and once past that point it hauls ass.
I dont have a tach so I cant give those #'s like I would like to do.
It pulls hard up to 20 psi then stays right there as the RPM's increase until what ever RPM it is when it takes off again and pulls up to 35 psi no problem. I let off as it reaches 30 psi new engine and all.

So I guess what I reachin for here is it feels like it advances up to a point then hold and advances more after a certain RPM is reached. I do not have my solenoid energized with keyed power and want to but I wanted to get some education before I did to see if I was heading down the correct path..?
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: jimfoo on March 14, 2008, 11:59:03 am: Quote from: "zukgod1"
On some of our pumps we have the 12v solenoid that energizes @ a specified RPM or speed (anyone know what that is?) so if we were to energize it @ start up with key on power then do this mod would that be feasible?

Here's why I ask. I did this mod when I rebuild my pump, not ever driving the car before gives me no reference point. I have a rpm range when the IP delivers less fuel (or advance) and once past that point it hauls ass.
I dont have a tach so I cant give those #'s like I would like to do.
It pulls hard up to 20 psi then stays right there as the RPM's increase until what ever RPM it is when it takes off again and pulls up to 35 psi no problem. I let off as it reaches 30 psi new engine and all.

So I guess what I reachin for here is it feels like it advances up to a point then hold and advances more after a certain RPM is reached. I do not have my solenoid energized with keyed power and want to but I wanted to get some education before I did to see if I was heading down the correct path..?

See the 3rd post down. http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=12856
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: zukgod1 on March 14, 2008, 12:19:02 pm: Quote from: "jimfoo"

See the 3rd post down. http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=12856

So it's a specific temp not a RPM?
And load sensing...?
So if energized at start up the advance will operate as it would in a pump without the ALFB, or the "load sensitive start of delivery with deactivation feature". maybe?
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: jimfoo on March 14, 2008, 12:26:26 pm: No temp, it depends on load. Just that once the engine warms up, it won't matter as far as HC. Generally, it is advised to just leave the terminal connected to power all the time.
Quote
So if energized at start up the advance will operate as it would in a pump without the ALFB, or the "load sensitive start of delivery with deactivation feature". maybe?

Yes.
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: rabbitman on March 14, 2008, 09:45:19 pm: Got some more numbers, I hooked a 1 gallon jug up for the fuel tank, it sits on the floor next to me so I can watch the fuel disappear, kinda depressing. :cry: Anyways, normal driving like 55-60mph uses 1 quart per 10 miles,(40mpg), I did one test going 45mph one direction 'till a quart was gone then I turned and went the way I came at 45mph 'till another quart was gone. Total for that test, 25.6 miles, works out to just over 50mpg.
Next I wanna see if going slow (less drag) caused the swell mileage or if it was the lower rpms. So I'll go 45mph in fourth gear instead of fifth and see what happens. 45mph in 5th is 1800rpms, in 4th it should be about 2200. BTW, this is a waste of fuel, :oops: but it's fun! :twisted:
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: rabbitman on March 18, 2008, 03:30:06 am: Well, going 45 in 4th gear, 2320rpm, got me 'bout 10.5 miles per quart. That makes me think speed is not the main factor, but rpms :idea: So I'm thinkin' lower rpms is the ticket, or a turbo would help mileage at higher rpm, maybe. Plus the extra HPs would be nice......

My next "trick" will be to put a weaker spring in the timing advance, I have red one layin' around, hopefully the one in the pump is a lot stronger than red, if not I'll just remove a shim.
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: zukgod1 on March 18, 2008, 11:53:25 pm: So your running a NA engine correct?

130 bar injectors?
What is your timing set at?

I have a fresh 1.6 TD with a K24 with 3" turbo back.
injectors are huge but set @ 139 bar
Timing set at about .95 and I have a 10mm pump.

It doesn't seem to matter much how I drive it (still new only 2 tanks) I'm getting a solid 40 mph.
Also I'm running an ACH trans with a 3.67 R&P and a .75 fifth gear.
I run @ 75 both ways.

I'm wanting to set the timing @ 1.0mm and get some smaller injectors (stock) to see if that will help bump me up a tad.

I'm also thinking if I fix the cruise I will get better, I have a heavy foot, love seing the smoke and hearing the turbo wind up.
Title: 1.6 IDI Timing Advance Mod.
Post by: rabbitman on March 19, 2008, 03:51:22 am: yup, 1.6NA, 130bar injectors with maybe 16,000 miles on 'em, my timing was at .97 or .98...can't remember, and I fixed my internal IP pressure and that made the timing advance much more effective and then it rattled way to much so I retarded the timing as much as possible w/o it shaking. That made it run quieter, less smoke :cry: but the power stayed about the same. My tranny is a FN, 3.89 final and .71 5th.
Maybe unhook your LDA hose and see what your mileage does, of course, then you would have an eco diesel :roll: How big of improvement was your 10mm plunger over the 9mm? I'm building an IP and wanna get more power w/o hurtin' mileage, and I'm thinkin' of getting a 10mm pump.