VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: mortisetortoise on July 23, 2018, 11:41:23 pm
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Hello,
I took my van for a drive yesterday and the engine suddenly shut down. After being towed home and some trouble shooting, it looks like the timing belt tensioner pulley bolt sheared right off. Has anyone ever seen this happen? I cranked the engine a bunch of times trying to restart with the belt totally loose. Did I damage my valves?
Can anyone point me to part numbers and/or stores that sell the belt, tensioner pulley, and cover?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ObN20LgrOMiCu8kFWVfEFmZrZpnLw0lzBwNV70qD0EmPky9zYwOSAPWFSM4GiS2gVTxk28k7vsoJVPKz60d86I4WLzOy9XumZ9vcorVzuTCc7Pf7QNa_13vAuTuMUuroz0WfK9Wu9rgJLUMqpei20fY5H9Nnp30THeQjc5lKO03uRennremjjCrgpFAMsnQf_ePn33mTGFPSCf0eWWTPiniVE_esw9BSlJEIjFWQhfohkO4E15IE2o8c2fAQBbuz7iyFzXjd2485ASmGCgO9TjK_fOFhQsgSbXvaFpDpX9dBPO2mPLreILYirSyKIoQJQQF0DfgI1LRtx3tjON_EeT1NBAue8AXnFbNCAXfwcZVj3BphDf7gD7MNlR9DMG4BbRt_cbO2IatnBE-TAU8voxMf_krgzzUKPVl1JRdez-qcc0YjYPqsusnwRC7FPWLJZenoqbmOJ9Q_CdNZnXCi8MzYzu_VpHtVPENGP01cxP0IyNtG28xJcguS7n02CJqU02KlSiHLkWyojjQ2QcrVMjnxfsWRghxiriPopopqHjN50sQ2vPYfcVkGVCAm1VX8Eq3zXkuRJuR4vRZ9KsHmGNs_N2PSHDFqeum5L4wAgGQD8Jeryhr4pKX78CHt7FaXB8_4T-nrmWsoj-D4MFBYFA9Tm5-Ex_YQ8g=w736-h981-no)
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Yeah, unfortunately you definitely mashed valves. I haven't specifically seen that stud sheer off but stuff like that sometimes happens. Definitely pull the head. Look at the piston crowns for any valve impressions in the carbon. Replace any valves that made contact. When the head is off, check the combustion face of the head for cracks between the pre-chamber and exhaust valves.
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Thanks. I was afraid it could be bad. I will post updates here as I tear into it.
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Anyone know the best place to buy valves? I got one from tectonics tuning and I'm not sure i want to use it. The valve head is all rough and uneven and the base of the stem is also really rough. It looks almost like carbon buildup but its new... The face however is clean. Any issues?
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Call the vendor and talk to them about it.
I bet it wasn't cheap.
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It was $20. I ordered a new one from partsplace last night.
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But Techtonics Tuning should be refunding you some change as the part they provided clearly is not acceptable to you the customer.
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Ill email them some pics but cross border return shipping is usually more hassle then the refund. The valve seat looks fine just their finishing machining work is pretty horrible. Like i said the valve face is all ugly and the base of the valve stem looks like it has carbon buildup on it already lol. Id use it in a pinch but it doesnt give me much confidence in the quality of the part when it looks like crap.
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many of the oem 1.6 hydro valves had a coating on the face for heat exchange. I'm trying to remember if any of the TRW's I have bought over the years had that or not.
I really don't like parts place now days. I think that the valve they sold you (I went to their site to look at the offering) should be boxed with a small bowl of rice and a couple fish heads due to the probable point of origin.
But, hey....we need MORE islands built in the sea down there.
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Can anyone point me to part numbers and/or stores that sell the belt, tensioner pulley, and cover?
I'm curious why you are looking for the cover? Was your cover not in place?
You'll need to do a teardown before knowing what part numbers are needed. If a few valves are bent and lifters punched then you can likely get away with head gasket, valves, lifters, and a few other incidentals. If the pistons/rods are hammered beyond use, then it gets a lot more expensive. At that point, either a full rebuild or engine swap would be in order. If going for a replacement engine or full rebuild, you might consider going mTDI. If the block is usable, you can use it and the crank. I'm actually right now in the process of building an mTDI from an AAZ. Rods are dimensionally correct, but the TDI rods are stronger. The pistons need to be swapped. Also, needed are the head, injectors, and pump. I also prefer the added roller on the mk3 TDI's and so the pump bracket, timing covers, and backing plate need to be swapped to accommodate it.
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I listed the cover because when the pulley broke off it shot out of the bottom of the cover, shattering the lower part of it.
Update: Over the past few days I got all of the components off so that the head can be removed. I do not have the proper tool to remove the head bolts so I had to stop for the night and will search that out tomorrow.
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Update:
I got the head off and have removed the cam and lifters. i am waiting for a valve spring tool to get the valves out.
Upon initial inspection it does appear that there was some valve contact to all four pistons as evidenced by some minor witness marks.:
Cylinder 1:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/AD1pf_vv8NPTsLzAN2ghGtj-Aq0jsFDHbxAZoruPRLVMzFZg79asS_qXOe2S8Avo5D6ZsHbOgNQro2iNOfExxg3iqViTxjG7jgIzUyaKRfpR5dbx1th334vgW3yndwcluWKrlitTZRz9gk651YOAJyXE-enx77EX2RmFDNOZBSjOcR3cSDiDzIntPOBmOZj9lL1Zm2aAg5CNE-MBgbzyRMJ9IheB6sowHDcVUqsUWYKVSevE3oDyzn_nT5gFZ7u2DYG3pTAlOrmNsCR1s40v9XwwS-GkHJp6B795-YfzSxHN7BZYYzhCo_DAT22YOcb6QhnwH0CMQB3hfvIvoAcVEkdeoV8O3Vg3eirUIeckaaPxG3U6PhBkkhwgtxVccUuGJLsIOGA-iy-6v7RHQih2RqHS1irdH0NAcEIsna4JGpuuvPZ9DAmJXLbwhvS3RcmYvfCNdMR-svNyoZ1GgirvpCU3x4pQw81Lh9TSYO2YcDD9rwDVSdaVcRgJhAK6PPbUPSz5cJyeXuR4j8g71mwwJKAXVyfCVPzTm1q5I89eoL2EfbedK6M3ahZcOjw6clk9jgNAL9iXZtMzs9s36a9Sct98Z97MPY6YODdS_aZpIOxaF8VAaUdPwBhqGUsRgQgOxdu9uw8RF3Cm9eJq0KEtx-NqkkJC10ikFw=w739-h985-no)
Cylinder 2:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/bLPUMrCL5zU485e-0AIOFNZh8u9B8mTP5j6rReqTG8tUxcn98n_D9I3IBvLgLCiuTh8PUV5JSEapapzt0FYeWML6tCPVyXzCWBVs-64XsLqAPfuiTEe8w0z9zRRCN0iyjoiBcLLianEDA2c5Xhf7ZDdi4119DBjtnRo0ihhdmQ5YXKT4AoY25t77mMsdwimihiuzX-kipS_t_wEMXEyhNoqAe0c4UxPHWIrLa1CZDisLWifuelVzFnrdF4c5zpAiKeV13fxniwXRNBZATJEdVGXHrUcu21oC8uAqIBXlqsM4NQxyj14G6dduA4QvEfRJwj2hDXqjv-MmIxF9mMqfK4hmLQe46ObVYUuiGMyTitt259F88qA16SdXNbGNvxyTyB1eQ0vxfrPWbuK33YJ_MZgBy-9Wap1mM35xLroMuugROqvcN9dM68yPzB-zFEzOD6usGZlJlB7HQFvm1AIQbm9PuV1AQxBcmb3axA6iOVvDj2s92QnXgGchL-fjmUBk0OKu_1tyf-OOhhMTiyx4zJdeY6dg-g9386t85CTSS7WmAHT4RUN7IyhjrToQDUc_pevAMf3qbn9fcybGdAQyEhyqX1KKgentvtomsFCwUQNOVV26w0Uy21ishouDcS50ybHZBB8Cl3aUXlGa951vZQiXogMJjN2imQ=w739-h985-no)
Cylinder 3:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pxiRDdz4jqYnHDnA_aRq8wMJKjEYTa_vNbtQEV02pdGsvI5EAYr4CI8cwbj_sDyQvu5Y0l9vW6M0xEv4wc3A7jcvwAOBao3mOR4yBEx10h0xlL7oigq__YiyX82OqEEPOMjTMDnYn8nkxstnz_DccTYU6bO0pJ4f0fTHGQVEvg2NP0TBC5O9na4bE_VnXkPrE9JFI-zPvFYH5orw8uKFFe1N2xF5cloP1yxRDRpFuinahwiVeBl0O4w5yHQg71nclTOH2LH1Vd6W6FhxHp1XnNnaGpTGTlNXc-CHZsCdcIYlj_uBb3f1Qw8ddYRg_vr7UccZmyFU4B7q56dae6zEFI8se3OHdeQ7tVJuMIolOAMH_PDXuZMqeg8dedCFEfJwnvns_0y_AE8BKsAmwU5wN7jCXlWrduwePLTRCH46o04L389GmNaSf-CL8hYozZOkTVtSWi-i7e62wDJrmvFTlsrjFW028-Qs818H1Hnkf-X_1yKf9M0itoMY96aqmCP9I3faZweuhHWHXUhx151QldE6xC31rUzB0p6Q9gBQchUmrrGL-pRLFM0A_HzG6YyUak2F7NzeXh_N2WVqruyEDh3sS1cg528BfaIYZX_rO-QCMGXoOyA0UhcnPUQCC79BuO6CqY6mPKGTjdCmEUi-Aw0t0D9WeiSd6A=w739-h985-no)
Cylinder 4:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Fj59VR0tFjhOL3550BhgGKj2dooERQytdQODNNmeHCURv9xq7qKHdwXlJSd0u_BCmevWToehgMFe9iQyNYZgMtJ_XDfxL3D8kxCY0fiGi2QldPxQXHhoYbRWYkn-cwiWJdvI-gH_SyG3M5pZphceveA0LyKDBcf9Zp0RgU5JolHP2X2mdLgA9Tlb86WUpjaJfKQZMZKSt_-f10Viygbfj1s7U6a_iyTERKFbfoMURzNvfm2XGUUTjoFgZTnmnccXpjv3BwMcLXPblJxRR8wvfKYOZUJJRKTjJyh6uRedM6PhxhLx6_gLJ0NsaYPvOcLDdus6umIfElIRadovZzYyegJ2tUwIW5kWXW-CzSEqXM8peAzuYkxasUUKq8ciEKoEbRrpyVKUNdWkdV1ezG8-y6CVVA13DzUL-jx7XYBn8H_GLDgZh08FxcMnU86vjwkmA9hFZRebtuGVghV3pSQ4YURqsveYP_i1nmTt4LDy6Iz-CPr0wpLaEJ7GU0fkCURzMeA-mHuDeYJDeYq61mkb9mQAH4H-qcv27CzSo346tYl2iOyTxTqRgWDvCqCjttHPVMWKW04kz9zhXQHNYqB-lRIr3Yg0be8tyQzFk-Oi7QUxcFsz0UqjUYhwD1PbW4HsDGvXoxsHlNV4v_PQbQr-jMnPMma_g9I3ew=w739-h985-no)
The other noticeable damage is to the cylinder 4 exhaust lifter. It looks like the valve stem broke through it:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zobzmXcAEIQsNnAaSwydD8DpMqJIgNFd3sOnRfPZMydDQQ9ziR0g7L9WN2qvuozckJ4qjzmm4tChEoDo7LC8edNgnfzEXnwULsRXJDgAYvlod0Oiw40UdSOSdq-Gq2wRxPc-0tyoUWKanwAUoxD1ODY3KDUcsbQF1a17RgRPtdqmIxVTpcCdinRcs52Wx9yVn25GUA9mlLHdiG404gPRNyCax63eqgy8UOOeyxMsulMGIAO-2nzpLlcB4mQVjh3ZoNqm1vpRP7mmutgkyk12qtZ-EZ0-GnfjNexviUZl-vGXCNU03g1nf2md9M23H-WojqrTQs0nMtRYSXq-tWbJd1OZw0PXvte-t141-hum914jMIN_x6iN76vUma0rK_NcNq6jQT9u2pkjzG1Xj7DtHQu-iOwJ9PA3f8yNVXk9wR1xbqqo3QX7wbPCe_s90EsS0h07V02zPIk4RxQkwdCD7jKKG8Gr6SN_0Im9nSGRKEJ_7YByOiNgnx4xjETzIoeb7f7kwOcwgvczejG7lruQl3irRmb57OuXECKh2kLTjvvUAYM9_S5P4Px3iBOxitBh9e48UlRJ0cEgZSOsoU2L5IdUjDjhfS3-06us-ux9s0407tr_Hjbv-xmBgOpL5das0aNH0AYr5_ycG_SNkP3v_w2lwOWhQPrBzw=w739-h985-no)
Of note: I also found that one of three bolts holding the turbo on was missing and there was no gasket there, allowing exhaust gasses to leak out and likely reducing boost.
So my plan now is to get the valves out and check them all for being bent as well as checking the seats. Should I go ahead and replace them all as well as all of the lifters? Also, can someone recommend a good site to order parts?
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None of your pics work. Try Imgur.
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Absolutely most definitely replace any valves that contacted the pistons. It does not matter if they appear to be straight or not. Replace them. The head's have a tendency to fall of a couple/few thousand miles later.
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Trying to fix the pics above. Here they are in a shared album:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/tgCZeDmuUy12eabf7
Let me know if it doesn't work.
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Now I can see the pics in your update - I still can't see the one in your initial post.
That's not as bad as it could be. Do the pistons all still protrude similarly above the head gasket surface?
Again, replace all that show contact. I'd probably replace all 8 and all the lifters but that's just the way I like to do things. If you aren't going to replace all the lifters, inspect the tops very closely for cracks or any irregularity in their surface. ID Parts is currently selling a set of lifters for $60 which is a decent deal. I'm not sure if the AAZ valves are the same size as the AHU. You also need to know whether your stems are 7mm or 8mm. AAZ came with either.
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I now have gotten the valve springs off and most of the valves out.
The exhaust valve of piston 4 was stuck slighty open after removing the spring. When trying to remove, it gets jammed into its guide. Its lifter is the one with the shattered valve contact face. This valve definitely took a good hit.
The other valves all slid out easily and do not look bent.
I sourced a rebuilt head for a great deal and am gathering the other parts for the rebuild. I will get the engine going again with the fresh one then slowly rebuild this one for a spare.
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Sounds like a good plan.
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Are you sure it's a good deal? Where is it from?
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Are you sure it's a good deal? Where is it from?
^^^ Agreed - there is some bad stuff available for a lot less than the typical Klobenschmidt $1000. Not saying there aren't good deals on good heads - just need to make sure.
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Somebody on the samba sent me the contact of a seller that he had recently purchased an AAZ engine from. He had an extra rebuilt head and was trying to sell it as he is moving and clearing out parts. The head looks practically new with all new valvetrain components and fresh machined surfaces. He even through in a Corrado valve cover that he had adapted plus some gaskets and new head bolts.
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Cool - there's some good folks on the Samba
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Update:
I am now in the process of reassembling as parts come in. I received both types of belt tensioning pulleys and their correct studs. Does anyone know if the later one is any better? The smaller stud worries me as the stud is the thing that caused me this problem in the first place. (I do not know which was on there orginally)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/0QxEqbeSNfRUDSUaQzWd2ljx2r7WTJ6pM77iSAMaGi5XmwdnehL4KTFfKDUPAOjvgPxu8M3l2s0QiDmrvfKFMz65C3MEj5ycKi21vAO8DOhQBbAZB_4-Zo-5BywQNlUkWza4HOLc2SlQOhM8ggBXVNgnkWj3x4z_ATUJK1JNTdKUg1WE67ESCSB538kHxygH_yCOWb3NW_9nEQYKEwmpKnU8Pq_0g7zZtg4h0tLyEkaoqOtxYBAD__Q6U3dKkGAQoWoqRDBGJE_1uBxjbonIM5SAr2meON56HLDfXIiZwXmSKx9ChotQDhjkKRO8Axc4I-DT3vT2IRbh9e76hVj6wxM215QqW4zdITkvYTQkbh8Op7EbFLVpF9qpT-HTEsJ0l243C_q7qVN8q9XxXFe2AZkqQovWMxZMr6hFNZcjWgJcoNp4spJJHbkFcGtrQhh8Qup31hrMGgyloY45SDJIt_MuqKC83U8519liDa0IpSF_qZnqUuiZQL0zTi_wqjzExx4CtoYLCvPY7fK_XLvdSv4sbdUejTnfcYi0ccJNbKR7UaL2GlZ_eawfAakW_0VCtPhyiOrMwpLEZSPhDABnKxi-1Dcza7C6fLttRSB1RM5JpqazrNECPLpVDQ3qqadhvl4NXsMxCXQxsC7oJrI_crKvnZqe4t2wSw=w1308-h981-no)
Also, I have not removed any pistons. Does anyone think it is worth pulling them out to further inspect? I have removed the oil pan to look from below and cannot see any visible damage.
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I think that either style of tensioner is fine. I haven't heard of anyone else having the tensioner stud break. Kind of a fluke. I wouldn't worry about either stud. I believe you need to correct slotted hole in the timing belt backing plate in order to run the later style. I can't tell from your pics which version you have. Your pistons do not look badly hit. Look to make sure they all protrude above the head gasket surface when they are at TDC. You can also sight up the rods if the pan is off to make sure none are bent. Most likely all is fine with them, though.
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Update:
Good progress so far but ran into another problem. I finally got my last parts (new nut and belt tensioning gauge). I set the tension to 13 marks on the gauge and when I went to torque the nut to 33ft/lb, per bentley, the stud just stripped. >:( Do I have the wrong spec?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/mHWhNunpEPjjA6uXA
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/7zJ4dfUZWhMWshYMCu0Fa0hYHSV65LTaVtv5vFPwNLbeR3_rLQYd8jc7fFeMNNnhd_s__wYbkrw56vFX52K9WlocSUBFckWUxPdOhuuieBhHqsrQJWNAJAiL-nku_tLV8oYaWkbYX7KJ6bRSuDOmYOOSsFFVt3eziztitoqlnLBJ-guCUmFFDlOcdMIXNIBYuzeVPdYIDIcbwwONnbK-TFwPnJoh460U-QMiLfkCGm4EjAf9aO3Qe238869iUaGLjXWtj7AXtU3UAd5VQ_DjW0fEd13fKj65s1eS-lg84gvRrE7-AU_t3zbUFBwMGOHDQq6naAVw1gxWwFCDzC52aZQ-q2I5Qs4nQiFzHkk7-ZsfkYWwvFWRVlPQ69wAQLWBE1XJH8KTWLk-LStnVn_sPbTmiX_l_XmSRvb6ckm5gzIhUu6wWKZkoTKEZHgLyheb6j6cajoAYyGgUX6PCj6OtDhEd0uhYeF6aDU9iCgwJoOZxBs_d09kGaUSIj-y07DhA8Py4ioCD1Yo-669bzlzmekRvaLjQ8OyhWP_0ElNZXrDbZHWmFdJTQYhzUDwqVHFY-ccmsJvF0fNk19YzUnrkE4YOb8F1JTnn_Ia7by2IlGZSRQLYXe8L1R73M2YYb_D=w1308-h981-no)
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Your new pic isn't showing up for me. :)
If you have the m8 stud with the 13mm nut then IIRC the spec is 18 ft-lbs.
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Thanks.
I need to get better with these pics huh? Gotta find a good way to do it from google photos. Basically, the threads on the end of the stud are fully stripped. I've already ordered replacements and will make sure to torque correctly. This may have been why I had this failure in the first place. Whoever installed the last pulley may have been using the higher spec and started to shear the stud
Yes I do have the M8 stud. 18ft-lb sounds much more reasonable.
I wonder why I haven't been able to find that spec anywhere. Do you know what year they switched over to the M8 stud?
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33 ft/lb is the the older 1.6 diesels.
That stud is M10. There's several cases of threads in the aluminum head getting stripped out with those, I had mine strip out a previous owners helicoil - very disturbing to discover. Ended up using a E-Z Lock insert to fix the head, not a ez job on the car but worked great.
Anyway that's probably why VW switched to a different style stud.
The m8 studs have a few cases of just snapping off like that though, seems like not a good trade off.
I wonder if anyone has used a 10mm tensioner pulley instead to be able to use a straight 10mm stud.
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Imgur is free and easy to use for hosting. When uploading be sure to select the 'auto-resize' option and choose the size for message boards.
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I'm not sure where you are seeing 33 ft-lbs for stated for m8 AAZ tensioner locknut. I don't have the Mk3 Bentley here at the moment. I do have a Mk3 Haynes which says the timing belt tensioner locknut torque spec is 15 ft-lbs. I have the Mk4 Bentley here which says the same 15 ft-lbs for the timing belt tensioner locknut and uses the same style m8 stud and locknut. I was going from memory when I stated 18 ft-lbs and apparently my memory was faulty.
The upside to the later spring-loaded tensioner is that it is easier to get the belt tension correct. It's still easy to get it wrong if the wrong procedure is used, but it's easier to get correct than the m10 style. There is a tendency with the earlier tensioners to seriously over-tighten the belt which causes serious problems. The downside to the later tensioner is that it is a more complicated piece and so more prone to failure.
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Thanks Libbydiesel.
I cut the AAZ pages from a Bently I found and cannot remember which years it covered. I will ammend.
(https://imgur.com/a/gaZjJjn)
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Conclusion:
I got the replacement stud and installed the timing belt tensioner to 15fto. I then buttoned everythig els up wi new gaskets and fasters where needed. Quickly fixed a poped glow plug fuse, then started it right up. Everything seems great after a few dozen miles around own over the past couple weeks. Thanks for all the advice and helping through this project. I now know a ton more about this engine. Old VWs have a way with gifting the knowledge. Hhaha.
Here is a link to a photo album of the projec: https://photos.app.goo.gl/tgCZeDmuUy12eabf7
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Awesome! I saw your Bentley pic and the 33 spec is for the m10 stud. That's a crap move on their part. Anyway, glad it is sorted.