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Engine Specific Info and Questions => mTDI Mechanical TDI Conversions => Topic started by: urmas on July 21, 2015, 08:23:49 am

Title: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on July 21, 2015, 08:23:49 am
Parts are slowly piling up, no time to put them on though.

(http://i.imgur.com/bqvGZPZ.jpg)

Got also correct manifolds as I am using 1.6td manifolds at this moment. To make matters worse the 1.6 exhaust manifold has both outside runners cooked to a half of the original diameter with oil residue, that probably is one of the reasons current performance is so low. These will go on the engine before the LR pump.

(http://i.imgur.com/HJQEkUO.jpg)
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on July 22, 2015, 03:11:13 am
Much needed seat upgrade:

(http://i.imgur.com/oJt4u3z.jpg)
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on August 03, 2015, 12:49:28 am
Currently in the process of swapping manifolds.

After a days work new manifolds are on, just need to connect downpipe and intake plumbing.

Manifolds look nice once you give them a lil cleaning:

(http://i.imgur.com/UviZMKO.jpg)

Pic of the dark side of the moon (i dont have a lift)

(http://i.imgur.com/hu9t8wb.jpg)
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on August 05, 2015, 03:55:32 am
Manifold swap is finished, and theres a slight power increase in mid rpms, aswell as turbo spools a litle faster, which is good, but top end stays the same, as is boost pressure (i have to get quite high in rpms to see 6 psi).

Im fearing that im loosing boost pressure somewhere and the most obvious place for an old k24 would be the wastegate.

Still, if a leak would be the case, wouldnt there be lots of smoke?
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: libbydiesel on August 05, 2015, 10:38:09 am
The K24 wastegate can stick open or the wastegate valve seat very commonly gets quite corroded.  You can return it to full function by removing it and using valve lapping paste to hand lap the wastegate valve into the seat.  Removing the wastegate can be a real pain.  I use a bit and a 6pt box wrench.  Heat helps.   
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on August 10, 2015, 03:38:27 am
So far ive removed the turbo only to find the wastegate securing screws seized to hell. I also have to remove the hot side to gain access to one of the screws. Way more difficult than i thought it will be.
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: libbydiesel on August 22, 2015, 02:17:57 am
When I said removing the wastegate can be a real pain I meant it.  I've done it on quite a few k24 and k14 turbos and know exactly what you are going through. 
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on September 08, 2015, 04:56:39 am
Well, the long and painstaking process is over.

Everything was seized and cooked in to hell on the turbo - the hot side had to be broken free with a 2 metres long bar, wastgate screws had to be cut off, the valve inside the wastegate was seized and had to be hammered out. Everything has been cleaned and assembled now, and the car is driveable again. No improvement whatsoever though.

The valve seat had some considerable damage, but my diy grinding compounds could not remove any material from the valve or its seat. After grinding both are quite clean though.

Im almost at the point I could slap on the LR pump now, but I cant decide if I should add the intercooler first - stock mk3 td intercooler i got for dirt cheap.
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on December 15, 2015, 03:36:03 pm
Finally found some time and started switching pumps. Progress so far, after two evenings:

(http://i.imgur.com/cgJoA58.jpg)

Yesterday i tore everything apart, including a small piece from the cam (wrong thing to use as block off plate, and a small chip from the blocking keyway broke off). Today switched most things from the JR pump to the LR pump and managed to fit it, aswell as the fuel lines and sprocket hub. Tomorrow probably gonna finish whats left, put cambelt on, time it and give it a try.

Any ideas what timing setting to start with? Got the tool, so should it be a breeze.
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on December 16, 2015, 02:44:37 pm
Could not time the engine tonight...after two hours of trying again and again i quit.

Despite cam position looking alright, the engine locks up.

Need to buy that damn tool.
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on December 16, 2015, 03:58:08 pm
Cam position locked with a spanner + gap measure bit for keeping down clearances

(http://i.imgur.com/zHHhVwC.jpg)

Crank position

(http://i.imgur.com/EIuC0Mw.jpg)

And still no go. What i do see in the picture, is the cam could be turned counter clockwise a few degrees.

I cant see that with my naked eye though.
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: vanbcguy on December 16, 2015, 04:40:13 pm
Your cam and crank timing are close enough that you shouldn't have interference though yeah it certainly is out a bit. Are you sure you aren't just fighting compression?

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Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: 410 on December 16, 2015, 07:57:04 pm
Might be a silly question but are you removing the wrench before you turn it over?  I thought it's worth mentioning because I've done it myself so its happened at least once. :P
Can you take a pic of the crank sprocket?  That might not be the right timing mark on the flywheel. 
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on December 17, 2015, 12:24:31 am
Are you sure you aren't just fighting compression?

Don't think its compression, its as almost it stops with a click - metal to metal contact.

Yes, i am removing the wrench. I have used this mark on the flywheel on several occasions, so its kinda "proven".

If i don't get get any progress with the toll, ill pull the pass side wheel and remove the pulley above it to check it.

Ill see if i there's someone with the tool local and borrow it today.
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: libbydiesel on December 17, 2015, 12:53:08 am
That cam slot looks terrible.  It looks like the part in the right side of the pic is worn and the part on the left is the original machined surface.  That original machined surface should be inline with the head/lock and in the pic it is not.  If my interpretation is correct it looks like the cam is rotated CW in the pic or opposite the normal running direction as the pic is of the back of the cam.  I don't know that it's far enough off to cause the piston and valves to collide, but I wouldn't be happy with that setting. 
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on December 17, 2015, 04:44:55 am
The right part has been broken off unfortunately. I used a spanner to hold it down while loosening the cam nut and the spanner slid out and loaded up just that corner of the cam slot which broke then off. I fished it out and theres not much of a damage, just the surface that holds a block plate is less now and the cam lock tool is needed to lock it precisely.

Found the culprit:

I am using one non standard screw for securing the pump and it hit the pulley of the pump.

(http://i.imgur.com/sTMQGaC.jpg)

Here are visible metal shavings on the tip of the screw which is too long.

(http://i.imgur.com/d0CXnRp.jpg)

Funny thing is, the pump hub moves in axial direction when its turned. That is why the sprocket turned a bit and then locked up - it moved closer to the screw.

I dont think its supposed to do that? Probably means the pump is worn out.
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on December 17, 2015, 03:48:26 pm
Got an improvised tool and set the cam in place. The cam was off by a tooth.

Also found out  the pulley screws are hitting the pump housing (upper rectangular part), so i shortened those and put washers underneath so they don't protrude much.

Timed the pump at 1.40 mm in a way i understand it should be done, but im not sure i have the pump firing for 1st cylinder when it should.

Cranked it quite for some time but failed to get fuel at the injectors, that tends to happen when the pump has been dry too long, gonna drag it arround tomorrow, that will fill her up for sure  ;D

At this point its just timing and the accelerator cable fabing, and i hope it doesn't grenade when it fires up  ;D
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: 410 on December 17, 2015, 10:11:29 pm
Sounds like you're close!  You could prime the pump by removing the "out" bolt and filling the pump manually.  Reinstall the out bolt and crack a couple hard lines at the injectors and it should light up. 
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on December 18, 2015, 01:05:33 pm
Success!

After dragging it around there was still no sign of life, so i cracked injection lines open and air came hissing out with fuel / tiny bubble mix. A few crank / open lines cycles and the system was bled and the engine came to life. Stable idle, no smoke clouds, just after a few seconds i started noticing bluish tone when looking toward light, thats probably an indication the timing could be advanced a bit, as its at 1.40 before i got it running.

Gonna  do another measurement after i fab a throttle cable bracket from the old pump bracket and probably advance a bit more. Would love to have a EGT probe installed by this moment though.
Title: Urms mTDI build
Post by: MurielSiny on January 14, 2016, 05:06:06 am
O nice, i love 262s. I have both these variants in the stash, but different kits. I will be looking forward to this build.
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on January 20, 2016, 04:07:54 am
Backed down to 1.25 timing, engine sounds a bit smoother, the car runs great, apart from not heating up much, but i figure thats due to the low weight it has to carry arround.

Next to do:

put on a lower engine cover (covering the bottom of engine bay), i have laying arround from a Mk3, and an IC from a G60 Corrado.
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on February 04, 2016, 01:34:30 am
Not much has been done to tha car yet, the things i mentioned in the previous post are still waiting for me to free up time. Ignition switch died, so i swapped that and im trying to track down a metallic tick which i suspect the injectors of (after LR pump install noise got louder). I swapped out nr. 2 injector but the noise remains, so probably nr. 3 is the culprit. Im trying to find it by ear (put a screwdriver against the injector), but for most of the time they sound all the same.
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on February 05, 2016, 01:37:14 am
Got my hands on a different 3rd injector at the breakers and installed it.

The sound got different and the behaviour of it changed aswell, its also less ocurring. Probably safe to say, the noise comes from worn out 3rd injectors. At this point its very tempting to just replace it with a non electronic injector because i have one good spare now, but im not sure what to do with the fuel line at the moment.
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: vanbcguy on February 05, 2016, 01:52:17 am
No real reason to take the electronic one out and replace it with a standard one. All it has is an extra coil of wire in the top, doesn't cost anything extra to get them serviced or anything.

I'd highly recommend sending your injectors in to get new nozzles installed and to have them calibrated. Mech TDIs are more sensitive to nozzle imbalances than the electronic ones as there's no compensation without the ECU. If you have a bad nozzle that's streaming at a piston it can do some pretty serious damage and you've already demonstrated that the injectors you have aren't the happiest.

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Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on February 05, 2016, 03:02:43 am
Youre definately right. I will ask arround for estimates, as the last thing i want to do, is damage an engine which i consider being low mileage.
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on March 11, 2016, 07:38:51 am
It wouldnt be me if I would follow a sensible advice  ;D

Yesterday i swapped out the injector - i carefully bent the third line in place, but the fourth had to be slightly relocated aswell.

Engine is much smoother, also on startups below +3 C it started on three cylinders and stayed that way for a few seconds. Glad this problem is out of the way now.

At some point i will send the injectors to get tested tho as increasing horsepower without calibrating them would be too silly even for me.
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on March 24, 2016, 03:45:09 am
Clutch has started slipping inevitably, so im looking for a CTN or ASD box to replace the 020 4T i have at the moment. That will also cure the 3rd and 4th gear problems i have currently.

I am going to use a flywheel and clutch assembly from a G60 Corrado which i have already.
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on April 04, 2016, 08:15:25 am
First weekend results: tore down everything and managed to install the B4 shifter.

This is quite a bigger job than i thought it would be. There's also a problem of torn steering rack boot and stuck clutch cylinders.

Tried to wrestle the replacement B3 pedal cluster in place but the steering column is in the way and its riveted (!) to the chassis for whatever reason. Was too tired yesterday to continue.

Progress so far:

(http://i.imgur.com/lSHbegn.jpg)

B4 shifter installed
(http://i.imgur.com/M6V3Rlk.jpg)
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on May 03, 2016, 12:25:02 am
Most things to do in the engine bay are finished, i even managed to do a test drive, even though theres no carpet and dash in the car. May 4th is Independence day over here so probably ill finish it tomorrow.

Clutch bleed is such a pain!
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: vanbcguy on May 03, 2016, 06:50:26 pm
Easiest way I've seen to do the clutch is the "oil can method" - basically a pressure bleed from the slave cylinder pushing back to the master.

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Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: vic003 on June 11, 2016, 06:28:30 pm
Steering column isn't riveted but has auto breaking screw (the head of the screw break when tighten with torque). You need to use a hammer and a chisel (? Burin en français)

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Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: LabradorSteak on September 09, 2016, 12:53:50 am
I like your seats...where did you get them?  I need some for another project I am working on.

Thanks, Matt.
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on December 27, 2016, 02:07:14 am
Seats are from a Mk3. IIRC these are called VAG Sport seats and are not that seldom. Got them for 30 eur just because i wanted some kind of bucket seats and did not want to wait around for some Mk3 GTi Edition seats to show up, which are rare, but sweet as hell.

Meanwhile the car is running great, apart from a smell of fuel for the last month, which wasnt an obstacle to get it MOT'ed this month. Yesterday, took a look at the IJ pump and theres a drip every 5 seconds from the rear part of the pump. Most of the time it is the large circular seal which fails, but from what i see, theres a seal arround a circular thingy into which the timing hole screw goes into and it has a rubber seal arround it, which seems to be leaking. Ill look at it again, with a USB endoscope before ordering a pump gasket kit this evening.
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on December 27, 2016, 03:29:36 am
One another thing which bothers me, is vibration. I dont know if its fixable but after ive sat in an AAZ swapped Mk2, i cant let go. The AAZ engined car had alot less vibration than my AFN. IIRC it used stock Mk2 diesel motor mounts. I use Corrado G60 subframe and mounts, and the vibration is quite unpleasant, especially, when cold. Though, two of the mounts are hydraulic. (front and pass side)

I have also tried swapping a front mount from a B3 2.0, and the vibration was exactly the same.

Is really the TDi engine vibrating more than a TD?

Last thing i can think of, is using a Mk3 pass mount but that means i have to change the subframe aswell, which involves a different host of problems.
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: vic003 on December 27, 2016, 03:57:13 am
Hi!
You cannot do anything for vibrations !
I'm running the same engine in my mk2 with stock TD engine mounts and vibrations are here!
TD engines are a lot smoother!

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Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: libbydiesel on December 28, 2016, 01:38:15 pm
All else equal, the TDI engines give more noise and more vibration than the older IDI engines.  Most people are very surprised by this fact due to how smooth and quiet the stock TDI vehicles are.  It is ALL due to different bolt-on parts, e.g. hydro mounts, engine cover, hood pad, belly pan, etc, etc...
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: vanbcguy on December 30, 2016, 03:18:51 am
That, and the ECU programming. The electronic TDI shines in idle smoothness as it can set ignition timing particularly retarded plus it has per-cylinder compensation for the injectors. Both are much easier to achieve electronically.

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Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: vic003 on December 30, 2016, 05:23:38 am
That, and the ECU programming. The electronic TDI shines in idle smoothness as it can set ignition timing particularly retarded plus it has per-cylinder compensation for the injectors. Both are much easier to achieve electronically.

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Yeah and in mechanical all this things are impossible, injectors must be very good balanced in a diesel shop.
But it's hard to find a good diesel shop nowadays!

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Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: libbydiesel on January 01, 2017, 08:49:26 pm
I do not believe that the VE tdi's adjust timing per injector.  The ECU uses only the #3 injector as feedback reference. 
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: vanbcguy on January 02, 2017, 01:12:43 am
I do not believe that the VE tdi's adjust timing per injector.  The ECU uses only the #3 injector as feedback reference.
There is definitely injector compensation on all the VEs.

The #3 sensor is used for timing control but the crank speed sensor is used to measure the difference in engine speed as each individual cylinder fires. The ECU then stores a value for 1/2/4 and uses the QA in the pump to equalize fuel delivery at low engine speeds.

The VE ECUs, even the early ones, have misfire detection too.

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Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: libbydiesel on January 02, 2017, 05:55:44 pm
Interesting.  Thanks for that. 
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on May 18, 2018, 01:44:24 am
Finally freed up some time to swap the K24 for a T2. Unfortunately the result is not what id hoped for - the clock still shows the same 9 psi boost, although lag has almost disapeared and the butt dyno says things are better now.

So probably its time to look at the exhaust system, which is stock diameter, has mk3 flame arrester at the front and a stock silencer at the rear. Ill try removing the silencer first and see what happens.
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on May 09, 2019, 01:57:51 am
Cool Excited to watch your build. How did you decide between 6 wide and 7 wide?

Do you mean wheel width?
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: Dino on June 14, 2019, 02:49:58 pm
Hello.
Nice car! Was it a standart 70hp 1.6 TD Golf?
Unfortunately I can't understand everything.

Clutch has started slipping inevitably, so im looking for a CTN or ASD box to replace the 020 4T i have at the moment. That will also cure the 3rd and 4th gear problems i have currently.

I am going to use a flywheel and clutch assembly from a G60 Corrado which i have already.

Where are those gearbox from?
What about gear ratio? Shorter than TDI gearbox?

All else equal, the TDI engines give more noise and more vibration than the older IDI engines.  Most people are very surprised by this fact due to how smooth and quiet the stock TDI vehicles are.  It is ALL due to different bolt-on parts, e.g. hydro mounts, engine cover, hood pad, belly pan, etc, etc...

I didn't know about hydro mounts. Can they be fitted on older VWs?
Thank you all.
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on January 27, 2020, 03:53:21 am
The car was a gasoline 1.3 carb (pierburg 2E3) with a catalytic converter, as odd as it might be, they existed and its a separate model from the 1.3 carbed ones with a name 1.3 KAT.

It had a clutch from a regular 1.6td which has 64 ps iirc.

CTN box, which i got is a TDi box from a B4 Passat, it is mostly paired with the same AFN engine i have.
There are numerous links on the interwebs with VW gear ratios, lookup the boxes by code you are interested in, for example:

https://www.zelek.com/diagram_charts/diagramlist.htm

My subframe cannot be equipped with a Mk3 TDi hydro mount, i think i will get a Mk3 subframe, cut the mount off of it and weld it onto my Mk2 subframe.
A local guy i know did that to his Corrado TDi conversion without much hassle.
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: fatmobile on January 28, 2020, 02:01:36 am
Doesn't the whole MK3 subframe bolt right onto the MK2 body?

I'm working on the same project.
 Starting withe the 020  trany
until I have the engine running good,
 then focus on installing the 02J trany and shift box from a MK3 TDI..
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on January 28, 2020, 02:50:06 am
I'm not sure whether it bolts in.

I had forgot that im running on temporary summer wheels...for 6 years.

Here's a test fiting of some Borbet R's i got a good deal on.

(https://i.imgur.com/fEyVAnF.jpg)
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: ORCoaster on January 29, 2020, 12:30:47 am
Hope you saved enough coin to be able to afford some tires on those rims.  Could be a bit of stiff ride otherwise.
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on January 29, 2020, 01:29:52 am
These rims will receive 185/55 tires from the current ones which can be seen in pics earlier in the thread  ;D
Title: Re: Urms mTDI build
Post by: urmas on February 09, 2020, 06:24:38 am
Finished front brake upgrade, heres a video of the process:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS_6PhYFtTM