VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
General Information => Upgrades (non engine related ) => Topic started by: homerj1 on January 11, 2013, 05:02:40 pm
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My 84 mk1 came with a a n/a motor - so no inner fender air box. Looked at fitting a mk3 aaz air box - but it is too big.
So I'm thinking of a K&N Universal Filter - what size and shape is everyone using?
Also any ideas or pics on how you isolate the above filter from the heat of the engine compartment? or does that really matter in PEI? ( lows of -5 to -20 deg C. and summer temps of 20 to 28 deg C
I also plan to run a inter-cooler - so extra space is importance - hence the K&N.
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No advantage to an inter-cooler on a Naturally Aspirated engine.
Also I have heard and read a K&N is really no good. Sure it flows a butt ton of air, but how do you think it does it? At the loss of filtering ability. ;) A stock paper element will be more than enough for any stock to mild build.
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Meh, I ran mine at burning man which is among the dustiest places on earth, and got less dirt in the intake than my bro with his Fram. In fact I didn't see any on my clean side, but it took awhile to wash afterward.
That said, the cones have less are than the stock element on my car, so I went with the stock replace K&N.
My banks kit came with a K&N so I used it...for $2700 would they really ship it with something that cost them more, and didn't filer?
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I'm just saying what I have read from tests not done by me.
For $2700 would they really ship it with something that cost them more, and didn't filer?
To get higher net power gains? I wouldn't put it past them ;).
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They round to an integer anyway, I doubt it makes that much difference.
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They round to an integer anyway, I doubt it makes that much difference.
Then I'll save the $43 over a paper filter ;).
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8v, I wouldn't knock them until you try them. I used to race ATV's and all mine had the K&N brand filters. In the dust bowls of Ohio summers we never had an issue. On my 4x4 offroad stuff I have ran them too. They filter well, especially out of the box. I think the deal is most don't know how to clean them properly. It says right on them, DO NOT USE GAS, but everyone i know but me uses gas to clean them. The filter cleaner actually gets it cleaner than gas. I think gas degrades the filter as well. But at any rate, I like them and have no issues at all.
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Right, and if you do not do it exactly as they say.... no filtering. The oil traps the dirt and not the filter. Frankly, with proper care I'd be afraid to have a diesel sucking oil in to the intake :S.
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I think the deal is most don't know how to clean them properly. It says right on them, DO NOT USE GAS, but everyone i know but me uses gas to clean them. The filter cleaner actually gets it cleaner than gas. I think gas degrades the filter as well.
I've never actually watched anyone else clean one but soaking in gasoline will eat the cotton filter medium pretty quickly! I think the cleaner is basically isopropyl alcohol but it comes with the oil and is not very expensive anyway.
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Right, and if you do not do it exactly as they say.... no filtering. The oil traps the dirt and not the filter. Frankly, with proper care I'd be afraid to have a diesel sucking oil in to the intake :S.
You can go on their website, and it tells you exactly how much oil to use if you are inept enough not to be able to figure it out.
It's about enough to fuel a 1.6 at WOT for 0.0787 second.
Really, it's about like washing a dish every 20,000 mi.
I have two so I can trade them out, and my average cost used was $3ea.
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Another good point, What is the point? Are we building extreme power engines? No. Has big power been proven on much cheaper no maintenance OEM paper filters? Yes.
Reason for K&N on any car on this board? None.
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1 I've seen a paper filter that in side by side comparison filtered remarkably worse, and none of the local stores carry a better brand anymore.
2 Why throw more stuff in the trash?
3 possible small performance gain, why not?
4 when it's dirty, you don't have to go anywhere to find another.
I'm just saying what I have read from tests not done by me.
For $2700 would they really ship it with something that cost them more, and didn't filer?
To get higher net power gains? I wouldn't put it past them ;).
Here you imply they will make a difference on a vehicle with an added turbo, and slightly larger exhaust???
Another good point, What is the point? Are we building extreme power engines? No. Has big power been proven on much cheaper no maintenance OEM paper filters? Yes.
Reason for K&N on any car on this board? None.
So what would be wrong with a little more power
Then I'll save the $43 over a paper filter ;).
3 changes later, I'll be ahead $2, except I paid way less than that for my K&N, so I'll be ahead like $30.
Cones is another issue, but if you must have a manly cone filter, I can sell you one of these.
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b126/SVOlvo/FSTB/DVC01042.jpg)
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b126/SVOlvo/FSTB/DVC01039.jpg)
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I have a generic cone on there right now, that is dirty as a donkey's aaaaaaassssssssss.. No noticeable effect on power from new to now.
I only have it for convenience and I don't have a stock mk1 diesel air box.
I run Mann filters on what I can, and for $3 why not? Either way, I see no gains to a K&N. I will not ever use one in my lifetime. A bandwagon I will not be on lol.
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No advantage to an inter-cooler on a Naturally Aspirated engine.
Also I have heard and read a K&N is really no good. Sure it flows a butt ton of air, but how do you think it does it? At the loss of filtering ability. ;) A stock paper element will be more than enough for any stock to mild build.
Sorry, a beer related typo :)
My 84 came with a n/a motor, but I am putting in a 1.6 td.- and I am therefore missing the td fender mt air box. Since I am running a k03, I do plan to install a intercooler at some pt.
So do I, 1. Look for a mk1 td airbox. 2. Run a washable filter ( like a K&N) 3. Stop overthinking stuff. lol
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Jer, seriously, lay off the K&N until you run one. I had mine in my ATV for 8 years, racing conditions, and never had to rebuild it in those years. Eventually, the honda trans failed as I ripped the hell out of it, so the engine didn't fail because I babied it. The guys I raced with used UNI, K&N, and stock units and the only guys with issues were the ones that ran no airbox. It didn't matter what you ran if you didn't run the airbox they would be rebuilding every 10 races or so. I have found the generic are not the same as K&N. I have picked them up and you can see holes in the generics cotton vs. the K&N. I also have found that my diesels would always blow quite a bit more black with a paper filter. My engine that ingested the precup had 40,000 miles and looked brand new - the 3rd cylinder of course. You could see the hone marks and it did very well. I am not saying to jump on the bandwagen, but I would ask you stop giving a bad rep to them. I feel it is undeserved.
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I have a generic cone on there right now, that is dirty as a donkey's aaaaaaassssssssss.. No noticeable effect on power from new to now.
I only have it for convenience and I don't have a stock mk1 diesel air box.
I run Mann filters on what I can, and for $3 why not? Either way, I see no gains to a K&N. I will not ever use one in my lifetime. A bandwagon I will not be on lol.
ghetto vato zone filters are junk..
K&N filters are NOT junk..
they are one of the best working filters ive ever had..
back in my wheelin days, i would have an air filter that was CLOGGED with mud, and the inside was spotless, along with the intake pipes..
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I have a generic cone on there right now, that is dirty as a donkey's aaaaaaassssssssss.. No noticeable effect on power from new to now.
I only have it for convenience and I don't have a stock mk1 diesel air box.
I run Mann filters on what I can, and for $3 why not? Either way, I see no gains to a K&N. I will not ever use one in my lifetime. A bandwagon I will not be on lol.
ghetto vato zone filters are junk..
K&N filters are NOT junk..
they are one of the best working filters ive ever had..
back in my wheelin days, i would have an air filter that was CLOGGED with mud, and the inside was spotless, along with the intake pipes..
So, if I was going to buy a K&N filter, , what minimum size or surface area, shape (cone, oval?)
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Go to the K&N website, look up the one for a turbo 1.6, and don't go smaller than that.
Be sure it sucks cold air, or you will end up with a performance loss.
The shape of the element is far less important than the ducting around it.
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http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?prod=RC-5182XD
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I'm going against the grain by voting NAY on K&N filters (which are made right up the road from me). I speak from my own experiences.
I think they pass a lot of fine dust. Around here it's desert and there is a lot of fine dust. I've drive my VW on dirt roads. When I bought my Cummins truck, the previous owner put one on and I was very disappointed to find a fine layer of dust coating all the intercooler piping and such. I ripped it out and crushed it, so it couldn't do any more damage to another car. I don't think it hurt the engine that much but still, they're not a good idea for my use at least. The same thing happened on my Cherokee too when I tried one, like 10 years ago, I observed dust in my intake after using a K&N filter. The oil came out too and mixed with the dust which gummed up the throttle body requiring it to be removed for cleaning.
I do think they have a purpose, on a boat maybe (I've read they qualify as a flame arrestor) or race vehicle that doesn't see much use in dusty environments. But for the "real world" I don't like them. Give me a paper filter that catches everything even if it takes away 5 hp. If you live somewhere that isn't dusty at all, I think it might be OK.
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I have a generic cone on there right now, that is dirty as a donkey's aaaaaaassssssssss.. No noticeable effect on power from new to now.
I only have it for convenience and I don't have a stock mk1 diesel air box.
I run Mann filters on what I can, and for $3 why not? Either way, I see no gains to a K&N. I will not ever use one in my lifetime. A bandwagon I will not be on lol.
ghetto vato zone filters are junk..
K&N filters are NOT junk..
they are one of the best working filters ive ever had..
back in my wheelin days, i would have an air filter that was CLOGGED with mud, and the inside was spotless, along with the intake pipes..
So, if I was going to buy a K&N filter, , what minimum size or surface area, shape (cone, oval?)
The demands of our engines, pretty much any K&N will work.
Baj. I understand your deal, you have actually ran a K&N from what you say. I think you could have had this experience and if I had similar I would think that I would do the same as you. I have not however and think all should find out what the deal is for themselves.
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My test environment (http://forums.turbobricks.com/images/smilies/dunno.gif)
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b126/SVOlvo/DVC00122_zps2baa9888.jpg)
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I'm going against the grain by voting NAY on K&N filters (which are made right up the road from me). I speak from my own experiences.
I think they pass a lot of fine dust. Around here it's desert and there is a lot of fine dust. I've drive my VW on dirt roads. When I bought my Cummins truck, the previous owner put one on and I was very disappointed to find a fine layer of dust coating all the intercooler piping and such. I ripped it out and crushed it, so it couldn't do any more damage to another car. I don't think it hurt the engine that much but still, they're not a good idea for my use at least. The same thing happened on my Cherokee too when I tried one, like 10 years ago, I observed dust in my intake after using a K&N filter. The oil came out too and mixed with the dust which gummed up the throttle body requiring it to be removed for cleaning.
I do think they have a purpose, on a boat maybe (I've read they qualify as a flame arrestor) or race vehicle that doesn't see much use in dusty environments. But for the "real world" I don't like them. Give me a paper filter that catches everything even if it takes away 5 hp. If you live somewhere that isn't dusty at all, I think it might be OK.
if oiled PROPERLY... they will filter out 99.9% of all dust.. if your engine had dust in the intercooler and charge piping, then its because the PO didnt know how to properly clean and oil the filter..
he either used compressed air (and blew the gauze apart) on the filter, or didnt use sufficient oil...
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I think you've all coaxed me over, I'll be getting one when I build my cold air box in the passenger fender.
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I think you've all coaxed me over, I'll be getting one when I build my cold air box in the passenger fender.
Can you elaborate a bit more about your design plans.
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I think you've all coaxed me over, I'll be getting one when I build my cold air box in the passenger fender.
Can you elaborate a bit more about your design plans.
build a shroud around the filter, to keep hot under-hood air from entering the filter. he wants to keep cold air available to his filter 100% of the time..
i imagine it will be somethin like a Neuspeed P-Flow intake..
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pretty much a vvery thin sheet metal (steel or alum) box that will allow the draw of air to be channeled up through the passenger side. Between the frame rail, and the inner fender is a nice little duct that pretty much goes straight down to the ground. Was figuring on building a box that incorporated this design as part of the ducting.
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Thanks for all the help.
pretty much a vvery thin sheet metal (steel or alum) box that will allow the draw of air to be channeled up through the passenger side. Between the frame rail, and the inner fender is a nice little duct that pretty much goes straight down to the ground. Was figuring on building a box that incorporated this design as part of the ducting.
I was noticing that gap today. So you intent to build a box and vent it on the bottom to the "duct" or even better yet attach a hose to the bottom of the box and run it down and facing forwards - using a ram air type of effect?
also found this: http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Building-and-Testing-an-Airbox/A_110281/article.html
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Thanks for all the help.
pretty much a vvery thin sheet metal (steel or alum) box that will allow the draw of air to be channeled up through the passenger side. Between the frame rail, and the inner fender is a nice little duct that pretty much goes straight down to the ground. Was figuring on building a box that incorporated this design as part of the ducting.
I was noticing that gap today. So you intent to build a box and vent it on the bottom to the "duct" or even better yet attach a hose to the bottom of the box and run it down and facing forwards - using a ram air type of effect?
also found this: http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Building-and-Testing-an-Airbox/A_110281/article.html
opps this is the link -http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Airboxes.html
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even better yet attach a hose to the bottom of the box and run it down and facing forwards - using a ram air type of effect?
Gotta be careful, it'd probably be really easy to suck up some water that way! Mind you, will it get past the filter? Probably not.
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if oiled PROPERLY... they will filter out 99.9% of all dust.. if your engine had dust in the intercooler and charge piping, then its because the PO didnt know how to properly clean and oil the filter..
he either used compressed air (and blew the gauze apart) on the filter, or didnt use sufficient oil...
The oil eventually migrates out of the filter and then it lets the dust through. I bought the truck from a cement contractor and it had like a mix of concrete dust and desert dust on everything (including the intake).
You can keep re-oiling it, but then you're oiling your air filter every other weekend and that's just silly. That's basically an oil bath filter and there's a reason they haven't used those things in 50 years... they let dust through and you have to oil it every weekend! It's not just that I think they're ineffective, but also inconvenient. When I had one, it always seemed to take forever to dry. I'll take the convenience of the paper filter which is highly effective as well.
745 has the right idea, as far as the kind of conditions I'm concerned about. Around here TONS of people have trucks they use to go out to the desert with to camp and ride dirtbikes and it's really dusty (which is NOT the same as mud, I hate mud) and they use K&N filters because "it makes it go faster" and I'm always saying "NO!!! You're killing your engine."
I will say that the brand of air filter you use does have an effect though. I wound up with a couple of cheapie air filters that fit the VW and they did not work very well, there was a noticeable decrease in power and a noticeable increase in smoking compared to the German ones I usually use on these.
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The oil eventually migrates out of the filter and then it lets the dust through.
Everything I know about filters says oily dust in the filter will be tacky, and stick more particles more effectively, but at some cost to flow.
I sometimes re oil mine once between cleanings.
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So the bottom line is? :-\
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What are your power goals? Because I am pretty sure I have seen people make 200whp on these engines with the stock air box and stock Mann air filter..
Final verdict for any 1.6 or 1.9 VW diesel?? Waste of time and money.
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How does it cost more if it will outlast the car?
Mine lists at $25, which adds up to a $46 K&N real fast.
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Time is money, do you not value your time? Do you have all the time in the world to be cleaning your air filter every weekend?
With all that time lost, it adds up. Assuming 200,000 is the life of the car.. you could replace the stock filter every third oil change (15k) and be at the same basic price.
13.3 changes, at $5 a pop. $67. Much less PITA, no oiling, no wasted time for no gains on one of these engines.
EDIT: $25?? You're being bent over. ;D
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No I'm not, I don't buy them. That just dealer list price.
I clean my filters maybe twice a year, and for one of the cars I have an extra, so down time is 0.
It's a 10 or 15 minute activity while sitting in the sun having a beer. Doesn't feel wasted at all. Especially if you do it while waiting for oil or coolant to drain, glue to dry, or whatever.
I cheated on the price of my K&N, they were $3ea. at pick N Pull, just like any other air filter element.
For $45 delivered, I would not have got the spare.
$5? lowest I see for you is
$5.12
$12.26 with est. tax & shipping
RockAuto.com
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I actually own several K&N. It is a money saver in the long run. You do not have to clean them every weekend. I cleaned my diesel air filter whenever I started seeing black smoke more than normal. It is easy and until you have one you will not understand. If you have a really dusty area or track they make a thing called a pre filter that helps with loose dust from clogging the main filter. I have only ran one and liked it for what I needed. The prefilter is un oiled and cleans by shaking it off.
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How does it cost more if it will outlast the car?
Mine lists at $25, which adds up to a $46 K&N real fast.
you HAVE TO replace the paper filter..
TD air filters are NOT cheap around here, unless you want some cheap no-name, white box vato-zone, or O'reilly garbage..
my K&N filters cost $5 at u-pluck-it.. thats LESS than a brand new cheap paper filter..
my intake tract is ALWAYS spotless..
IDK dude.. they run K&N filters on rigs that run the Dakar rally, the Baja 500 and 1000, as well as plenty of other dusty races..
im gonna stand by what i said, if they are cleaned and oiled properly, they will filter almost as much dust out of the air as a paper filter, but with ALOT more flow..
im gonna say that the guy you got your truck from, was an idiot, and probably used compressed air to blow the junk out of his K&N filter, and blew the gauze apart, leaving big holes in the filter media, just letting dust RIGHT THRU..
ive run K&N filters on ALL of my ATVs and motorcycles.. they are often times ridden in VERY dusty conditions.. and ive never had a dirty intake duct, or dirty carb throat either..
(plus, another reason to run a K&N filter, is when you CANT or dont want to run an air box.. ALL of my charge/intake piping is on the same side, so i have NO ROOM to run a stock air box on my car.. i would have to re-locate too much stuff to make the TD air box work, but a K&N pod fits nicely)
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I would like to see a scientific comparison of k&n vs a good paper filter mostly a Mann because they are thick as hell, or even a wix filter. I don't think they're trash or anything I'm just curious how much better they are. Anything is better than fram
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I would be willing to concede that a paper filter lets less dirt through than a K&N. At the same time it lets a ton less air through as well. Neither are 100% so to me it becomes what is an acceptable level. I like the K&N, so I run them. I don't think anyone would say that the engine will blow up if you run it for 15,000 miles, so I say try for yourself and if you don't like it someone like me would buy it off you. I had put lots of money into my 1.6 build and it never had a paper filter on it. After 40,000 miles the rings and bores looked as good as new...except #3 which had holes in it from the precup, but the cross hatch that was there looked awesome. I drive 50% dirt roads 50% paved in some form. I can only say how it works for me and I have no problems with them
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Just to satisfy the curious. TrevOrbr you asked: I would like to see a scientific comparison of K&N versus a good paper filter. Is this science or fantasy?
http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html
Or this one,
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm
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Paper filters out smaller particles and flow less air, are cheaper, and aren't reusuable.
K&N filters slightly worse than paper, flow more air, are reusable, and are more expensive initially.
Pick your poison, I don't think it as big of an argument as people on the internetz make it out to be. Kind of like the argument whether amsoil is actually good or not. I really don't care either way on the matter, I would run either filter and I have run both kinds on various vehicles and haven't had problems with either.
Anyone else notice that first link seems to be biased towards ac delco? their products have always been viewed as pure crap by every mechanic I've known.
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itd be interesting to use one of those obd2 plug in programs that lets u monitor lbs/min of air flow and change filters and see if there is any difference too. the one site seems to show only small gains but he is only showing one flow rate,
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the second test is a bit flawed, he's sucking all the air through a 3" square of filter not even pleated. This has to yield a much higher velocity and pressure than you cold ever hope to achieve with a full size filter.
Also where one filter has 7 pleats, and another has 15, it won't show a difference despite one having 2x the area.
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I ran a stock sized K&N on my Yamaha production two stroke road racer. Even though it was run on pavement except for some of the pit areas, the inside of the air intake was loaded with dust.
Have had much better luck with some of the foam intakes.
I still have a K&N on my 500 single mainly because it was on it when I purchased it. I don't ride it much. At the next rebuild I am going with a foam sock.
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the second test is a bit flawed, he's sucking all the air through a 3" square of filter not even pleated. This has to yield a much higher velocity and pressure than you cold ever hope to achieve with a full size filter.
Also where one filter has 7 pleats, and another has 15, it won't show a difference despite one having 2x the area.
Yeah that's crap especially hen u see a Mann filter compared to anything else
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How does it cost more if it will outlast the car?
Mine lists at $25, which adds up to a $46 K&N real fast.
The fact that it's sold somewhere for $25 as an inflated list price is not relevant when we all know that in the real world you can get one for half that.
TD air filters are NOT cheap around here, unless you want some cheap no-name, white box vato-zone, or O'reilly garbage...
I'm convinced I could make a living out of selling stuff like this. Around here they sell the Mahle OC51 filter for the TD engine for under $5 if you know where to look. IIRC you said they were like $10 where you are.
IDK dude.. they run K&N filters on rigs that run the Dakar rally, the Baja 500 and 1000, as well as plenty of other dusty races..
im gonna stand by what i said, if they are cleaned and oiled properly, they will filter almost as much dust out of the air as a paper filter, but with ALOT more flow..
im gonna say that the guy you got your truck from, was an idiot, and probably used compressed air to blow the junk out of his K&N filter, and blew the gauze apart, leaving big holes in the filter media, just letting dust RIGHT THRU..
ive run K&N filters on ALL of my ATVs and motorcycles.. they are often times ridden in VERY dusty conditions.. and ive never had a dirty intake duct, or dirty carb throat either..
But that's different. That's a race. The object is to go fast and with the 1000, just getting to the end is an accomplishment. Who cares if the engine only lasts 5000 miles! It's a race engine and the race is only 1000 miles long! As long as it doesn't suck in a cactus it's the 1000 miles of dust isn't an issue for an engine that's going to be torn apart and inspected after those 1000 miles. It's totally different for a daily driver. you can't compare the two. I want to get to work every day on time. I want to keep my truck for a long time. I don't want to rebuild my engine. Fortunately it was a low mileage truck even with the dust. For those reasons, I will take a filter that does a better job of filtering the air, even if it takes away a few HP and even if costs more in the long run, I want the best filtration, not the best air flow or lowest price.
But as I said, at least I think I said, K&N filters do have a place in the automotive world. I forgot to mention that I had one on my FIAT spider. And that was after I took it off the Jeep (but not the same filter). That car wasn't a daily driver. A few more specks of dust didn't matter. But over 100 or 200 thousand miles on a daily driver that does matter. On a boat, they're fine in my book. Even on a dirtbike, a K&N filter is fine, because how often are you riding the thing really? A few hours a month maybe? But to put one on your truck that takes the dirtbike to where you ride it? Hell no.
As far as the previous owner of my truck? I have no idea. I never blew mine out with air or brake cleaner, but the Jeep did get dust in the intake, although fitment with that filter was in issue too, something else I've noticed with their filters. They're made of wire mesh and rubber, they don't squish nicely into an airbox, at least some of them don't, so I think you can get leaks around the edges of their filters.
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Something that no one has mentioned, is when dust is found in the intake when using a K&N: Are all connections airtight? It seems like a very good possibility that air is getting in somewhere besides the filter. I have seen many different airboxes that don't even look air tight.
Also we don't know how they were oiled/if properly oiled at all.
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Not to complicate things - but what about a Honda s2000 paper cone filter?
http://www.canadapartsonline.com/air-filter/honda/s2000.html
From what I can find Ford engines and some Chev vortex engines also use a paper cone- type filter. Maybe a trip to Napa might be in my future?
Also found this '88 to '91 Honda Prelude Air Filter
update: http://mymiata.paladinmicro.com/#DIYIntake
???
So build an air box and change paper cone filters?
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Not to complicate things - but what about a Honda s2000 paper cone filter?
http://www.canadapartsonline.com/air-filter/honda/s2000.html
From what I can find Ford engines and some Chev vortex engines also use a paper cone- type filter. Maybe a trip to Napa might be in my future?
Also found this '88 to '91 Honda Prelude Air Filter
update: http://mymiata.paladinmicro.com/#DIYIntake
???
So build an air box and change paper cone filters?
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I have cones that I won't use, as the area is less than my stock rectangle.
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A simple test would be to put a vacuum gauge tapped into the inside of the air box (before the turbo) some place and see how much pressure drop there is.
I have a feeling that you might need a very sensitive unit to detect the pressure drop through a stock air filter.
Also picking up the air from behind the radiator would raise the temperature of the charge, decreasing the amount of oxygen that the engine actually gets.
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Paper filters out smaller particles and flow less air, are cheaper, and aren't reusuable.
K&N filters slightly worse than paper, flow more air, are reusable, and are more expensive initially.
Pick your poison, I don't think it as big of an argument as people on the internetz make it out to be. Kind of like the argument whether amsoil is actually good or not. I really don't care either way on the matter, I would run either filter and I have run both kinds on various vehicles and haven't had problems with either.
Anyone else notice that first link seems to be biased towards ac delco? their products have always been viewed as pure crap by every mechanic I've known.
yes, i definitely noticed..
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http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=290373
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http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=290373
Thanks for the link!
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Some of those tests are hard to believe, like someone is getting incentives from the competition...
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The competition being OEM paper air filter manufacturers? lol
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What isn't stated is that you can "tune" your car to the filter and intake setup. If you bolt on a filter setup and do not change anything fueling wise, nothing will happen. On my car I could run the fuel screw another 1/8 to 3/16 turn with the same EGT as before. If you have a computer car and you don't tune it, the filter will not add more fuel. It is just like a header or intake or muffler or anything that adds or reduces engine flow. You must tune accordingly. If you have a turbo with the potential to flow enough for 250HP but your pump settings are only ever going to give you enough fuel for 150HP you will never have 250HP. Same with filter. Most all of those tests were NOT maximized for the air flow the filter could give.
I tried this myself with the TD airbox stock filter and the K&N pannel filter. The ammount of EGT and black smoke was crazy if I tried to keep the K&N settings with the stock Mann.
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What isn't stated is that you can "tune" your car to the filter and intake setup. If you bolt on a filter setup and do not change anything fueling wise, nothing will happen. On my car I could run the fuel screw another 1/8 to 3/16 turn with the same EGT as before. If you have a computer car and you don't tune it, the filter will not add more fuel. It is just like a header or intake or muffler or anything that adds or reduces engine flow. You must tune accordingly. If you have a turbo with the potential to flow enough for 250HP but your pump settings are only ever going to give you enough fuel for 150HP you will never have 250HP. Same with filter. Most all of those tests were NOT maximized for the air flow the filter could give.
I tried this myself with the TD airbox stock filter and the K&N pannel filter. The ammount of EGT and black smoke was crazy if I tried to keep the K&N settings with the stock Mann.
my 86 GTI is tuned to run a K&N panel filter with a modified lower air box..
i notice the power difference if i switch back to a stock Mann diesel filter..
it also gets about 1-2mpg LESS with the Mann filter..
my K&N costs about as much as 6 Mann filters..
ive basically paid my K&N off, just in filters..
its pretty dusty around here, i would have to replace a paper filter atleast a couple times a year..
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Hi Ror,
It is dusty here too. Have about 5-6 miles of gravel roads from house to highway.
Every K&N that I have looked through has places that you can see right through it. My car has over 250,000 miles on it I wouldn't be happy to have it last another 10,000. Would be happier with another 100,000.
As far as tuning, I would agree that that less filter adds performance but it less filter can decrease longevity.
Taking the filter as a power waster perhaps you would want to run an oil filter bipass or one with just broad screen instead of a paper or cloth filter. Squeezing oil through a filter media takes some power.
Point is that if you want more power you will have to sacrifice something.
As far as diesel tuning. Once you get beyond the internal engine and fi timing, turbo and such, the only thing that controls fuel flow is the rpm and the pedal position. Want to use less gas (aka, be more efficient) you have to drive more efficiently.
This kind of discussion is like talking about religion, or politics. We all know what we want to know.
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You can see light through a paper filter too, just sayin...
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The K&N company always used to advertise that their filters filtered better as they became dirty. In effect they were a filter made of dirt. The dust particles were supposed to cling to the filter element creating more bulk in the filter.
Probably the same argument could be said of both open cell foam and paper elements. The dirtier they get the narrower the channels and the more dirt they will collect.
Hi Ty:
The K&N has holes that you can actually see through. I have never had a paper filter that I could perceive more than just light or dark through.
Practically all my off road machines have come factory with foam filters. Every half a millimeter, the air takes a sharp turn letting the dirt just pile up in the filter at every open bubble. I wouldn't mind putting one of those in my vw if I could get one cheap enough.
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I wasn't aware you could actually see through them in that way.
I have had several dirtbikes with foam filters you could wash and re-use. I wouldn't mind having one of those for the VW, I think oiled foam filters are better at filtering than paper or K&N style.
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If the filters were completely opaque, then air would not flow. I too can see describable shapes and features through my K&N.. I can only see that there is a BRIGHT light source behind my paper filter.
I agree, except this is worse than religion. None of us (that I know of) have a flow bench to actually test anything anyone has said.. So its all just opinion thus far. Why there is such a hard-on for less filtering abilities.. I cannot fathom.
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(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b126/SVOlvo/DVC01497_zps24b7832c.jpg)
My airbox lid after 50K miles of K&N horror.
The radial marks are from the molding process.
EGR and PCV are probably both much greater particulate sources.
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(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b126/SVOlvo/DVC01497_zps24b7832c.jpg)
My airbox lid after 50K miles of K&N horror.
The radial marks are from the molding process.
EGR and PCV are probably both much greater particulate sources.
50k miles, and its still clean...
K&N filters are just fine.
EGR & PCV definitely clog your intake more than a K&N.
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After starting this thread, I feel a bit guilty - as I`m not using one. :-[
This will be the air filter I`m using http://fmsfilters.com/products/air-filters/46277 (http://fmsfilters.com/products/air-filters/46277)
Will be making an box to house it ( in my Mk1 Jetta 1.6td) - am thinking 8 inch Plastic pipe, or roll some stainless or maybe galvanized sheet metal.
They are about $12 per.
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Information shared just the same. I think WIX does a good job with their oil filters. If you see them cut apart along with others they have some of the nicer features.
Going to sponge wrap the filter and oil it? Just so you have the chance to do that as you now won't be putting on a K&N. LOL..
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Information shared just the same. I think WIX does a good job with their oil filters. If you see them cut apart along with others they have some of the nicer features.
Going to sponge wrap the filter and oil it? Just so you have the chance to do that as you now won't be putting on a K&N. LOL..
except for the fact the case isnt very thick or tough like a mann or K&N
my diesel makes the bottom of wix filters rounded, and bulge a bit..
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Information shared just the same. I think WIX does a good job with their oil filters. If you see them cut apart along with others they have some of the nicer features.
Going to sponge wrap the filter and oil it? Just so you have the chance to do that as you now won't be putting on a K&N. LOL..
:) Nope just gonna put a K&N Sticker on my window and i won't even get my hands oily - ;D
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After starting this thread, I feel a bit guilty - as I`m not using one. :-[
This will be the air filter I`m using http://fmsfilters.com/products/air-filters/46277 (http://fmsfilters.com/products/air-filters/46277)
Will be making an box to house it ( in my Mk1 Jetta 1.6td) - am thinking 8 inch Plastic pipe, or roll some stainless or maybe galvanized sheet metal.
They are about $12 per.
I've been running a prelude filter, and I would not recommend it. The filtering area is smaller than a stock TD filter.
I just ran the numbers on your link. It would be fine to run a 1.9n/a, but a TD requires significantly more air.
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You're right - ***! :-[
The prelude filter runs 135 cm, While the 1.6td is 215(ish) cfm.
Damn you INternets.... ;D
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You're right - ***! :-[
The prelude filter runs 135 cm, While the 1.6td is 215(ish) cfm.
Damn you INternets.... ;D
you want to run as BIG OF FILTER AS POSSIBLE!!
there is no such thing as too big of a filter..
Digifant and TDs used a substantially bigger filter than the CIS cars and n/a diesels..