VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: hillfolk'r on April 23, 2006, 03:30:54 am
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here they are,modified by total seal from stock rings. since they dont make them for tdi's in their stock,,they said the vw rings were excellent quality,just as good as they could do or better,,,,,they phosphate coated them too,for initial break in. they will do 1.6's also,,it cost me 115 for 5 ring sets to be modified,and a can of quickseat dry lube,and ring land lube,nice,, blowby is minimal,,since i added balance tube its even better!!i dont get any oil out the breather, heck i dont even see smoke/steam,,it smells bad still,though,,, its vented to atmosphere,, i hope these pics are ok,,theylooked okto me:)
(http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/9084/hpim01707ei.jpg)
(http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/4949/hpim01756ng.jpg)
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I,ve got the total seal's complete gapless "ring set" in my engine(AAZ) yet to run.
PN#S9205 20,hopefully they will hold up :roll:,Along with crane cam's gasser valve springs, they are almost double the pressure of stock dual diesel springs,gotta keep them valves closed with all that boost,Fingers crossed :lol:
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dude, if you do the break in right,and use their lube,,its golden!!! you will be diggin the no blowby thing,,,,you feel air out of the breather, but its more like a gentle breeze(aah,,,) than an ol'puffer, ,ive never had a valve spring issue,but the compression is awesome,,,i cant really "bump" the key,,itll start instead :cry: yea right :D
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Very cool pics... however, let's please use the FAQ section only for posting answers to frequently asked questions. Moved to TDI engine performance enhancement section.
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ok sorry jake,,,i think every time i redo an engine ever again for myself,ill use total seal even on my lawnmower! :shock:
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Are those total seal top rings or middle rings shown there, by the way?
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Are those total seal top rings or middle rings shown there, by the way?
top compressionring is the gapless one
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where can I get some of these rings???!!! If I were to bore my block .50 what size rings should I order??? how much $$$ am I looking at?
ok I found the site (not hard) http://www.totalseal.com/
lots of sizes... which ones should I get? Much different between the diamond/gold total seal rings?
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I wonder what is the better setup with total seal?
Gapless top groove that Hillfolk'r has or gapless second groove that I have,Anyone?
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I wonder what is the better setup with total seal?
Gapless top groove that Hillfolk'r has or gapless second groove that I have,Anyone?
they told me that the top gapless is "the latest/greatest",you dont run a topand bottom gapless,only one or the other,,,just run them,,yo,,they need your finished bore size,to make them,,,,i got a tdi,,i foung oem rings for about 20 a set,i bought 5 sets,1 for an extra,in case if breakage/damage,,,then i sent them to totalseal,and they charged me 115 to do 5 sets,and that included the dry film borelube,and ring land lube,sofor less than rings from the dealer,you got a way cool setup,,i found geotze rings is the oem supplier,dont chince on rings,they are chrome steel,not junk cast crap,,,,get the good stuff
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call them,,i talked w/kevin in sales,over a year ago,i sent him a stock set out of my engine that were used,after he examined them,he said "can you get oem rings?",the reason i had stock rings modified was cause he said they(totalseal) didnt make rings as nice as oem vw ,,mine was the gunea pig ,,r+d took a few months, he was mainly worried about chipping the crome off when machining would occur,but all went well,,,and im very pleased, they were way cool about the whole thing,even though i was bugging them once a week :wink:
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Why cant you run two gapless rings? I gotta get some of these rings here, I keep hearing they are the ***.
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The top Gapless ring that you have is custom made to fit from what I've read on the site as with all gapless top rings only.
The gapless "2nd" ring set I have is made specifically for the AAZ/and mabye tdi as well,I;m not sure if the IZ/AHU uses the same rings.Anyhow the ringset are available in STD,20 over.Just plop them in.You can also get conventional ringset from them too(ie. not gapless).
Just look at the catalog in thier website,you'll see.
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i know you would think 2 gapless setup would be better,,,they told me,but i forgot the reason why,,it may have been something about no gas pressure to force the 2nd ring against the wall, if the top one is gapless...someday,illhave to rig up a leakdown tester to it,,a dude at work has a garden tractor he uses for pulling events,has them(total seal) in there for 3 or 4 seasons,and gets like 2-4 percent leakdown......andy2 up above,you got it!!!the wierd thing was the total seal guy was real impressed with the stock rings and said"we cant make em any better"...he got freaked out when i told him engine specs,,when i said 35 psi or more of boost,,,,thats when he said "we gotta make you a gapless top set"i know i got way less blowby..and its gotta give power,,and you cant bump the key,it starts so easy :wink:
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How are you making out with the total seal rings?? Any oil control issues and have you done a compression test yet??
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I've had excellent sucess with the total seal ringset in my AAZ and would recomend using them for a stock engine rebuild.No oil comsumption,no blowby when used in an all out preformance engine.OEM rings were garbage compared to these lots of blowby,and oil being forced out at high HP levels.
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do you have the gapless top or 2nd ring
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Gapless 2nd ring for me
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and you say that total seal makes them off the shelf
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Yes for the 1.9 IDI anyways.Probably the same rings for the TDI and they porbably have a ring set for the 1.6 also I would think.
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I've had excellent sucess with the total seal ringset in my AAZ and would recomend using them for a stock engine rebuild.No oil comsumption,no blowby when used in an all out preformance engine.OEM rings were garbage compared to these lots of blowby,and oil being forced out at high HP levels.
Just for the fairness of it all. I wouldn't make a comment like that about stock rings unless you have the data to back it up. Correctly installed and OEM quality, in my case, Goetze rings are VERY VERY good and have proven less problems then many running total seals in VR6's, 2.0's and other VW engines out there. Look through the archives in many of the sites... and these were installed by good, reputable engine rebuilders and some just DIY rebuilds....upgrades, etc.
From personal experience, I chose OEM Goetze rings vs. the total seals because of problems I've personally heard about excessive blowby even with gapless as well as accellerated wear of the bore itself. I personally teated the OE rings from the 1z when I rebuilt it last year. It had 129k on it and it was WELL within factory specs when it came to ring wear and they could have been reused. Its a matter of personal preference. I haven't had any problems with mine on the "hot rodded" mTDI motor as of yet and don't anticipate it.
I won't make claims either way, but if the data was there...then go for it. If not, don't say OEM is junk unless you can back it up. There are also several "OEM" suppliers out there... Goetze (german), Cofap (Brazil), etc. to name two of the big ones... Just some food for thought...
Joe
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Well this was only based on my own experience with comparing the rings but I would have to stand behind it I've seen the difference with my own eyes.My first AAZ setup always had blowby with new OS pistons,rings(Goetze) and obviously the cylinder bores machined to spec.Those rings sealed properly but just did'nt cut it at high hp levels.The total seal rings went in after as a figured I had nothing to lose but hardcore blow by.The cyl bores were machined 2 thou over spec to clean up 90% of the damage and the total seal rings went in.I now have no blowby or hardly the odd drip of oil coming out my open CCV system.Before with the conventional rings I had a water bottle on the dump hose that I had to empty quite often due to the large anmount oil being forced out of the engine at 150+hp.I should have stated that the OEM rings were only garbage when compared to the total seal rings in my case!I think Hilfolk'r has had a very compareable experience with OEM vs total seal rings too?
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To each his own...
I can tell you on three of the motors I've rebuilt, diesels...my own and others. That NONE of the blow by you mentioned occurred with the OEM's in that kind of an amount. Something seems a bit fishy there.
Also... what kind of hp levels are you talking about? what kind of oil were you using? Have dyno results, etc. All of that would play into making claims like that...
I make no claims myself because I don't have that kind of data to back it up...
Again...to each his own...
Also, most of your total seal rings are modified OEM rings by total seal themselves. You can ask hillfolk this and probably just about anyone else. I called doing research on them for the mTDI build last year and they don't make a specific ring for the TDI itself. In the conversation with their tech, they also discussed how robust the OE rings were compared to many others that they have seen out there...though, they did advise to stay away from Cofap (brazil) units from some bad experiences with aircooleds and rings they did for "race" motors using cofap units as the basis for the gapless modification. You send in your rings and they modify them. In the end, they are modified OEM rings with the gap eliminated...
Joe
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Interesting info,all I can say is that they have worked very well for me.Both engines used kendall 15w40 non synthetic oil :oops: and the total seal ringed engine produced 161 whp on the dyno.The OEM ringed engine was not dynoed but had almost as much Jam :twisted:.
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I agree.... I think it'd be cool if someone put up some good information on all of it. I was re reading some of the posts on the vortex when hillfolk first got his in, etc. Ordering 5 sets, etc... and total seal told him right there that they couldn't "build" a custom set as nice as the OEM Goetze rings, that it was best that he got them a set of OEM's and then modify...from there...it looks very nice.
Then you read some other information them as well. Alot of it goes down to the bore prepration process... and machine shops (if they do your work, etc. ) machining the block correctly to the new set of gapless rings. The 'tex isn't definitive, but then there are also some stories of very interesting BLOW BY but excellent compression issues around... weird eh? Makes you wonder....seems to me if blow by was bad, compression wouldn't be good ...
Alot of sitting on the fence. Total seals info on technical specs between OEM also exists mainly for RACE engines... their results deal solely (from what I've seen...stop me, cite me to another place if I'm wrong) with the race engines, usually the tests taken in between 10 races? They also suggest leakdown testing after each race, etc. Nothing really all that much on general use "high performance" motors...that would be interesting stuff.
Most failures that I have seen have been with the general use motors... usually forced induction. Several guys run gapless on ITB'd 16v's, 8v's and alot of other combinations... all NA of course...with few issues. Boost applied, it seems different in many of their cases...
Then there are your examples here and I believe Dave made a claim with 40psi on his motor running gapless... then do we consider peak cylinder pressures on the IDI's vs. TDI's, etc...
Anyways...alot of considerations and possibilites...
Joe
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I forgot to mention 1 important detail about the 2 different ringed engines.The OEM ringed engine had stock CR(22:1) and the total seal ringed engine is in the 18.5-19:1 range.However both engines still made similar HP I will be extracting hopefully 200 WHP wtih the current setup so mabye we will wait till then to see If these rings hold in :lol:.
Compression was good enough to bent 3 rods on the OEM ringed engine.With that much better of a seal this time around and PD con rods the rings will be put under more load for sure.I could see that causing an issue with more wear on the ring/bores but I guess thats the price to pay.I will get a good synthetic oil in this time before any crazy hp is made :twisted:.
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Isn't this still more a debate between gapless and gapped rings though? Your rings aren't full total seal correct? I had the conversation (as mentioned above) as well as hillfolk with total seal themselves that they COULD NOT build as nice a ring as the OEM's were (in this case Goetze) ... they simply modify the stock ring to be "gapless". So its your "modified" OE rings that are holding all of this power...
Just don't want to lead people astray...
Unless of course your getting your rings elsewhere such as Hastings or some other manufacturer?
200whp eh? Interesting...
Joe
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I'll have to find out about the ring set I have form Total seal.The previous engine did have Goetze rings for sure.This current engine made 161 whp @ 4300 rpm on the dyno 300kms after rebuild.That was on 30 psi and very consevative fueling max egt's were 1200 deg pre turbo.With More fuel and boost this time as well as compound turbos hopefully working this time and more than 4300 rpm I think 200 whp will happen.
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I've been using total seal gapless rings on all my engines lately too, I send OEM goetez rings to total seal and they modify them. I don't think I will build another engine without them.
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Once again, to each is own... your always going to have your naysayers against them and those for them... in the end, they are still modified rings and its a debate between gapless and gapped units.
Until hard data can be thrown down that they are relavant for anything beyond a full race motor that sees that duty only and is cracked/opened alot for those purposes, you have this type of debate.
Total seal notes/says this themselves right on their home page...
I don't believe they are a cureall for an engine build and relieving blow by, look out there with those having bad experiences...some experience great compression with crazy blow by, some its it opposite, they get major blowby and horrible compression. Some of these experiences are with professional installs, some are without. Either way, its like anything else and does leave room for debate...
Anyways... good luck on the 200whp
Joe
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I'm just wondering why auto manufactures don't use these in cars already. It can't be cost since an extra cm2 of material isn't going to add substantial cost.
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I talked to Total Seal and the rep there says that they never have made a gapless top ring...either off the shelf or custom.
Hillfolk'r who did you speak too? and do you have anyway of documenting that they did actually make a gapless top ring set?
Total seal admitted that a top gapless ring is better than the 2nd gapless setup. The only reason for the 2nd gapless has to do with the quality of rings available.
They also stated the Goetze rings are some of the "WORST" rings out there, which surprises me. I've never had trouble with any factory ring, goetze, cofap, or mahle. I always check the end gap to make sure they're within spec. I'm just trying to squeeze the most hp out of a volvo D24T engine.
I have a nice set of perfect circle rings that I would like to have modified.
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Seems like we are getting alot of different opinions and talk from total seal then...
As I already mentioned, I had the same conversation with the tech rep at Total seal as Hillfolk did...
...we don't make rings for this particular motor short of a custom job (was in the range of $300 or so for a complete set of theirs) and he said, besides, we couldn't even make as nice a ring as Goetze makes with their materials and tooling. Its best to send us an OEM set and have the TOP ring modified...just as he did. I had the same conversation about top vs. second as well and learned the same...
Now you found someone that said the Goetze rings were junk? Man...craziness... this is kinda what I'm talking about. If I look through all my stuff on the 1z build I have this info around from talking to the tech rep and also have quotes done off my old rings that they sent me in the mail...
I also, never have had a problem with OEM and I am starting to feel blue in the face from talking about it. Perfect Circle is a Kolbelschmidt or Goetze off shoot as well I believe if memory serves me correct. Isn't that branded through Worldpac or something like Victor Reinz as a remarked distributor of OE parts?
Joe
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The Perfect Circle rings that I have are actually for an audi 5000td. They're a much stiffer ring than either Goetze or Cofab and the top ring is supposedly chrome or chromium. The oil scrapper ring looks exactly like a Goetze, 2-piece design.
The Goetze rings I always thought were top of the line and I always use them on td's I build. Cofab is a good ring for N/A diesels.
Back to total seal...It makes sense to use a gapless ring on a diesel with 500psi static compression plus 20psi of boost. The amount of blowby of just 5% would be alot of hot combustion gases getting into the crankcase.
The problems I've always heard with total seal was at high rpm. The gapless 2nd ring would unseat the top ring and make it flutter and loose it's seal because it actaully was producing a tighter seal over the top ring and pressure would build between the two rings.
A friend of mine that does alot of domestic engines tells me total seal rings are very hard on the engine cylinder bores...they wear them out faster than an oem ring. From his personal experience and I believe him, he has nothing to gain as I buy my parts from a wholesaler not him. I do not know if domestic v8 blocks are a softer cast iron. Maybe somebody can shed light on this.
The gapless top ring makes much more sense..since the top ring would have a tighter seal...more pressure, more force on the ring to hold it tight to the piston and walls...the 2nd ring would hold back whatever slipped past the top ring.
It would be great if the guys that are running total seals have or will do a compression test just to see if the static compression is the same or higher than stock specs. I have an ALH tdi and it was making over 510 compression with 30K on it. That's better than new spec so I know the factory rings have broken-in quite nicely.
I want to use a total seal ring because I want to run much higher boost and fuel over stock on a motor I'm building. I'm trying to make the engine as efficient as possible.
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A gapless top ring would cause more wear on the cyl bore than a gapless 2nd ring, This is just my idea on that.Having a gapless top would make the 2nd ring almost useless when compared to the gapless 2nd ringsetup.The gapless 2nd ring would only really seal off what the top doesn't.A gapless top would be doing to much of the sealing which would cause accelerated wear on the bore.Like I said just my 2 cent's on this but I think you'll see it makes sense.
Would be nice to know what total seal uses for my ringset??
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When I talked to total seal...they admitted the top ring setup is better. If you look at all of they're new gapless ring sets...they almost all use a gapless top ring. I would compare the 1st vs 2nd gapless rings discussion to the garrett t-3 turbos vs. the gt series turbos. Old vs new technology.
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this is all very interesting. Would be cool to see if total seal would "pull" something for us to confirm things and put down conflicting data.
Problems with blow by i have seen and/or benefits of the gapless setup was higher rpm, high boost applications where blow by becomes a problem. In many of the cases, bore wear was accerated...
I have to say...running 25psi plus now lately on the crazy build mTDI, no issues, no compression losses and no worries about rings seating correctly. Afterall, hillfolk did get on me for not "getting on it", so I did... :)
Does that mean I'll run the total seals? Hmm...not at this moment, guess I'm firm to believe that the OEM rings lasted a long time and how well they were well within spec even at 126k made me all the more convinced... With a motor (the mTDI in the mk1) that'll probably see 50k miles in maybe 5 years...and thats a big maybe, def. not going to go there until more convincing information comes out... for now, I'm happy with the OEM rings doing their job and doing them very well without and adverse side effects as long as they are properly installed and broken in as with any good build...
Joe
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I agree, and I haven't had any issues with the oem rings...but imagine the oem top ring modified to be gapless..which total seal may do. It's a patented process so Goetze, Mahle etc can't make them without paying a licensing fee to them. You'd get your cake and eat it too.
I haven't done any calcs, but running say 500 static compression & 30psi boost with fueling to match, the pressure the rings see must be staggering. There could be alot of potential hp slipping past that gap.
Plus the other thing I like about the gapless ring is you can actualy run more ring gap.
I've rebuilt a couple of engines...because the previous rebuilder did not check the end gap and it was too tight..the ring eventually cracked...no compression.
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like i said in the im
i havent done a comp check recently
but blowby is the same as it ever was(nil)
and its got like 15-18k miles on it now with no problems
and it gets flogged every day
ask me how hard i drive it by the 2 or 3 broken transaxles ive had happen lately :wink:
ill never rebuild any engine(for myself) ever again without using a total seal setup,even if its a weedwacker :roll:
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the saga continues...I sent total seal a set of perfect circle rings and a set of Mahle rings. When they received them they said both sets have a cast iron top ring and they didn't want to cut them.
The rings are 1.75mm and they do not have a steel ring in that thickness to cut or make. What I find as strange is that they do sell a gapless top ring in ductile cast iron in a 1.5mm vw application no less. Yet they don't want to the rings I sent them.
So we came to a compromise, I bought a set of gapless 2nd comp rings and they're going to cut a set of the top rings I sent them.
A little frustrating to say the least but hopefully worth it.
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i believe these rings would be great even in a non race application engine. the rings would last a whole lot longer, and compression would stay higher longer.
after all, these were created for longetivity in race applications right?
i will definitely send total seal my rings and get them done up. :) i kinda have a hard time understanding how the top gapless ring will cause more wear on the motor? does it press more on the bores or something???
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total seal rings arrived...I looked at the set total seal sells off the shelf and I swear it looks like a Cofle "C" on the ring.
it's been coated which is nice...I'll take a closer look tomorrow and take a pic of the logo.
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Well, I did take a closer look at the total seal off the shelf rings, the 2nd comp ring. Well it is in fact a Cofle Ring, it has the "C" stamped in it. It's has a nice coating on it..but I was surprised that total seal modified a stock ring.
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the rings i sent them were made by goetze
ill have to find my invoice and just scan it i guess
:roll:
cause I know what i put in my engine
,and the time on the phone w/total seal
im thinkin "kevin in the sales dept" doesnt work there anymore :cry: